Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

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Should Sydney's Opera House be considered national or world wonder is what I'm asking. I was considering to add it to my DoC, but am unsure whether it would really qualify as a world wonder.

Oh ok, well I would consider it a World Wonder, and quite obviously too, as it is unique in the world, there is only ONE Sydney Opera House (in Sydney ;) ). I don't know if you've ever been, but its really quite magnificent, and quite different from the photos (as in its much larger, and grand)
 
I'm sure, but what would be its effects? No unhappiness in the city, +100%:culture:, such things? Those are very, very similiar with the national wonder.

What's making me wonder is that it has no alternative names either. It's just '[City name] Opera House'. Basically any constructed Opera House in RFC might be another Sydney. What would it be called? And to be honest, its architecture (although unpeered) is the one thing that separates it from the rest, I don't know if that alone warrants inclusion.

(To be honest, I wouldn't bother myself with such nuances in regular Civ IV. But RFC sets the bar a step higher, I can't include just whatever for the sake of flavor. :dunno:)

Then again, no unhappiness in two cities would be quite a handsome asset. But wouldn't a building constructed in the late 1970's be too late to represent that? Feel free to argue.
 
My argumentations against it would go along the lines that it comes too late and is unlikely to be built in its correct location, I think.
 
I would say it should be World Wonder. Sth like +50% culture in all cities? It would come late but it's nice addition for those seeking cultural victory. If it's not build- happens (I love games with a lot of possibilities. I would even add wonders that was never built just to give broader list of buildings to choose from, like Babel Tower or Volkshalle). Name? Maybe Grand Opera House?

And to be honest, its architecture (although unpeered) is the one thing that separates it from the rest, I don't know if that alone warrants inclusion.

Hmmm... And how is Eiffel's Tower "separated from the rest of towers, beside it's architecture"? :)
 
The Parisians hate it. Was it Woody Allen who always ate there to avoid seeing its ugliness? :D

Release of a new version

Anyway, I've just decided that it'd be best to release the current state of the modmod as version 1.6 despite the problems with Italy, which will be pushed back on schedule until 1.7. There was enough other features I've added along the way and didn't want to withhold from you any longer. Take a look at them for yourself:

Spoiler Version 1.6 features :

  • LEADERHEADS
  • added Maria II as a late Portuguese leaderhead
  • added a civic-specific leader switch mechanic:
    • Germany and Spain switch to Hitler and Franco when fascist, respectively
    • China and Russia switch to Mao and Stalin when communist, respectively
    • Cixi and Nicholas II added as non-communist leaders
  • replaced the previous Abu Bakr leaderhead with the Omani leader from Sword of Islam (leaderhead by Ekmek, background by Amra)

    NEW CIVILIZATION (ALPHA)
  • added the Italian civilization
    • leaderhead: Victor Emmanuel
    • unique unit: Bersagliere (Infantry with 2 movement)
    • unique building: Art Studio (Forge with +1 happiness from marble, dye and one artist slot)
  • added an incomplete scripted spawn for Italy in 1861 (actually a respawn of Rome), the player is able to switch to them (for testing purposes)
    • KNOWN PROBLEM: City graphics turn to ruins after the switch, city panels disappear
    • I have decided to release this version dispite this flaw to make all other new features available
    • The civ also still carries many artifacts of Rome, like city names, dynamic names, stability maps
    • There is no UP and UHV

    WONDERS
  • Wonders of the classical Mediterranean no longer require marble, but the Pantheon civic to be built
  • Theodosian Walls are now pre-built in Constantinople in the 600 AD scenario
  • Theodosian Walls are now displayed as walls on the map (graphics adapted from Sword of Islam)
  • The Pantheon is now pre-built in Rome in the 600 AD scenario
  • San Marco Cathedral now requires a harbor and therefore sea access
  • The Parthenon now expires after you discover Theology (its effect was intended for Rome and Greece, seeing a Turkish democracy in the 600 AD scenario feels wrong)
  • Effect of the Temple of Solomon changed: it now doubles the shrine revenue limit for its owner and expires with Liberalism
  • The Spiral Minaret now has its old effect again (+2 gold per religious building)
  • increased Mezquita's effect to +2 beakers per specialist

