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Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Apr 19, 2010.

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  1. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    May I remind you: On Christmas Day in 800, while Charlemagne knelt in prayer in Saint Peter's in Rome, Pope Leo III seized a golden crown from the altar and placed it on the bowed head of the king. Some sources claiming Charlemagne was unaware of the event's coming and regretted it happening. I doubt that.

    The throng in the church shouted, "To Charles the August, crowned by God, great and pacific emperor, long life and victory!" Despite the fact, a Roman Emperor still reigned in the East. But that's beside the point.

    The coronation was the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire. Though you are correct that Charlemagne did not officialy use the title, he is still, nonetheless, considered the first Holy Roman emperor. So yes officially, according to him, he wasn't; but later historians agree he was indeed the first Holy Roman Emperor, despite an official status. But that's all semantics now.

    I also admire his tenacity to learn to read and write, an uncommon drive for king's of his day. But still we both can't look past his "interesting method of spreading the religion." I think we both know what that means ;-).
    ---------------------------------------
    I agree on that, it is weird to have Charles V. Maybe it should be Otto, would definitely be a much better choice. However, Barbarossa would do just as well. I'm going to have go to check out your Civlopedia on that.

    I haven't really ever encountered the UHV-Greek situation before, so I'm interested in the details behind that?
    -------------------------------------
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Well, the point I was trying to make about Charlemagne and the HRE is that the RFC HRE is clearly intended to be German, while Charlemagne was "only" a Frankish ruler. The whole continuity between Charlemagne and later German Emperors was only propagated to a) get some of Charlemagne's prestige and b) to fit with the "translatio imperii" idea.

    And I don't think Austria/Prussia is the same thing as the CSA which lasted only for four years. Just trust me and see what it's like, you'll see it all pans out in the end :)

    What do you mean with that?
     
  3. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    As for the UHV-Greek, sorry confused two different posts on here. I mean ketten's UHV-Germany situation, I haven't encountered it. I haven't actually played as Greece yet, I thinK I wanna try the Persians next round. Currently playing as England, way too powerful, I fear collapse is imminent.
    -----------

    I totally understand where you're coming from on the Charlemagne context. Again, the Civ series will never fully be able to mimic real history. That would take a super computer to process that game. I mean imagine random revolts every other turn, war and peace coming and going. It'd be a mess to program.

    -------------

    Not sure what you mean by CSA and Austria/Prussia?
     
  4. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    Whoops, missed the earlier posts. I do see where hetten (sp?), is coming from and he's right. That does present a problem though, giving potential for the Turks to snag up a city or two.

    Right HRE wasn't really an empire in the sense of the word, nor was it truly Roman either. I'm spit balling here, and forgive a little historical fudging, we have to make the game playable; but what about HRE spawns as Otto or Philip, or whatever, then when Germany spawns (as Prussia first) the HRE southern cities become indepedents or perhaps have Austria spawn at sometime too and the leftovers be indepedents?
    -
    As for CSA, my original assumption was that you mean the Confederate States of America? It would be cool if they spawned during the civil war, but maybe just as indepedents? I dont' think it's worth creating a new LH for a 4 year war, unless you want the potential to re-write history and take control of the CSA against the Union and this time win?
    -

    It seems like there's a major lag on the notifications for this bulletin to my e-mail? odd. I wouldn't want to cut out the HRE as a playable Civ all together, I mean it did exist, whether it was not Roman, not really an Empire or what-have-you, it still was a border on a map. So we can't just cut it out or make it entirely indepedents, due to the non-diplo status of indies. You should be able to arrange trade and make contact with the HRE.

    -

    Just my thoughts, more of a dreamer on this than a practical modder. :mischief:
     
  5. dcode147

    dcode147 Warlord

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    kettenhunde does bring up a lot of interesting points.

    I think the historical HRE didn't really make all that many achievements worthy of UHVs. In addition they have very little incentive to act historical and conquer Northern Italy/Rome since Italians spawn so soon and all too much incentive to start working on their goals toward conquering France and Russia.

    With the future inclusion of the Prussians, I feel like Austria, sandwiched between Turkey, Russia and Italy, will be particularly cramped without many good city locations.


