Cuba US: John Kerry reopens Havana embassy on historic trip

[Sonereal]

Who's "talking point" is that?

• Defending Cuba ☑
• Justifications for Cuba's support of rebels in Africa ☑
• "corrupt fascist puppet dictatorship" ☑
• mention of military-industrial complex ☑
• Hyperbolic use of the word "defraud" ☑
• Poor Little Cuba Narrative ☑
• Evil American Capitalist Empire. Implied heavily. Tentative ☑

 

[Formaldehyde]

In other words, you don't seem to know what the phrase "talking point" really means. That is is just "hyperbolic" nonsense merely because you have a different personal opinion.

 

[Sonereal]

In other words, you don't seem to know what the phrase "talking points" really mean.

Passive Aggression ☑

That is is just "hyperbolic" nonsense merely because you have a different personal opinion.

I don't think you know what "hyperbolic" means.

I'm just pointing out that half the things you're throwing out there were so completely unrelated with the topic of the thread that it is like reading a 50 Cent Party's posting on a thread about China's economic performance lately.

Like man, just be happy about embassies and stuff. I'm happy, why can't you??

 

[Formaldehyde]

Why don't you try discussing the issues instead of me?

Do you actually support the reprehensible acts committed against the people of Cuba by the US government merely because they finally deposed our puppet fascist dictator?

Do you think a free and open democracy has any right to repeatedly try to assassinate a leader of sovereign government?

Do you think the people of a country should be punished with decades of sanctions and embargoes that literally ruin their economy merely because they have a different form of government?

 

[Sonereal]

Why don't you try discussing the issues instead of me?

The issue is that there's no actual substance to your points other than bizarre rants about the military-industrial complex out of left field.

Do you actually support the reprehensible acts committed against the people of Cuba by the US government?

Anybody in our position would've done the same. We do what we must because we can.

So yes. Confidently, I support even the morally objectionable things we've done and continue to do to Cuba because, simply put, they're not playing ball. This is an US hemisphere; Cuba's just living in it.

Do you think the people of a country should be punished with decades of sanctions and embargoes that literally ruin their economy merely because they have a different form of government?

Yes.

Do you think a free and open democracy has any right to repeatedly try to assassinate a leader of sovereign government?

Cuba didn't meet the US definition of sovereign at the time.

 

[Formaldehyde]

See, that wasn't so hard. Was it?

I find it incredibly ironic that you characterize my statements as "bizarre rants" after rationalizing and defending the indefensible, especially since it was a Republican president of the United States who warned the country about the military-industrial complex.

And the US doesn't get to decide what the definition of "sovereign" means, not that they actually did so in this case anyway.

 

[Sonereal]

And I find it incredibly ironic that you characterize my statements as "bizarre rants" after rationalizing and defending the indefensible, especially since it was a Republican president of the United States who warned the country about the military-industrial complex.

Nothing is really indefensible unless you let it be. I, for one, can justify, defend, and praise US action against Cuba the same way I am now justifying, defending, and praising US rapprochement.

As for the military-industrial complex, unless there's an arms factory in the US embassy in Havana, it doesn't seem relevant.

And the US doesn't get to decide what the definition of "sovereign" means, not that they actually did so in this case anyway.

Of course we can. When you have the most guns, the best guns, and the willingness to use said guns, you can define anything anyway you want.

I also find it very upsetting that apparently the brave people and workers of the military-industrial complex are somehow the bad guys. What about the hospital-insurance company complex or the university-bookstore complex? Unlike the military-industrial complex, those things actually affect me in my daily life in a meaningful way I care about.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nothing is really indefensible unless you let it be. I, for one, can justify, defend, and praise US action against Cuba the same way I am now justifying, defending, and praising US rapprochement.

I didn't claim it was indefensible to you. I am claiming it is indefensible to me and any sort of rational evaluation of the matter. History will eventually decide which of us is right.

As for the military-industrial complex, unless there's an arms factory in the US embassy in Havana, it doesn't seem relevant.

You don't seem to know what that phrase means, especially given the next statement:

Of course we can. When you have the most guns, the best guns, and the willingness to use said guns, you can define anything anyway you want.

That's what I'm talking about. There is no moral basis for such sheer warmongering arrogance. That is just the wet dream of authoritarian conservatives who think might makes right.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Three marines who lowered the American flag for the last time on 4 January 1961 raised it again during Friday's historic ceremony in Havana. They are now retired and in their late 70s.

