Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Cethegus]

I understand. Let me elaborate a little more: the penalty is rather low, and even halved when the civ is a neighbour of the human player (to avoid that the game gets too easy). The human itself is completely spared from the feature, I don't want to throw rocks in your way.

It's just that I've observed that many civs survive far longer than they should in DoC, especially India or Egypt. The small penalty now makes that rare again (as it should be), but still not impossible. Civs like Arabia now have a 50% chance to make it through. Play some games, from my experience there'll be no empty worlds, quite to the contrary.

Well then, that changes everything! I'm all out for it.

Exactly. I was torn apart if I shouldn't switch the effects of both around, but wanted to wait how everything plays out for you. There should be enough incentive to switch away from it, Capitalism is still very good and Totalitarianism should also be better in a total war situation. I'm only concerned about Socialism, which might need a buff. Maybe Parliamentarism's free specialist?

I switched around the effects of Absolutism, Socialism and Parliamentarism in my game some weeks ago. In the end, free specialist Socialism wound up representing it the best, so go ahead. Are you going to switch around the unlimited specialist too?

You mean like Organized Religion's effect, only without state religion? Well, like most of my more sophisticated features, I've learned modifying the XML by copying embryodeads code - it's not particularly difficult, but tedious. To even add the XML tag and have it affect anything one would have to edit the XMLSchema and the CvCivicInfos class. So it's not possible without DLL modification.

Right. Guess I'll take up DLL'ing once I get some more free time. Thanks.

 

[LuKo]

It's just that I've observed that many civs survive far longer than they should in DoC, especially India or Egypt.

In my opinion Egypt is not a civ I would like to see dead all the time. If it hadn't great land that neighbours (Greece, Rome, Arabia, Turkey) "needs" Egypt could survive. And as AI is no eager of conquering Egypt, why make it independent?

Rhye tried it in the early version, it wasn't possible for the player to recreate it in any remotely historical timeline.

It was possible. Just it was by far hardest UHV

 

[dcode147]

I agree with you that the third Roman UHV is not the best. But I don't think I can have Rome represent the complete Roman Empire (read: western and eastern half) in any reasonable fashion, that is without helping out via spawns etc. Rhye tried it in the early version, it wasn't possible for the player to recreate it in any remotely historical timeline.

Maybe simplifying the requirements work? Maybe like 2 cities in Asia, 2 cities in Eastern Europe, 2 cities in Western Europe, 2 cities in Africa (where again, Constantinople counts as a city in both Asia and Eastern Europe)? Or maybe that UHV could disregard Western Europe and just focus on Eastern territories cuz if you take into consideration Byzantine history, the Romans definitely survived long enough to accomplish such a UHV. I think playing as one cohesive Roman civilization from Rome's founding to the fall of Constantinople with challenging UHV's objectives that span multiple millennia can be really, really interesting (kinda like trying to win UHV with China). The possibility of having another UHV that asks you to protect your palace in Rome for 1000 years and then in Constantinople for 1000 years also seems really epic. I think this can be fun for human players. Unit spawns might be sufficient to keep an AI Roman player competitive as well. I promise I'll keep requests for a single Roman-Byzantine uber civ to a minimum from now on. I just hope you'll always keep in on the table for future considerations

I'm not happy with Mumbai either. What would you suggest to improve the area (a WB screenshot would be extremely helpful). By the way, I'm currently thinking about giving cities in certain location a small hardcoded buff like an average amount of additional commerce. I got that idea when I thought about how to improve the Caribbean islands, and that could be applied to the silk route cities too.

The hardcoded buff sounds like a good idea but would make the game a bit more tedious to play if players have to take into consideration which locations would provide the buffs. Resources and random events (like exotic bird feathers) do a good job in the sense your cursor lets you know think and strategize where you think the best city would be. Map changes can easily make Mumbai (give more resources and maybe some more grasslands) and Silk Road cities (maybe give a +1 commerce to all "silk road" containing tiles and give them a bit more resources) better locations. Not sure how much can be done for New York or Caribbeans. Maybe for those places, increasing the food/commerce/production bonus of tiles and resources surrounding those areas is the only way to go without giving cities the direct buff.

