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Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Apr 19, 2010.

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  1. Gruekiller

    Gruekiller Back From The Beyond

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    That doesn't sound like a bad idea, actually. There'd have to be a way to make sure that the Turks keep conquering and don't just hole up in one or two cities for the rest of the game, though.
     
  2. AOS9001

    AOS9001 Slightly over 9000.

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    Well, if you have to remove a city, it'll have to be Benghazi. Tripolis is too important to get rid of.


    A modder is never truly done. I think a series of barbarian waves would work fine to represent the Turks and destablize both Arabs and Byzantines to pave the way for the Ottoman conquest of everything in the middle east.
     
  3. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

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    Why wouldn't it be possible? There's tons of empty space in central Asia at the moment, whereas the middle-east is crammed with starting locations for civs. Like I said just add a couple of food resources in Central Asia and put part of Turkey's "core area" in Anatolia. A UHV condition which involves controlling Anatolia by a certain date could also help encourage Turkish expansion there. Another way to ensure they don't found empires in Russia is to make all tiles north of their central Asian spawn area (including Siberia) into "foreign area" for Turkey, as well as having barbarian horse archers spawn frequently in southern Siberia between about 1000-1400AD. Perhaps the Turks could spawn with military units near the southern part of the Caucasus mountains. Softening up the middle-east with pre-Turkish waves of barbarian units from central Asia would also help. If the Phonecians can still be made to found cities in north Africa such as Carthage, then surely it is possible to make central-Asian Turks found/conquer cities in Anatolia.
     
  4. Sikandar

    Sikandar Prince

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    If you wanted to spice things up you could replace the Ottoman Turks with the Seljuq Turks and have them spawn in northeastern Persia around 1040 AD. Or have both.
     
  5. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

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    Such a spawn date and location would be suitable imo. The Seljuk Turks were the direct historical predecessors of the Ottoman Turks, however in this mod they aren't "Ottomans" they are just "Turks", so you presumably wouldn't have to rename them or have both as separate civs.
     
  6. Visard

    Visard Warlord

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    I also like the idea of moving Turks spawn date and location.

    Arab UHV suggestion: Have library in all cities and three universities by 1200.
    Or maybe just x universities.

    And about the floodplains. Would it be that bad if the floodplains remained under a city? It only gives one food on cost of 0.4 unhealthiness. If you play Egypt the best starting cities aren't on floodplains anyway. And it would help Egypt AI. And if you think it helps Babylon too much, you could always remove the floodplains under Babylons starting location and replace it with normal desert or plains.
     
  7. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    I think I gamed the Ottomans (don't forget that the Ottomans are only a part of the Turks, hence why they spawn in Anatolia); they spawned without a settler; I refused the flip of Trebizond and Antioch, thus war. They never moved away from their plot. Eventually I signed peace and they got pushed beyond the Black Sea, in Russian territory. For the kicks, I made them DOW on Russia (using WB); they conquered a city but got killed afterwards.

    1) No settler; weird.
    2) Never moved during war!
    3) Never died while they had no city!

    So currently I'm struggling in stability, not sure why. My exansion is down in my socks (-40). Granted I just captured Cuzco but it was low even before that. I only settled in historical areas like southern India. I do have a big, big empire (29 cities) but my stability seemed okay before it jumped down to -35. Now I'm in a long GA (~16 turns: great people induced + triumphal arch: 41% of the world is muslim ;)).

    What can lower the expansion rating exactly?

    As a side note, I like what they did in RFCE, making stability way less of a blackbox.
     
  8. dcode147

    dcode147 Warlord

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    Moving the Turks spawn date and location will make it much harder for an AI-controlled Turkish civ to replicate the extent of the Ottoman empire. No other spawn system will give the Turks as much of an advantage against the Byzantines.

    Moving the Turkish spawn location east and spawn date earlier will present the AI similar challenges to moving the French and Spanish spawn dates earlier and north of the Rhine river for instance.
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah, that's possible as well, I'll have to wrap my mind around it. For now I'll only adapt the conquest goal into something more challenging.

    Yeah, I found the gold goal even quite easy in 1.7, but they have been nerfed severely in 1.71: more upkeep, less gpp etc.

    Depends on which cities you controlled. The regions have been quite oddly defined in 1.7, even I failed the 3rd goal in my first attempt although I thought I wouldn't ;) 1.72 will fix that by expanding their boundaries to be more logical.

    Neither is really the problem. 1.72 Arabia spawns with 5 camel archers in Cairo 50% of the time and still they don't go there. And it isn't the defense either - the AI is actually to smart to care for these semi-useful cities when there's Anatolia to conquer.

    Some great ideas there. For the third, maybe something less radical: make sure there are X cities in the world with only Islam in Y. So you can do this without having to compete with Europe's annoyingly fast growing population.