    UNITS
  • replaced Maceman with Longswordsman (heavy infantry graphics from Charlemagne scenario)
  • new unit: Levy (strength 6, +25% against mounted units, produced with food, requires Feudalism and Vassalage)
  • Knights now require Feudalism and the Vassalage civic
  • Camel Archers and Keshiks now require Feudalism, but not the Vassalage civic
  • Cataphracts still require Machinery and no civic
  • Longbowman now require Guilds

    GAME MECHANICS
  • civilizations are more likely to collapse after a certain historical date (e.g. Rome after 476 AD)
  • adapted the civic requirement mechanic for buildings and units from Sword of Islam
  • all civilizations have their core areas revealed at spawn
  • fixed various dynamic city names

    INTERFACE
  • the mouseover info box now displays tile stability in five categories:
    • Core Area (dark green): no penalty, enemy cities here give a stability hit
    • Historical Area (light green): no penalty
    • Contested Area (yellow): no direct penalty, but indirect because this tile is part of the core of another civ
    • Foreign Area (orange): penalty if number of controlled tiles exceeds a certain tolerance
    • Foreign Core Area (red): like foreign area, but also indirect penalties because this tile is part of the core of another civ
  • removed embassies and corporation headquarters from the wonders civilopedia
  • enabled display of "produced using food" in the civilopedia
  • fixed various wrong entries for civics in the civicoption menu and civilopedia:
    • "no state religion"
    • "post-communist crisis"
    • "risk of great depression"
    • "transition to democracy"
  • reenabled the "great person born" messages known from vanilla BtS

    CIVICS
  • modified the AI to be more likely to adopt historical civics
    (basically the "favourite civic" feature per civ and per era)
    this was especially used to encourage Greece, Rome, Babylonia, Phoenicia and Egypt to adopt Pantheon, and to discourage China and India to do so
  • Aristocracy now gives additional free units and +2 unit experience
  • Vassalage now gives +50% worker speed and allows to train Levies and Knights
  • Representation doesn't influence city maintenance anymore
  • Parliamentarism now creates unhappiness for all civs that don't adopt it (ca. 2/3 as Emancipation in vanilla) instead of a free specialist

    CIVILIZATIONS
  • Egypt's UP now includes enabled Pantheon civic at start
  • added a new coat of arms for Korea (the Ihwamun)
  • Phoenicia now has its own UP: The Power of Seafaring - +50% trade route yield
  • Removed China's second UHV condition (no cities lost to Barbarians or Mongols until 1400 AD)
  • Added a new second UHV condition for China: have four golden ages until 1850 AD

    BALANCE AND BUGFIXING
  • Increased "switch civic" and "switch religion" espionage mission costs
  • modified some civic stability modifiers
  • fixed all civic-dependant events to be triggered by an appropriate of the new civics
  • deleted the "you have entered the medieval era" screen after Netherlands spawn
  • fixed Justinian's starting civics in the 600 AD scenario
  • France doesn't get Musketeers at the conqueror event anymore

DOWNLOAD HERE
 
The new version looks great :)

Finally implemented the idea of increasing the length of the middle ages by giving us knights earlier. Will be interesting to see how it effects game-play.

Also like the idea of having a "Rome-respawn" as Italy. Maybe something similar could be done with the Babylonians?

I do not really like the idea of "civilizations are more likely to collapse after a certain historical date (e.g. Rome after 476 AD)". It seems a bit to deterministic in my mind, and should only be included as a "last solution". I would have preferred if you could find other ways to make them collapse.

@luko: As far as I remember, the musketeer is not the French unique unit anymore. They have the new cannon. It does not necessarily exclude them from being part of the conquerors event though, but I think it makes sense.
 
Hmmm... And how is Eiffel's Tower "separated from the rest of towers, beside it's architecture"? :)

That is a good point. Then again, there's not a national wonder it could easily portray as.

So Aristocracy is now basically Vassalage? I like the idea but I wonder AI's willingness to switch away from it in later eras.
 
Then again, there's not a national wonder it could portray as.

National Monument? XD

I do not really like the idea of "civilizations are more likely to collapse after a certain historical date (e.g. Rome after 476 AD)". It seems a bit to deterministic in my mind, and should only be included as a "last solution". I would have preferred if you could find other ways to make them collapse.

Seconded.
 
New update looks awesome Leoreth!

(hope you'd get a look at some of my previous comments btw) :)

I like the new China UHV idea.