Actually, they handed over a flag (not the same one...or was it...dunno) to the three current marines who raised it. It was a very cool ceremony. Kind of a changing of the guard thing.

 

[Sonereal]

I didn't claim it was indefensible to you. I am claiming it is indefensible to me and any sort of rational evaluation of the matter. History will eventually decide which of us is right.

Given Cuba came to the US begging the US to open ties because Venezuela's failed socialist is collapsing kinda points to me being on the right side of history right now.

You don't seem to know what that phrase means, especially given the next statement:

Phrases are just words with meanings.

That's what I'm talking about. There is no moral basis for such sheer warmongering arrogance. That is just the wet dream of authoritarian conservatives who think might makes right.

There's a moral basis for everything if you believe hard enough. .

Might does make right though. Jack and Jim our neighbors. Jack says that Jim's dog is trespassing on his lawn. Jim says it isn't. Jack calls the cops and the cops shoots Jim's dog. Because Jim's position was morally unjust, his dog is dead.

 

[classical_hero]

Any time the phrase "military-industrial complex" is spoken, I automatically ignore them since it is a stupid phrase spoken by those who don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Any time the phrase "military-industrial complex" is spoken, I automatically ignore them since it is a stupid phrase spoken by those who don't know what they are talking about.

Interesting. John Kenneth Galbraith didn't know what he was talking about. You heard it here first.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Given Cuba came to the US begging the US to open ties because Venezuela's failed socialist is collapsing kinda points to me being on the right side of history right now.

What sort of lame excuse for literally ruining the lives of millions of innocent people over the course of over 50 years is that?

Phrases are just words with meanings.

Yet you think my uses of those phrases and words is "hyperbole" while yours are not merely because you personally disagree with my own opinions.

Might does make right though.

I think that fairly well summarizes the problem. If Cuba was the one with the stronger army they would be "right".

 

[Gucumatz]

Opening the embassy and easing the relationship are all right moves when it comes to Cuba. Governmental rule in Cuba is quite different from how it was 20 years ago - and within 10 years "communist" Cuba may only be communist in name, the need for any real degree of hostility is long gone

Here's to the new embassy and peace in a new age!

 

[Agent327]

Yes. Internal change is rarely fueled by embargoes. Or economic sanctions in general, for that matter. But I guess this little discussion explains why the embargo remained so long in place, long after it had become clear its effect on regime change was non-existent.

Any time the phrase "military-industrial complex" is spoken, I automatically ignore them since it is a stupid phrase spoken by those who don't know what they are talking about.

It was coined by Dwight D. Eisenhower SC/CIC.

 

[red_elk]

What sort of lame excuse for literally ruining the lives of millions of innocent people over the course of over 50 years is that?

I think Cuba deserves admiration for not backing down to bullying and for demonstrating to the world that the guys with big guns are powerless to depose their government. As for ruining their lives - I've been there, it's true that they are quite poor and could be better off without embargo, but comparing to their neighbors in Caribbean they are doing pretty well. I wish all the best to their country and people, and hope to visit them again.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Just think how much better off they would have been if their economy had not been deliberately crippled by the US government, which felt it couldn't afford a socialism success story in this hemisphere under any circumstances.

The so-called Cold War was such a waste of massive amounts of financial resources that could have been used to for far better things than being irrationally afraid of a different form of government. Fears which led to supporting fascist puppet dictatorships all over Latin America which tortured and murdered its own citizens as a matter of course, and with the full approval and even training on how to best do it provided by the US government.

History will not be kind to us in this regard.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I don't think anyone has any warm feelings for most politicians during the Cold War era.

"Hey, remember this stretch of 45 years in which two countries owned enough nukes to end the world twice over? And on several occasions, nearly did? Yeah, maybe that sucked."

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Been there too. Nice country with nice intelligent people. Mostly without a nickel but happy though, something richer people in the prepotent north cant even understand. Love how they have pissed US all these decades and the obvious impotence and frustration for not being able to make his will there in an island which is not only in 'his hemisphere' lol but at few kms off the very US coast.

 

[red_elk]

Just think how much better off they would have been if their economy had not been deliberately crippled by the US government, which felt it couldn't afford a socialism success story in this hemisphere under any circumstances.

You are right. Whatever declared goals of embargo are, in reality it is merely a revenge for not complying. It is making an ordinary people's lives worse, but unable to change the government.