    I think a lot of the problems we see right now
    - HRE middle ages not interesting to play historically, too easy to use this time to start conquering UHV lands
    - too cramped, too many civs
    - Prussia/Germany not able to control placement of their core cities (aka, Austria player could screw Prussia over with stupid cities)
    may be solved by modifying the current HRE/Austria/Germany civ.


    New HRE/Germany one-civ idea

    Civ spawns around current HRE/Austria spawn time. It has very low stability and is weak at research, commerce and production in general. Despite this, they still need to defend against the Turks and accomplish...

    UHV 1: Control 2 religious shrines in AD1518 (usually this means they need to find a way to control Rome and still build a strong enough empire to be the first to found Protestantism)

    Scripted event: In some year ~1618 (during the turmoil of the 30 Years War and when Brandenburg-Prussia was rising in power),
    - your capital is moved to a random city you control, and your empire descends into civil war.
    - France and Russia are respawned (to ensure they are alive in case player controlled HRE destroyed them at some early point in the game)
    - Each independent city formerly part of your empire starts with 2-3 military units.
    - In your capital, you receive a large army (7-8 units)
    This means that in this time, Germany needs to quickly reconquer the rest of its empire. Within the next 300 years, it will have to race to build back up and conquer its neighbors (France, Russia, Scandinavia etc...).

    UHV 2: generic German conquer x, y, & z in year AD blah.
    UHV 3: another German UHV

    I feel like by incorporating the HRE and Germany under one civilization, players get to play through something closer to the glory of the full German historical experience.
     
  6. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob: Rock and Roll man! Looks like something like that might work, Austria would be a tough one to make because just like playing the Earth 34 civs mod, you're sandwhiched in Europe.

    :goodjob::goodjob: Love the idea about respawning Russia and France if they fall. That always irritated me that France would collapse and never return, pissed me off because I enjoy having them to harrass from time to time.

    Maybe another scripted event could involve France collapses during French Revolution, then Napoleon LH rises, cities in France flip to France again and he begins his conquests of Europe. Though if he's ill-equipped, that would be a short battle. :lol:

    You still think the CSA is do-able? Maybe at least indepedents at war with U.S.

    Lastly, if possible, could it be arranged that at some point in either the 19th or 20th century, Arabia and China (if they collapsed) re-spawn as modern LHs? Just a thought.

    But hey let's tackle this HRE/Germany/Prussia problem first. I like your idea, I volunteer as a Beta tester!
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    No, my point was that there are dozens of civs that were more important than the CSA.
     
  8. rogue131

    rogue131 Byzantine Historian

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    of course. That's not really a big deal. Handling the HRE/Germany and France/Russia situation is more important. Just wondering?
     
  9. kettenhunde

    kettenhunde Chieftain

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    i like your ideas. i would like to see the conquer Scandinavia dropped and replaced by something like conquering x ammount of another civ's colonies, have x ammount of vassals/or x ammount of kultur and just control russia, england, and france by 1945ish?
     
  10. kettenhunde

    kettenhunde Chieftain

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    i agree, what if (nearly)every civ had a scripted event in which half a independent revolt would take place and it had to reconquer lets say half of its old cities and your capyial could flip to another city, either by code or by some other perimeter...highest kultur/highest population/biggest army?

    this could fix germany/austria/pruBia, spain/cordoba, usa/csa, french revolution, etc.....and well because of the year in which this would take places a few turns could mean decades or only 4 years.

    hmm?
     
  11. The Turk

    The Turk Deity

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    Quick Questions:
    1. You've removed Southern Italy/Sicily from the Roman spawn right? If you haven't I strongly recommend doing so, to make for some interesting games where the Romans need to kick off either the Greeks or Phoenicians.
    2. Can you change Serfdom back to Slavery? I understand you want to represent the Middle Ages, but how about changing it back to slavery, for 3000AD start, but keeping it as Serfdom for 600AD start? Does that sound good?
    3. Can you have the Temple of Soloman spawn in Jerusalem at a certain date, because I'm sick of having Yerushalayim just flip to the Phoenicians, I would much rather have Yerushalayim have a good solid culture to match Sur's
     
  12. Bouw

    Bouw Chieftain

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    Hi!
    when i played vikings I was renamed democratic republic of scandinavia
    But i had state propertry and republic as my civics
    Also I had never even researched democracy.
    So what does that all mean??
     