    1. Yeah, I'll change the whole rename system in the long run.
    2. This is a really odd one, no idea if I'm able to find out what's causing this.
    3. This should be fixed already. :confused:
    4. It's difficult to test so I'm currently procrastinating doing something about it, but I guess I should finally start, shouldn't I?

    Most of the problems with this were already mentioned:

    1. They're meant to be a challenge to all these civs, especially the Byzantine 3rd goal hinges on them to be at least a little challenging.
    2. Making Anatolia an UHV goal doesn't change the fact that it'll be difficult to get the AI to go there, much less conquer the other historical parts of the Ottoman Empire. And when going for a Turkish civ, I'd rather see the OE represented properly than the Seljuqs.
    3. Even if we could make that happen, they would remain in control of their original cities in Persia which the real Turks lost quite quickly. In fact I'm trying more to reduce the Turkish presence in this region rather than increase it.

    The Ottomans already spawn with no settlers. But some additional Seljuq barbarians are not a bad idea.

    That's bad, never thought about the player's possibility to refuse a flip. Have to think of something to avoid their destruction in this case, I guess.
     
  10. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    I never thought about the possibility of agreeing to the flip :D

    Is it out of the question to bring back the "no anarchy during GAs" from BTS? It's handy when you have quite a few civics to change and GAs are rare enough to not be gamed. In effect I nearly never change my civics but at the beginning because the prospect of losing stability is more frightening than what I could gain from the switch.

    (In this particular case I guess it would bring me on the brink of collapse.)
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I see no reason in refusing it when you can steamroll your enemy 10 turns later without annoying unit betrayals :)

    For no anarchy during GAs I'd first have to find out where Rhye turned that feature off ...
     
  12. J. pride

    J. pride King

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    Perhaps the Ai is smart, but do u plan on keeping it this way?? Or are there any alternatives so that Arabs settle North Africa
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    What I said before: giving Hesperides/Tripolis to the independents. They seemed to have no problems attacking them as long as the minor civ mechanisms are working.
     
  14. J. pride

    J. pride King

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    Oh i seemed to have missed that part. Anyways do u plan on spawning those cities as indie or are they somehow going to separate from the Byzies in a few turn??

    In both cases this allows u to create Naples and while u are focusing on North Africa is there a way to have an independent Tunis as well?? (since u dont see minor civs in the possible future)
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Well, forcing them to declare independence doesn't change much, so they'll be placed as independent. And yes that means Neapolis instead :) Tunis comes with the Moor/Berber civ then.
     
  16. KMRblue1027

    KMRblue1027 The Crown!

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    I'm almost positive it was done to not make a huge difference between BTS and Warlords/Vanilla. That's why there's anarchy in Golden ages and 2 GP required to start them.
     
  17. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

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    1. Having waves of barbarian units spawn in northern Persia/ the southern Caucasus from about 1000AD onwards which attack targets in Anatolia and the Levant could help make it more challenging for the Byzantines to hold onto enough cities in the Mid-East to fulfill their 3rd UHV goal.
    2. Such being the case, the Ottomans should be a conditional spawn like Italy e.g. they only spawn if there is at least one city in Anatolia which is controlled by Barbarians or Independents in 1280AD. This is still historically accurate - the Ottoman Empire started out as one of a number of emirates in Anatolia which formed after the collapse of the Seljuk Sultunate of Rum. However the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum only came into being because the Byzantines lost control of Anatolia to Seljuk Turk invaders in the 1060's -1070's AD. These Seljuk invaders could be represented be the aformentioned barbarian spawns in the southern Caucasus and northern Persia.
    3. I can see how this might be problematic. Like I said before you could just have waves of barbarians occur in the Khazakstan area after the Turks spawn, so they eventually lose their cities in central Asia. But the conditional spawn in Anatolia would probably make more sense, especially if the Turkish spawn area was simply reduced to Anatolia proper and north-western Persia.
     
  18. J. pride

    J. pride King

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    Can we not make Turks into a conditional spawn. Arent the invaders good enough?
     
  19. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

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    Yeah, I find that when I play as the Byzantines I struggle much more with stability after the Turks spawn, even when I do agree to the flip. In particular, my expansion stability plummets around the 1400-1600's AD, even though I control all of Byzantines core areas, no cities in foreign core areas, and only one city (Tripolis) in foreign area.

    I agree that stability is too much of a black box at the moment, and would also like to know what affects the expansion rating in this case (could it even be a bug?). The RFCE system sounds like it would be very useful.
     
  20. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

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    If the Turks were a military-only spawn preceded by wave of Seljuk barbarians invading Anatolia, and if they didn't instantly flip all those cities in the Levant and on the Black Sea (rather unhistorical and incredibly annoying imo), then perhaps you wouldn't necessarily need to make their spawn conditional. I think it would help though if the Turk's spawn area was reduced while their number of military units at spawn was increased.
     
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