I do not really like the idea of "civilizations are more likely to collapse after a certain historical date (e.g. Rome after 476 AD)". It seems a bit to deterministic in my mind, and should only be included as a "last solution". I would have preferred if you could find other ways to make them collapse.

Yeah I agree. Though I would be more for idea of civs being more prone to collapse because of factors more within one's control such as greater frequency or intensity of barbarian invasions etc..., rather collapse more likely as a result uncontrollable modifiers. Civs more likely to collapse due to outliving their historical era might also make the UHV the only realistic option available for a civ to attain victory.

I was wondering, does Italy spawn if Rome still magically survives in the 1800's?
 
I was wondering, is it easy to add regular 'building production modifier' line in XML? Meant for civic use.
 
The Parisians hate it. Was it Woody Allen who always ate there to avoid seeing its ugliness? :D

I disagree. The Parisian population used to hate it (they were horrified when they learned it was permanent), but it's grown to be the symbol of the city. I can see the top of it from were I live and no one I know would think it's ugly. Although I agree that in all objectivity it's not beautiful. Today (especially since it's rather on the side of the city), no one cares.

And the changes are all good, except maybe for the stability drop after a certain date, but if it's not too much of a drop it's ok.
 
Your name for the Sydney Opera House could be just that. Sydney Opera House. Give it some effect like additional culture. Or you could make it modify existing theatres built in cities to give extra happyness and culture. Or even give Theatres to every city throughout the empire...
And I agree that it would be built too late.

Glad there's a new version out. Hopefully my computer will stop being stupid (has been for 2 days now) and let me download it.
 
So you decided that Italian UU is fast-running infantry? XD Why not less power but high withdrawal rate? :)
I knew there would be a comment like that :D
Bersaglieri were specifically trained by the Kingdom of Savoy to move fast to compensate for their lack of decent cavalry.

Yeah, it's "by", should've worded it better. The 2/3 GA does count by the way, so you have to achieve 3 GAs on your own.

Finally implemented the idea of increasing the length of the middle ages by giving us knights earlier. Will be interesting to see how it effects game-play.
Exactly that was the plan. It's also more realistic to have knights early and longbows late. And Vassalage and Aristocracy are now more interesting, I hope.

Also like the idea of having a "Rome-respawn" as Italy. Maybe something similar could be done with the Babylonians?
Italy is only very half-baked at the moment (basically it's just a Rome respawn that allows you to reign over ruins ;)), so I'll first dedicate my time to making everything work (including UP and UHV). After that, adding anything more would be a breeze.

I do not really like the idea of "civilizations are more likely to collapse after a certain historical date (e.g. Rome after 476 AD)". It seems a bit to deterministic in my mind, and should only be included as a "last solution". I would have preferred if you could find other ways to make them collapse.
I understand. Let me elaborate a little more: the penalty is rather low, and even halved when the civ is a neighbour of the human player (to avoid that the game gets too easy). The human itself is completely spared from the feature, I don't want to throw rocks in your way.

It's just that I've observed that many civs survive far longer than they should in DoC, especially India or Egypt. The small penalty now makes that rare again (as it should be), but still not impossible. Civs like Arabia now have a 50% chance to make it through. Play some games, from my experience there'll be no empty worlds, quite to the contrary.

So Aristocracy is now basically Vassalage? I like the idea but I wonder AI's willingness to switch away from it in later eras.
Exactly. I was torn apart if I shouldn't switch the effects of both around, but wanted to wait how everything plays out for you. There should be enough incentive to switch away from it, Capitalism is still very good and Totalitarianism should also be better in a total war situation. I'm only concerned about Socialism, which might need a buff. Maybe Parliamentarism's free specialist?

(hope you'd get a look at some of my previous comments btw) :)
What are you referring to specifically? :)

I like the new China UHV idea.
I too, but it wasn't mine, but suggested somewhere in this thread. I don't know by whom anymore :(

I was wondering, does Italy spawn if Rome still magically survives in the 1800's
It's a respawn :) So, no, it doesn't. The only thing I haven't taken care of is to stop Rome from respawning randomly in the 1800s, that would look bad I guess.

