Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[fabe]

...so representing the Prussians as the Germans as they ethnically and linguistically are makes more sense!

Sorry, but this is just wrong
As Leoreth mentioned before, the Prussians are a power that raised outside of German/HRE regions. Prussia itself is located in the Baltics and northern Poland. The only reason Prussia has become a power in the HRE is, that the "Kurfürst" of Brandenburg (inside of German/HRE territory) was also Duke of Prussia (outside of German/HRE territory). The duchy of Prussia was part of the Polish kingdom until 1657. So the King of Poland was liege of the Duke of Prussia, and the holy-roman emperor was liege of the "Kurfürst" of Brandenburg (what a mess... )Austria is the dominating cultural power of at least the southern German regions as Bavaria, Swabia and Franconia.
I would go with that:
The HRE and Prussia as playable mid-European Civs.
The HRE with "normal" start like now at 800 AD with capital Vienna. In 1700 switch the name to "Austrian Empire" or "Austrian-Hungary Empire".
In 1700 would Prussia spawn with Königsberg (capital of Prussia) and Berlin (capital of Brandenburg, later of both). Why 1700? In 1700, Prussia became a Kingdom. As the Prussians were known as a very strong military power, they should get a strong offensive army to be able to conquer the "German" cities of Austria, like Hamburg, Frankfurt and Krakow, which should by now be controlled by the Austrians. The Austrians then can go south towards the Ottomans, as mentioned before.
I would love this, because it would fit perfectly in the historical, regional and playable matters. Prussia rambling against Austria in the South, France in the West and Russia in the East, Austria rambling against the Prussians in the North, Russia in the East and the Ottomans in the South

 

[The Turk]

Ya, but Austria never controlled Germany anyway, so I don't understand how that would work? Not to mention Austria is a MUCH older country than Prussia is, in fact Austria still exists today! While Prussia absorbed the rest of Germany and became Germany itself so I don't understand why you won't seperate the German people from the Austrian people? Not to mention the Austrians could also settle the Hungarian areas and the Balkans, areas which the Germans never had any semblance of power (for very long at least), not to mention Austria also expanded into Northern Italy, another place Prussia never expanded to. If you ask me Prussia/Germany is totally different from the Austrians civilization. You can just have the Germans collapse, and then respawn in Berlin, and call them the "unified" German state, you can skip over the whole "Prussian" unification, and just have them rise to create the German state, and have the Austrians as good allies, for future wars. I think that would be a much better deal, then having a Holy Roman Empire Civilization and a German/Prussian Civilization, when in fact they were pretty much the same culturally and linguistically, not to mention the German unification was CALLED the "Second Reich" after the collapse of the FIRST German reich (the HRE).
So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add the Austrians instead!

We can have a vote if you want?

 

[fabe]

Sorry Turk, but in my opinion (as I am German and studying in the 3rd year to become a historian ), I would rather go with the spawning Prussia. I would like to explain it in details, but I simply don't have the time, so I would refer you to other sources of information about this topic

 

[Jarkov]

As an Austrian, I have to agree with fabe. Seeing that after a while the emperor of the HRE was usually from Habsburg, it makes more sense to have the HRE represent what later becomes just Austria.
The HRE, as well as Austria, expanded into Italy, and Austria, as "member" of the HRE, expanded into Hungary and the Balkans as well.

 

[Ekolite]

I agree. The Holy Roman Empire/Austria can rule Germany for the early middle ages, and then Prussia can spawn in the Baltic or Poland and conquer or flip much of Germany. This leaves a modern unified Germany (as per history), and Austria which can then fight the Turks in the South.

Prussia should definitely be the country to spawn. Might also be an idea for their capital to move to Germany once they've conquered it.

 

[Sir Tornado]

I can't seem to select Italy in 600 AD start. However, I can select some other civ and then switch over to Italy later when Italy spawns. Does this problem affect everyone or is there something wrong with me?