I'm already thinking about how to best fit in Baghdad. The greatest problem is that it can't spawn in 3000 BC because Babylon is in the way.

Babili is only 50 miles south of Baghdad. That's less than the width of a tile. Maybe it could just be renamed Baghdad?

Have you looked into the palace moving idea I mentioned to help out Arabs (from Mecca to largest population city at certain year) and Carthaginians (from Sur to Carthage), and possibly be something that could work for Chinese (from Luoyang to Beijing) and Romans (from Rome to Constantinople)? I think a little randomization in capital location (such as possibility of Arabs centered around either Baghdad or Cairo) might give the mod some more replayability.

Scotland and Moorish Spain still seem too difficult to me ... although I think I've found a solution for your desired auto-raze ...

SWEEET!!!! Definitely would make hostile independent city locations much more versatile.



Sorry, one more thing. What do you think about having the idea for a "great rival" kind of civ? There could be two AI civs randomly selected in each game that has a secret and somewhat substantial production, commerce, research and stability boost. AI Mongols with the secret boost ideally would actually be able to create the Mongol empire to 3/4th its historical extent. An AI Carthage with the secret boost might be able to actually for once win the Punic Wars and take over the Italian Peninsula. If an AI Aztecs randomly received the secret boost and beeline the right techs, they might even be the ones to first make contact between the Old and New World rather than vice-versa. I don't know how many of us are tired of seeing England, Germany and Arabia as the top 3 AI civs by the 1800's time after time after time. Maybe some randomization would add a bit more novelty.

 

[Leoreth]

I switched around the effects of Absolutism, Socialism and Parliamentarism in my game some weeks ago. In the end, free specialist Socialism wound up representing it the best, so go ahead. Are you going to switch around the unlimited specialist too?

I thought the unlimited specialists fit Socialism's background rather well ...

In my opinion Egypt is not a civ I would like to see dead all the time. If it hadn't great land that neighbours (Greece, Rome, Arabia, Turkey) "needs" Egypt could survive. And as AI is no eager of conquering Egypt, why make it independent?

Do you really want to meet and greet Cleopatra in 1500?

It was possible. Just it was by far hardest UHV

But even then it was not historical, the time limit had to be moved back IIRC.

Maybe simplifying the requirements work? Maybe like 2 cities in Asia, 2 cities in Eastern Europe, 2 cities in Western Europe, 2 cities in Africa (where again, Constantinople counts as a city in both Asia and Eastern Europe)? Or maybe that UHV could disregard Western Europe and just focus on Eastern territories cuz if you take into consideration Byzantine history, the Romans definitely survived long enough to accomplish such a UHV. I think playing as one cohesive Roman civilization from Rome's founding to the fall of Constantinople with challenging UHV's objectives that span multiple millennia can be really, really interesting (kinda like trying to win UHV with China). The possibility of having another UHV that asks you to protect your palace in Rome for 1000 years and then in Constantinople for 1000 years also seems really epic. I think this can be fun for human players. Unit spawns might be sufficient to keep an AI Roman player competitive as well. I promise I'll keep requests for a single Roman-Byzantine uber civ to a minimum from now on. I just hope you'll always keep in on the table for future considerations

Of course you can always try to play Rome that way, but I won't make that their UHV because I don't want their difficulty to be that high.

The hardcoded buff sounds like a good idea but would make the game a bit more tedious to play if players have to take into consideration which locations would provide the buffs. Resources and random events (like exotic bird feathers) do a good job in the sense your cursor lets you know think and strategize where you think the best city would be. Map changes can easily make Mumbai (give more resources and maybe some more grasslands) and Silk Road cities (maybe give a +1 commerce to all "silk road" containing tiles and give them a bit more resources) better locations. Not sure how much can be done for New York or Caribbeans. Maybe for those places, increasing the food/commerce/production bonus of tiles and resources surrounding those areas is the only way to go without giving cities the direct buff.