I was wondering, is it easy to add regular 'building production modifier' line in XML? Meant for civic use.
You mean like Organized Religion's effect, only without state religion? Well, like most of my more sophisticated features, I've learned modifying the XML by copying embryodeads code - it's not particularly difficult, but tedious. To even add the XML tag and have it affect anything one would have to edit the XMLSchema and the CvCivicInfos class. So it's not possible without DLL modification.

I disagree. The Parisian population used to hate it (they were horrified when they learned it was permanent), but it's grown to be the symbol of the city. I can see the top of it from were I live and no one I know would think it's ugly. Although I agree that in all objectivity it's not beautiful. Today (especially since it's rather on the side of the city), no one cares.
The people I met in Paris didn't like it. And my favorite landmark there is still the Sacré-Coeur on Montmartre, but that's more for personal reasons :love:
 
All right Leoreth after your amazing work I think it's time to move on from Generic RFC. I just want to switch Germany back to Berlin could you explain how you changed it so I can switch it back.
 
This post :)

Spoiler :

Also regarding Romans, I don't understand why they have to only represent Western Roman empire instead of the entire Roman empire. I think Roman stability maps, settler maps, continent/war maps and production bonuses should be adjusted (and maybe even add more scripted events for help AI Romans) so that they are in a better condition to replicate the real Roman empire. In most games I don't see Romans obtaining any cities in Egypt, Asia Minor, or the Levant. And their UHV should be adjusted so that their game doesn't involve them to try and unrealistically defend the Western Roman empire for 500 years longer than it actually existed, but instead to have a goal that makes them more focused on the east from 500-1500AD that way they would come to represent the Byzantines more. Byzantine language may have been Greek, but they are still politically a continuation of the very Roman Empire itself.

I agree for the 600AD start the Byzantines should be its own civ. But for the 3000BC start could the Romans be adjusted so that they would represent the actual Roman empire (including its eastern conquests which by 100AD is already becoming the backbone of the empire's economy) and then through scripted events and other changes evolve to represent the Byzantines (aka, switch palace to Constantinople, spawn some units in east so Roman AI wouldn't be screwed if barbarians take over west which they can be made to most certainly do take over the west)?

PS: Has anything been done to strengthen Mumbai? Traditionally its considered India's strongest city and Delhi is considered India's "second city", yet I think Delhi's location is far, far superior to Mumbai's. I guess cities that I like but are of less concern to gameplay/might not have an easy solution to remedy are Alexandria, Damascus, Venice, New York and Los Angeles.

I can't remember who mentioned Baghdad not being a sufficiently prominent city, but I agree that Baghdad should be already founded in the 600AD start. If AI Arab controls Baghdad by 762 AD, a scripted event could switch their palace from Mecca to Baghdad (or to their largest city so it could be a tossup between Baghdad and Cairo). This capital switch would make the Arabs more aggressive in conflict with Turks and Byzantines and also make them more vulnerable to collapse in the case their more offensive capital is conquered. This makes sense historically too because Mecca was never really that prominent of a major city. Mecca is also too resource rich to be geographically accurate. A scripted capital change idea could also worked well for AI players controlling China so that its capital in 3000BC doesn't necessarily have to be Beijing. I feel like more scripted events in general could be made especially to help AIs make what would otherwise be intuitive decisions for human players, eg a scripted fort could be made if an AI player control the region around the Suez canal.

Having Baghdad as the Arab capital would also make for an interesting idea for a possible change to the Mongol's UHV :P. Conquer the capital city of 6 separate civilizations, easiest ones would prolly end up being Beijing, Moscow, Baghdad, Delhi, Tokyo, Wien. This UHV would get the Mongols in conflict with many of the civs they were historically in conflict in, plus I think it might be a fun UHV.

PPS: RFC DoC has officially become my most played mod this week :D


Also some other things (most of which you prolly already heard of):

-More events, especially a Crusades event
-More random events, (i still like the bandits idea that spawn as barbs in your territory when stability is bad)
-An opportunity to control stability in the short term other than golden ages. ie: if stability is bad, one city declares its independence, representing a rebellion. If you can reconquer that city within x number of turns, you get a good stability boost.
-Have all cities that declare their independence get their own units, and your units would just move outside of their newly created borders.
-More variety in North American barbarian spawns. Is there some way of reworking graphics for Amerindian civ units (since Aztecs and Inca don't get iron, yet they have some pretty cool graphics for swordsman, spearman, but not longbowman and pikemen etc)
-Buff Arab start, but nerf their later game modifiers
-Buff Turk start (so at least they'd be able to in half the games overtake Arabs as the predominate Islamic power).
-More independent cities representing Islamic southern Spain and Northwestern Africa, also one representing Scotland. Would be nicer if cities were scripted to be razed when conquered by human players to avoid extra city advantage and lack of city placement options.