 

[fireclaw722]

Ya, but Austria never controlled Austria anyway, so I don't understand how that would work? Not to mention Austria is a MUCH older country than Prussia is, in fact Austria still exists today! While Prussia absorbed the rest of Germany and became Germany itself so I don't understand why you won't seperate the German people from the Austrian people? Not to mention the Austrians could also settle the Hungarian areas and the Balkans, areas which the Germans never had any semblance of power (for very long at least), not to mention Austria also expanded into Northern Italy, another place Prussia never expanded to. If you ask me Prussia/Germany is totally different from the Austrians civilization. You can just have the Germans collapse, and then respawn in Berlin, and call them the "unified" German state, you can skip over the whole "Prussian" unification, and just have them rise to create the German state, and have the Austrians as good allies, for future wars. I think that would be a much better deal, then having a Holy Roman Empire Civilization and a German/Prussian Civilization, when in fact they were pretty much the same culturally and linguistically, not to mention the German unification was CALLED the "Second Reich" after the collapse of the FIRST German reich (the HRE).
So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add the Austrians instead!

We can have a vote if you want?

Looks like most, if not everyone, is putting their vote towards Prussia to Germany/HRE to Austria.

I can't seem to select Italy in 600 AD start. However, I can select some other civ and then switch over to Italy later when Italy spawns. Does this problem affect everyone or is there something wrong with me?

It is supposed to be that way, hopefully Leoreth(or someone else) can find a way to change that.

 

[KMRblue1027]

I can't seem to select Italy in 600 AD start. However, I can select some other civ and then switch over to Italy later when Italy spawns. Does this problem affect everyone or is there something wrong with me?

This is an unfortunate side effect to Italy and Rome being the same player. Currently there is no work around.

 

[Leoreth]

Ya, but Austria never controlled Austria anyway, so I don't understand how that would work?

Austria didn't control Austria? I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

Not to mention Austria is a MUCH older country than Prussia is, in fact Austria still exists today!

Wouldn't that be an argument to have the civ that also represents Austria spawn earlier?

While Prussia absorbed the rest of Germany and became Germany itself so I don't understand why you won't seperate the German people from the Austrian people?

You make the mistake of equating the HRE to "Germany", while modern Germany since 1871 really only has few things in common with the HRE. The Prussian "German Empire" or whatever will then be Germany, while the former HRE civ will then be Austria, so they are perfectly separated. The difference just doesn't make much sense before the Prussians appeared on the scene and challenged the Austrian dominance and the notion that Germany had to define itself within the HRE.

Not to mention the Austrians could also settle the Hungarian areas and the Balkans, areas which the Germans never had any semblance of power (for very long at least), not to mention Austria also expanded into Northern Italy, another place Prussia never expanded to.

This is where the current HRE already expands. Prussia spawning and taking over northern Germany therefore produces exactly the situation you're going for.

If you ask me Prussia/Germany is totally different from the Austrians civilization.

Prussia is different from Austria, sure. Germany? Difficult to say. Todays Bavarians have more in common with Austrians than with Northern Germans, both ethnically and linguistically, whatever that's supposed to mean in this context.

During the time of the HRE, there was no common notion of what defined as "German". People defined themselves more through their respective petty states, and only in the 19th century, after the empire was already dissolved, people developed a German identity. The Austrians as well, by the way (the Habsburgs just were better in suppressing it). It was only after 1918 that the Austrians started to define themselves as a nation separate from Germany, and not just Germans living under a different dynasty.

You can just have the Germans collapse, and then respawn in Berlin, and call them the "unified" German state, you can skip over the whole "Prussian" unification, and just have them rise to create the German state, and have the Austrians as good allies, for future wars.

The fact that you think of Prussia and Austria as allies tells me you should probably have a reread on 18th and 19th century European history.

I think that would be a much better deal, then having a Holy Roman Empire Civilization and a German/Prussian Civilization, when in fact they were pretty much the same culturally and linguistically,

What I said above applies here as well. You can't make out a homogenous culture or language for the HRE, so it's impossible to say to whom they were closer. Not to say this is a pretty nationalist take on the matter anyway, while it's more the actual political situation that mattered.

not to mention the German unification was CALLED the "Second Reich" after the collapse of the FIRST German reich (the HRE).

No one called it the Second Reich while it still existed. The term was coined by the Nazis (and that only by some and never officially) to derive some legitimacy of their precursors, the German Empire and especially the HRE. They simply loved ancient and medieval references in everything they did. And for some reasons, historians went along with that term. But the term itself is anachronistic, just like "Byzantine Empire" and the like, and proves nothing.