  13. kettenhunde

    kettenhunde Chieftain

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    does anyone know where in the "code" the civs spawn dates are located?
     
  14. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

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    then the greeks should respaw at 1821 ( the date of the greek rebellion against the turks) with only units, no cities.

    for uhv:

    1: free all greek cities by 1829

    the unhistorical uhv
    2: take anatolia and con/polis
     
  15. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Democratic Republic is a title used by many quasi-communist regimes in the real world
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    1. Yes, it is already.
    2. Even if that would be easily possible, it would only be confusing. I'd be happy if there's a less age-specific term that covers both of them, but until then the name stays.
    3. The Temple of Solomon already spawns in turn 2, so I don't know how any other date would help Jerusalem culturally. It routinely being taken over by Sur is a problem though, maybe I'll ramp up its culture a bit.

    Consts.py (tBirth tuple) and CvRhyes.cpp in the DLL source code.
     
  17. fireclaw722

    fireclaw722 Imperial Guard

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    Is it possible to avoid stability penalty from transition to Democracy, I had Republic and Representation(Capitalism/Free Market/and Viceroyalty were other civics if thats important), and when I switched from Representation to Parliamentarism I still get the instability. This was with Britian as well, as if it would make a difference...

    Anyway, On the subject of Prussia/Austrian UHV's I got some that I would like to propose some:
    Austria/HRE
    (spawn at now Germany/HRE's time/spot)
    UP
    -Power of Hapsburg Rulers:
    Diplomatic bonus before(insert Industrial Tech here)
    UHV's
    -Control the Largest Empire in Europe in 1500's(a turn or two before Prussian Spawn)(had largest Empire completly in Europe)
    -Make Wien the largest city in 1300's(Ahistorical, although it might be historical, not sure)
    -Found Protestantism(didn't historically, but I fear it would be founded before Prussian spawn normally)
    Prussia/Germany
    (spawns in the 1500's at Berlin)
    UP
    -Current UP for Germany
    OR
    -Power of Army("Nations own an army while the Prussian Army owns a state" quote type thing)
    Militarial units cost less Mantinence after discovery of Nationalism
    UHV's
    -Build/Control Brandenburg Gate, Pentagon, Versailles by/in 1900's(Ahistorcal; built Brandenburg Gate, Pentagon is Militarial, and Versailles was built in Paris which was captured a couple of times by Germany; so not too ahistorical)
    -Control Germany(including Wien)(Austro-Prussian War), France(Franco-Prussian War), Denmark(maybe just simply Scandanavia)(Seven-Weeks War), and Poland(Prussia controlled much of Poland, before Napoleon's conquest of Europe) by late 1800's
    -Take by force or settling(this just sounds more interesting than control:crazyeye:)the Cameroons, German East Africa, and Laos/Rabaul(a city in East Asian Islands)(they had a colonial empire before WWI)

    Just a couple of cents, not worth much nowadays:lol:...
     
  18. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    So, Leoreth, have you considered the resource buffs for India?
     
  19. dcode147

    dcode147 Warlord

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    I eagerly await this as well :)


    This is an interesting idea. In a lot of games I play, the United States is trapped on the east coast since foreign culture (for instance, France controlling Chicago and New Orleans), would block its path west. Having the cities located on a few tiles of the American south (such as the tiles surrounding New Orleans), become independent or barbarian around the year AD1860 would increase the likelihood America takes New Orleans and has an open path to settle the west.


    Yeah, in general, I think a well-thought out UHV is one that has many strategies available for achieving it, but makes historical means by which the civ tried to achieve it the easiest path to pursue in-game.

    I would prefer it to be "Have within your or your vassal's culture the starting tile locations of 10 civs in the year 1945."
    Not sure if 10 is the right number for balance sake, but here's some DoC civs that had part of their lands occupied by Nazi Germany, and some other civs nearby. HRE/Germany, France, Netherlands, Russia, Greece, Italy, Rome, Scandinavia, ... Portugal, Spain, Turkey, Carthage, Egypt, England


    But I'd like to hear back from Leoreth first about the one civ HRE/Germany and the respawning France and Russia idea.
     
  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I'd rather say we stop this discussion until I actually have the time to start implementing something :)
     
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