Great job with the mod. And as usual, ignore suggestions as you see fit :D
 
All right Leoreth after your amazing work I think it's time to move on from Generic RFC. I just want to switch Germany back to Berlin could you explain how you changed it so I can switch it back.
That's nice to hear. Changing the German spawn back to Berlin is very easy:

Open Assets\Python\Consts.py and search for tCapitals. You'll find a list of all capitals sorted by their civ's spawn. Berlins entry is still there, only commented out:
Code:
#(62, 52), #tBerlin
(63, 49), #tVienna
You only have to remove the "#" at the beginning of the Berlin line, and add one in Viennas line:
Code:
(62, 52), #tBerlin
[COLOR="Red"]#[/COLOR](63, 49), #tVienna

This post :)
Also regarding Romans, I don't understand why they have to only represent Western Roman empire instead of the entire Roman empire. I think Roman stability maps, settler maps, continent/war maps and production bonuses should be adjusted (and maybe even add more scripted events for help AI Romans) so that they are in a better condition to replicate the real Roman empire. In most games I don't see Romans obtaining any cities in Egypt, Asia Minor, or the Levant. And their UHV should be adjusted so that their game doesn't involve them to try and unrealistically defend the Western Roman empire for 500 years longer than it actually existed, but instead to have a goal that makes them more focused on the east from 500-1500AD that way they would come to represent the Byzantines more. Byzantine language may have been Greek, but they are still politically a continuation of the very Roman Empire itself.

I agree for the 600AD start the Byzantines should be its own civ. But for the 3000BC start could the Romans be adjusted so that they would represent the actual Roman empire (including its eastern conquests which by 100AD is already becoming the backbone of the empire's economy) and then through scripted events and other changes evolve to represent the Byzantines (aka, switch palace to Constantinople, spawn some units in east so Roman AI wouldn't be screwed if barbarians take over west which they can be made to most certainly do take over the west)?

PS: Has anything been done to strengthen Mumbai? Traditionally its considered India's strongest city and Delhi is considered India's "second city", yet I think Delhi's location is far, far superior to Mumbai's. I guess cities that I like but are of less concern to gameplay/might not have an easy solution to remedy are Alexandria, Damascus, Venice, New York and Los Angeles.

I can't remember who mentioned Baghdad not being a sufficiently prominent city, but I agree that Baghdad should be already founded in the 600AD start. If AI Arab controls Baghdad by 762 AD, a scripted event could switch their palace from Mecca to Baghdad (or to their largest city so it could be a tossup between Baghdad and Cairo). This capital switch would make the Arabs more aggressive in conflict with Turks and Byzantines and also make them more vulnerable to collapse in the case their more offensive capital is conquered. This makes sense historically too because Mecca was never really that prominent of a major city. Mecca is also too resource rich to be geographically accurate. A scripted capital change idea could also worked well for AI players controlling China so that its capital in 3000BC doesn't necessarily have to be Beijing. I feel like more scripted events in general could be made especially to help AIs make what would otherwise be intuitive decisions for human players, eg a scripted fort could be made if an AI player control the region around the Suez canal.

Having Baghdad as the Arab capital would also make for an interesting idea for a possible change to the Mongol's UHV :P. Conquer the capital city of 6 separate civilizations, easiest ones would prolly end up being Beijing, Moscow, Baghdad, Delhi, Tokyo, Wien. This UHV would get the Mongols in conflict with many of the civs they were historically in conflict in, plus I think it might be a fun UHV.