My other idea was to implement it like Corporations: silk route cities get commerce for every silk ressource owned, Caribbean for every sugar and cotton and the East Indies for spices.

Babili is only 50 miles south of Baghdad. That's less than the width of a tile. Maybe it could just be renamed Baghdad?

Could be possible. The current Baghdad tile is 1E on the stone.

Have you looked into the palace moving idea I mentioned to help out Arabs (from Mecca to largest population city at certain year) and Carthaginians (from Sur to Carthage), and possibly be something that could work for Chinese (from Luoyang to Beijing) and Romans (from Rome to Constantinople)? I think a little randomization in capital location (such as possibility of Arabs centered around either Baghdad or Cairo) might give the mod some more replayability.

I'm already considering it. It could bring many possibilities, such as Vienna->Berlin (until Prussia is in), Oslo->Stockholm (until Sweden is in), Kyoto->Tokyo etc.

Sorry, one more thing. What do you think about having the idea for a "great rival" kind of civ? There could be two AI civs randomly selected in each game that has a secret and somewhat substantial production, commerce, research and stability boost. AI Mongols with the secret boost ideally would actually be able to create the Mongol empire to 3/4th its historical extent. An AI Carthage with the secret boost might be able to actually for once win the Punic Wars and take over the Italian Peninsula. If an AI Aztecs randomly received the secret boost and beeline the right techs, they might even be the ones to first make contact between the Old and New World rather than vice-versa. I don't know how many of us are tired of seeing England, Germany and Arabia as the top 3 AI civs by the 1800's time after time after time. Maybe some randomization would add a bit more novelty.

You mean like the "lucky nations" feature of EU3? I don't know if everyone would like it though, maybe it could become a custom option somewhere in the future.

 

[Leoreth]

ok, now this is just weird... I am playing through the 3000 bc scenario as egypt (again) going for the UHV. I found my capital right on top of the wheat, build the sphynx, and after several tries - I finally get the freakin great artist - woohoo! 2 UHVS done, then I do all the other stuff and get the 3 wonders built. Yay - now all I have to do is sit around until turn 152 (can't be too hard right?) and then, at turn 144 I -press enter to end turn- and the screen goes black, takes me to desktop and gives me an error message. A generic error, I figured - not so - I reload from an autosave from turn 144, loads properly, and when I end the turn, the exact same thing happens - (freakin save must be corrupted or something I thought) - I load an earlier save, trying to do everything I can as differently as possible (move units, build different stuff, etc...) no dice, exactly when I end my turn 144 the same thing happens.

I don't know if it is just with egypt or the 3000 bc scenario in general - maybe someone else has had issues with your newest version of the mod? At any rate, I suspect that the error relates to the newest version somehow, as I had never had something like this - reocurring at exactly that turn ever before.

I don't know if any part of the error message may be useful to you, I will soon post what I can, could be helpful, if there is something specific you might need let me know - I fear it may not be an error exclusive to my computer/specific situation, but who knows? maybe it is just me.

Im playin in normal speed, btw.

Edit: Screens should be up. I started a new game with egypt, founded the capital on the same spot and just basically sat around without doing nothing till turn 144 - the weird error didn't happen, neither when I did the same with the maya (the maya actually start after turn 144). Might be useful if I upload the save of the game where I got the error, I have attached it (just end turn till you reach turn 145 - if you manage to reach that turn, that is).

Thanks for the report! It was indeed a problem with the modmod, not with your system. For some reason the respawn mechanism was triggered when it shouldn't, so I added an additional check and the CTD disappeared

You can download a patch below (simply unzip into your Mods folder).