We can have a vote if you want?

Notify me when polls override historical reasoning. Until that, no.

I can't seem to select Italy in 600 AD start. However, I can select some other civ and then switch over to Italy later when Italy spawns. Does this problem affect everyone or is there something wrong with me?

That's the way it works currently. The reason for that is that Italy and Rome share the same slot, so you can't play the game as Italy from the start and instead have to wait to switch until they "respawn".

 

[Jarkov]

Prussia is different from Austria, sure. Germany? Difficult to say. Todays Bavarians have more in common with Austrians than with Northern Germans, both ethnically and linguistically, whatever that's supposed to mean in this context.

During the time of the HRE, there was no common notion of what defined as "German". People defined themselves more through their respective petty states, and only in the 19th century, after the empire was already dissolved, people developed a German identity. The Austrians as well, by the way (the Habsburgs just were better in suppressing it). It was only after 1918 that the Austrians started to define themselves as a nation separate from Germany, and not just Germans living under a different dynasty.

The Habsburgs didn't suppress a German "identity building" in Austria. Hadn't the Prussians won in 1866, there would have been a "Großdeutsche Lösung", with Austria ruling over what became Germany.
That Austrians percieve themselves being different from the Germans wasn't after 1945.

 

[The Turk]

The Habsburgs didn't suppress a German "identity building" in Austria. Hadn't the Prussians won in 1866, there would have been a "Großdeutsche Lösung", with Austria ruling over what became Germany.
That Austrians percieve themselves being different from the Germans wasn't after 1945.

Thats exactly my point! Prussia becomes Germany, Germany is Prussia, but Austria becomes its own country, and still to-today Austria is its own country. Why can't you see that the HRE = Germany, you've had all three reichs in Germany starting with the Holy Roman Empire. It makes much more sense to have Austria and a separate Germany, because their histories are completely different. And whoops, I meant to say that AUSTRIA never controlled all of Germany! It makes a lot more sense to have a Germany which spawns in Aachen (I have yet to test that out), and then collapses and respawns in Berlin. Sorry but Prussia is not that important of a civilization compared to Austria, not to mention Prussia, as you said, became Germany, so why do you need to have a Holy Roman Empire civilization and a German/Prussian civilization? I think in the scope of world history, which this game represents, Prussia unifying Germany does not need to be represented, it can just be represented by a respawn of the GERMAN civilization, which encompasses Prussia as well, but starts off as the HRE, while Austria, in its own right, is its own civilization, with different people and the such.

And can someone PLEASE tell me WHERE (as in which coordinates) would the city of Krakow be placed! Sorry but my Polish geography is not too great, so if someone could please help me with this, I would appreciate it! Thanks

 

[Leoreth]

The Habsburgs didn't suppress a German "identity building" in Austria. Hadn't the Prussians won in 1866, there would have been a "Großdeutsche Lösung", with Austria ruling over what became Germany.
That Austrians percieve themselves being different from the Germans wasn't after 1945.

I was referring to the Habsburg attempts to suppress any movements towards a unified nation state - of course the Hohenzollerns did the same, and the smaller countries were following them. Thanks for the clarification on the Austrian identity.

Thats exactly my point! Prussia becomes Germany, Germany is Prussia, but Austria becomes its own country, and still to-today Austria is its own country. Why can't you see that the HRE = Germany, you've had all three reichs in Germany starting with the Holy Roman Empire. It makes much more sense to have Austria and a separate Germany, because their histories are completely different. And whoops, I meant to say that AUSTRIA never controlled all of Germany!

That's not all what he said, and you don't seem to have read my post at all. Do I have to fall back to your way of writing to convey this to you? YOU ARE WRONG.

The HRE doesn't equal Germany at all, at least not how we understand it today. There wasn't even a concrete notion of what Germany even meant during the era of the HRE. Setting them both equal is only something that superficial hobby historians and games striving for simplicity do.

And please stop referring to the "three reichs" like there was anything special to them. The so called "First Reich", known to proper historians as Holy Roman Empire, was even centered in Austria for 400 years, for crying out loud!