PPS: RFC DoC has officially become my most played mod this week

Also some other things (most of which you prolly already heard of):

-More events, especially a Crusades event
-More random events, (i still like the bandits idea that spawn as barbs in your territory when stability is bad)
-An opportunity to control stability in the short term other than golden ages. ie: if stability is bad, one city declares its independence, representing a rebellion. If you can reconquer that city within x number of turns, you get a good stability boost.
-Have all cities that declare their independence get their own units, and your units would just move outside of their newly created borders.
-More variety in North American barbarian spawns. Is there some way of reworking graphics for Amerindian civ units (since Aztecs and Inca don't get iron, yet they have some pretty cool graphics for swordsman, spearman, but not longbowman and pikemen etc)
-Buff Arab start, but nerf their later game modifiers
-Buff Turk start (so at least they'd be able to in half the games overtake Arabs as the predominate Islamic power).
-More independent cities representing Islamic southern Spain and Northwestern Africa, also one representing Scotland. Would be nicer if cities were scripted to be razed when conquered by human players to avoid extra city advantage and lack of city placement options.

Great job with the mod. And as usual, ignore suggestions as you see fit :D
Oh, I remember this post :D It was so long I decided to answer it later - you see how that went. Anyway:

I agree with you that the third Roman UHV is not the best. But I don't think I can have Rome represent the complete Roman Empire (read: western and eastern half) in any reasonable fashion, that is without helping out via spawns etc. Rhye tried it in the early version, it wasn't possible for the player to recreate it in any remotely historical timeline.

So I think it's better to have Byzantines as a Greece respawn later on (they could spawn as early as 330 AD in the 3000 BC scenario).

I'm not happy with Mumbai either. What would you suggest to improve the area (a WB screenshot would be extremely helpful). By the way, I'm currently thinking about giving cities in certain location a small hardcoded buff like an average amount of additional commerce. I got that idea when I thought about how to improve the Caribbean islands, and that could be applied to the silk route cities too.

I'm already thinking about how to best fit in Baghdad. The greatest problem is that it can't spawn in 3000 BC because Babylon is in the way.

I've heard Baldyr works on a Crusades module, so I'll wait what he comes up with and see if I'll include it :)

If you've got ideas for random events (I guess you mean BtS style), state them. But they should be already thought out a bit - what causes them (civics? buildings?), which options are offered, what is their effect.

Arabia and Turkey might need buffs, but I have no idea at the moment how to make that happen without screwing overall balance and difficulty.

Scotland and Moorish Spain still seem too difficult to me ... although I think I've found a solution for your desired auto-raze ...
 
That's nice to hear. Changing the German spawn back to Berlin is very easy:

Open Assets\Python\Consts.py and search for tCapitals. You'll find a list of all capitals sorted by their civ's spawn. Berlins entry is still there, only commented out:
Code:
#(62, 52), #tBerlin
(63, 49), #tVienna
You only have to remove the "#" at the beginning of the Berlin line, and add one in Viennas line:
Code:
(62, 52), #tBerlin
[COLOR="Red"]#[/COLOR](63, 49), #tVienna

Alsome thank you :)
 
ok, now this is just weird... I am playing through the 3000 bc scenario as egypt (again) going for the UHV. I found my capital right on top of the wheat, build the sphynx, and after several tries - I finally get the freakin great artist - woohoo! 2 UHVS done, then I do all the other stuff and get the 3 wonders built. Yay - now all I have to do is sit around until turn 152 (can't be too hard right?) and then, at turn 144 I -press enter to end turn- and the screen goes black, takes me to desktop and gives me an error message. A generic error, I figured - not so - I reload from an autosave from turn 144, loads properly, and when I end the turn, the exact same thing happens - (freakin save must be corrupted or something I thought) - I load an earlier save, trying to do everything I can as differently as possible (move units, build different stuff, etc...) no dice, exactly when I end my turn 144 the same thing happens.

I don't know if it is just with egypt or the 3000 bc scenario in general - maybe someone else has had issues with your newest version of the mod? At any rate, I suspect that the error relates to the newest version somehow, as I had never had something like this - reocurring at exactly that turn ever before.

I don't know if any part of the error message may be useful to you, I will soon post what I can, could be helpful, if there is something specific you might need let me know - I fear it may not be an error exclusive to my computer/specific situation, but who knows? maybe it is just me.

Im playin in normal speed, btw.

Edit: Screens should be up. I started a new game with egypt, founded the capital on the same spot and just basically sat around without doing nothing till turn 144 - the weird error didn't happen, neither when I did the same with the maya (the maya actually start after turn 144). Might be useful if I upload the save of the game where I got the error, I have attached it (just end turn till you reach turn 145 - if you manage to reach that turn, that is).
 

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