 

[Jusos2108]

Rhye tried it in the early version, it wasn't possible for the player to recreate it in any remotely historical timeline.

It is/was possible, check it your self here!

And to the point: I have followed this thread for a while and I really like what you're trying to accomplish, so I'll definetly start playing this now!

 

[LuKo]

Do you really want to meet and greet Cleopatra in 1500?

I think not. But the best solution for me is to add more leaderheads. And the best solution not to see Egypt in 1500 is to make Arabia more eager of conquering it

 

[Leoreth]

It is/was possible, check it your self here!

And to the point: I have followed this thread for a while and I really like what you're trying to accomplish, so I'll definetly start playing this now!

Reading that always scores +1 motivation for me

And your Rome achievement is really impressive! Maybe we could find a compromise and reduce the required cities in the west and replace them with more conquest in the east

I think not. But the best solution for me is to add more leaderheads. And the best solution not to see Egypt in 1500 is to make Arabia more eager of conquering it

I agree. Maybe a war on spawn is all that's necessary ...

 

[The Turk]

Ever thought about having the Arabs be the Ummayad Caliphate and the Moors, but having a respawned Babylon as the Abbasids? I think that could make the game soo much more interesting. Especially if you add Damascus to the game, like I did.

 

[Cethegus]

Especially if you add Damascus to the game, like I did.

600 AD, 1E from Alexandretta? I tried that too but couldn't get Turks and Arabs to rename it properly. Did you?

 

[Leoreth]

There's not really enough space for a decently populated Damascus imo

I've just played a Viking game to see how fast one can make it to America. I settled Vinland in 1250 AD, but also waged a little war against England for fun and didn't optimize anything at all. Had I sent a missionary along with my settler to Reykjavik, I could've made it there 8 turns earlier, for instance.

I say this because I'd like to tweak Vikings' UHV a bit:
- Found a city in America by 1150 AD
- Control one European capital by 1100 AD
- Make 500 (or 1000?) gold by plundering (improvements and cities)

What do you think?

By the way, I found it odd that many English city names don't change when Vikings conquer them. I wasn't able to quickly find the Viking name for London, can anyone help me out? And what if we used an earlier Anglo-Saxon name (London was called Lundenwic at some point)?

 

[rob85]

London can be called Lundúnir. I haven't found any Viking names, this is Icelandic name. As far as I know Icelandic is pretty similar to the Viking's language.

 

[rigo92]

Thanks for the report! It was indeed a problem with the modmod, not with your system. For some reason the respawn mechanism was triggered when it shouldn't, so I added an additional check and the CTD disappeared

You can download a patch below (simply unzip into your Mods folder).

Thank you very much, I was now finally able to finish (and win) that game as egypt.
That being said, if anyone looked at my save, I made achieving the UHV seem easy (when in actual fact I was just sitting here with my fingers crossed that I would get a GA and not a great prophet - the GA kills two birds in one shot).

 

[rigo92]

There's not really enough space for a decently populated Damascus imo

I've just played a Viking game to see how fast one can make it to America. I settled Vinland in 1250 AD, but also waged a little war against England for fun and didn't optimize anything at all. Had I sent a missionary along with my settler to Reykjavik, I could've made it there 8 turns earlier, for instance.

I say this because I'd like to tweak Vikings' UHV a bit:
- Found a city in America by 1150 AD
- Control one European capital by 1100 AD
- Make 500 (or 1000?) gold by plundering (improvements and cities)

What do you think?

By the way, I found it odd that many English city names don't change when Vikings conquer them. I wasn't able to quickly find the Viking name for London, can anyone help me out? And what if we used an earlier Anglo-Saxon name (London was called Lundenwic at some point)?

Good idea for the UHV, I always thought that 5000 gold was way too much to achieve just by pillaging (yeah I know, it didn't have to be all from pillaging), but even then having a huge economy isn't exactly the viking's forte (what with only having a 2 star trade rating). The America thing sounds reasonable, might wanna bump it to 1200 (or leave it as is). As for the european capital thing, why not allow us to raze it? After all none is in your core area, when I play as vikings, I usually kill the french, english, germans and dutch - in that order as those 4 tend to annoy me the most - spain and portugal I leave alone as they don't get in my way at all.