And their histories ARE NOT completely different. Austria was a state within the Holy Roman Empire just like many other German states as well, with no extraordinary rank, it wasn't even an electorate (which Brandenburg, Prussia's predecessor, by the way, was). Its inhabitants didn't consider themselves more or less German than those of other states. Right until the HRE started dissolving, you can make no objective distinction between Austrian and German history.

And though we can argue about how much power the emperor really had, at least nominally Austria controlled Germany (whatever this means in this context, I suppose you mean Germany's current area) - they were freaking Holy Roman Emperors for 400 years!

It makes a lot more sense to have a Germany which spawns in Aachen (I have yet to test that out), and then collapses and respawns in Berlin. Sorry but Prussia is not that important of a civilization compared to Austria,

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense.

not to mention Prussia, as you said, became Germany, so why do you need to have a Holy Roman Empire civilization and a German/Prussian civilization?

There will never be both Germany and a Holy Roman Empire.

I think in the scope of world history, which this game represents, Prussia unifying Germany does not need to be represented, it can just be represented by a respawn of the GERMAN civilization, which encompasses Prussia as well, but starts off as the HRE, while Austria, in its own right, is its own civilization, with different people and the such.

It is not, at least not before 1945, as we've repeatedly told you.

And can someone PLEASE tell me WHERE (as in which coordinates) would the city of Krakow be placed! Sorry but my Polish geography is not too great, so if someone could please help me with this, I would appreciate it! Thanks

It's already in the city maps.

 

[AdrienIer]

Is it just me or are you trying to teach Leoreth, a German modder, about German history and how to deal with it gamewise ? in both cases it's quite useless : he's the modder so he wins on how things work out in the end, and he's German so he's probably the person here who has the best chances of knowing German history.

 

[Sir Tornado]

It is supposed to be that way, hopefully Leoreth(or someone else) can find a way to change that.

This is an unfortunate side effect to Italy and Rome being the same player. Currently there is no work around.

That's the way it works currently. The reason for that is that Italy and Rome share the same slot, so you can't play the game as Italy from the start and instead have to wait to switch until they "respawn".

Thanks. And thanks to Leoreth too for this great mod. I tried to read this thread in it's entirety, but 103 pages was a bit too much...

 

[fabe]

YOU ARE WRONG.

I simply can't add anything, you're 100% right...

...but I have to

As Leoreth mentioned, there was nothing like "Germans" until the 1900th century. In central Europe there was from 10th century up to 1806 a federal union of independant states ruled by an elected leader (the emperor of the HRE), called first the "Holy Empire" (sacrum imperium), later the "Holy Roman Empire" (sacrum romanum imperium) and since ~1500 "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation" (sacrum romanum imperium nationis germanicæ). The name affix "of the German nation" was only added, because most of the people spoke German dialects. But still now there are many different dialects in Germany. Someone from southern Germany has REALLY problems understanding someone from northern Germany, and vice versa. This was yet very much harder in the middle ages. There was nothing like even a German language until Martin Luther translated the Bible in the 1600th century, trying to write in an understated form of his own dialect.

The HRE was ruled by an elected emperor, but usually the son of the late emperor was elected, so in fact, there were dynasties, like the Staufers or Habsburgs. Interesting fact: emperor Friedrich II. of Staufen (Castle Hohenstaufen is near Stuttgart in southern Germany) was born in Palermo in the 12th century. Even though he spoke about 5 languages, he couldn't speak German.
So there were some dynasties ruling the HRE. The most important dynastie was the Habsburgs, ruling for about 400 years until the HRE was dissolved in 1806 due to Napoleon Bonaparte's pressure. There hasn't really been another dynastie ruling for more than roughly 100 years, so it is obvious to see the Habsburgs as THE emperors of the HRE per se.
Another interesting fact: Castle Habsburg was located in (today's) Switzerland, not even close to former and today's Austria.

Prussia raised in the late 17th century in the Baltics, between Russia and Poland, Prussia was even a part of Poland. Prussia has nothing really to do with the HRE / Germany until the late 1800th century. It wasn't part of the HRE. It's only attachment to the HRE was, that the monarchs of Brandenburg (which was part of the HRE) since the 1600th century also were Prussian Dukes, since 1701 Prussian Kings . The culture, society and way of life of the Prussians differs from the other "German" nations (Kingdom of bavaria, kd. of saxony, kd. of württemberg, ...) in so many ways...the only thing in common was the German language, which only was spoken in Prussia, because Brandenburg was part of Prussia (or rather vice versa) and the Hohenzollern dynastie origins in southern Germany (again, nearby Stuttgart) and Prussia conquered several German states.
Citation from Mirabeau about Prussia: "Other states have an army, in Prussia, the army has a state.", compared to the almost "dolce vita-like" way of life of the Austrians.
Interesting fact: one of the most important monarchs of Prussia, king Friedrich II., "the great", spoke French, and not German.

Franz II. of Habsburg formed in 1804 the "Kaiserreich Österreich", "Austrian Empire" and resigned as Holy-Roman emperor in 1806. So Austria is de facto the replacement of the HRE.
In 1871, Prussia declared the Prussian king, Wilhelm I. of Hohenzollern to the German Emperor in Versailles, after defeating the French (the so-called "hereditary enemy" ).
So, within this war from 1870/1871, the first REAL "German nation" was founded. Also, the "German emperor" had NOTHING to do with the "Holy-roman emperor". There was NOTHING like a "first reich" or a "second reich". In fact, the HRE was in the tradition of the "4-Realms" according to Prophet Daniel in the Bible, considered as the continuing (ancient) Roman Empire, the "4th realm". The Prophet Daniel dreamt, that after the fall of the 4th realm, the Devil would rise and rule our earth.
The terms "first reich" and "second reich" were just pathetic efforts of the Nazi-régime to legitimate their rule in some way.

Therefor it is simply logical to have the HRE spawn in ~800ad, rename it in 1800ad to "Austrian(-hungary) Empire" and have the Prussian nation spawning in 1700ad, renaming 1870 to "German Empire".
There is absolutely no other historical way of represent the actions in central Europe.

(sorry for the "essay", but I couldn't help... )

 

[Leoreth]

@fabe:
Thanks for the detailed background, I wish I'd had the patience to elaborate that much

Is it just me or are you trying to teach Leoreth, a German modder, about German history and how to deal with it gamewise ? in both cases it's quite useless : he's the modder so he wins on how things work out in the end, and he's German so he's probably the person here who has the best chances of knowing German history.

Basically you're right, and thanks for your support, but I'd rather be right on grounds of actual argumentation and not the fact I'm German

 

[fabe]

@fabe:
Thanks for the detailed background, I wish I'd had the patience to elaborate that much

Zum Glück hatte ich grade nix bessres zu tun und studier Geschichte auf Lehramt

 

[Sandmonster1989]

I would also like to note on Leoreth's behalf that this idea was mentioned

Spoiler :

many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many

times as his reasoning for CHOOSING Vienne as the capital of the HRE, with an intent of (after the addition of the Prussians) calling the HRE the Austrio-Hungarian empire.

Fabe: thank you for the insight on history of the HRE and Prussia (though it doesn't nearly scratch the surface, I'm sure). I did learn something!!

 

[fabe]

I did learn something!!

I would recommend all of you to have a look on the central European history, as I'm suggesting everyone playing Civ is at least a little bit interested in history
Despite the fact that I'm German myself, I find the central European/German history very interesting, beginning with barbarian migrations, resisting the Imperium Romanum, forming the most powerful national construct during the middle ages -> the HRE, a great merchant power raising in the teeny-tiny Netherlands settling colonies all over the world, the dualism of two Great Powers (Austria and Prussia) and, of course, the perverse intellectual dazzlement of a few, leading everyone with lies and false promises to sorrow and grief and in the youngest history having one German state (FRG) adopt another German state (GDR).

 

[Ready_set_go]

I have only one (two) requests.

I've truthfully wondered why the player couldn't vassalize himself. I don't know if it's not an option in the Core Civilization, I think it is, but I think it would add a decent amount of gameplay.

And then, have you removed the Colony maintenance thing, where there is bonus maintenance in colonies? The reason that was originally intended was so the player would grant "independence" to his colonies, but the option is taken away in RFC, and DoC (Although I'm not sure, haven't tried, just assuming.)