Edit: I also see from your screenshot that you got to iceland and then canada, but since you don't have a city in ireland or high up in britain (and im assuming you have not used a GA), I don't see how you got to iceland crossing an ocean tile "within cultural borders", maybe you changed something or maybe I missed something.

 

[Leoreth]

London can be called Lundúnir. I haven't found any Viking names, this is Icelandic name. As far as I know Icelandic is pretty similar to the Viking's language.

Thanks! That'll suffice, at least until some Vikings expert objects

Thank you very much, I was now finally able to finish (and win) that game as egypt.
That being said, if anyone looked at my save, I made achieving the UHV seem easy (when in actual fact I was just sitting here with my fingers crossed that I would get a GA and not a great prophet - the GA kills two birds in one shot).

Yeah ... I guess you generated that GA via the Sphinx?

Good idea for the UHV, I always thought that 5000 gold was way too much to achieve just by pillaging (yeah I know, it didn't have to be all from pillaging), but even then having a huge economy isn't exactly the viking's forte (what with only having a 2 star trade rating). The America thing sounds reasonable, might wanna bump it to 1200 (or leave it as is). As for the european capital thing, why not allow us to raze it? After all none is in your core area, when I play as vikings, I usually kill the french, english, germans and dutch - in that order as those 4 tend to annoy me the most - spain and portugal I leave alone as they don't get in my way at all.

You're right, I want to get away from Vikings having to produce money or make great merchants ... it doesn't feel very Vikingish Now I just have to figure out how to best count the pillaged gold ...

The America deadline has to be balanced, of course, but even in my game 1150 AD would've been possible, and there's still a lot to optimize.

The "control a capital" condition is meant to represent one of the Norman kingdoms in Europe (Normandy, Sicily, Kievan Rus) or a sustained Viking rule over England. Therefore, no raze.

Edit: I also see from your screenshot that you got to iceland and then canada, but since you don't have a city in ireland or high up in britain (and im assuming you have not used a GA), I don't see how you got to iceland crossing an ocean tile "within cultural borders", maybe you changed something or maybe I missed something.

I read recently here on the boards that one ocean tile on the way to Iceland switches to coast after the first player discovers Compass - and it's true! It's approximately where the Hebrides are IRL.
Therefore the fastest way to Vinland would probably be to build two settlers and a missionary and to beeline for Compass, but that'd get you in huge trouble to capture a capital in time.

 

[LuKo]

Vikings were great merchants as far as I know. But probably I haven't watched enough American films

 

[The Turk]

Ok Guys this is what you do (and what I did):

1. REMOVE Alexandretta (its a no-name city, I'm Turkish, and I've barley every heard of Iskenderun)
2. Instead I moved the city one tile north, and created Antioch instead. (much more significant)
3. I then moved Konya (Icounium) one tile west, and made the Turks spawn there, again Sogot, didn't know about it, until Rhye popped it up, Iconium, is a MUCH better city anyways, and geographically it can go on that tile, without it being too much of a hassle anyways.
4. I had Damascus spawn there already, by the beginning of 600AD game, and forced the Arabs to move their capital there. (Mecca was NEVER the capital, Medina was)
5. If I continued, I would have had the Babylonians re-spawn and create Baghdad,

but thats basically the ideal situation. Also I would recommend forcing Arabia to delete any previous religion in their cities. So if they capture Persia for example, all the Zoroastrianism/Buddhism/Hinduism will be erased, and when they capture Turkey later on, the cities they capture ie. Antioch, will have Christianity removed; as today Christians in Antioch are a very small minority.

As for the Viking UHV, can you please make it so that its like this:
Own 1 city in each of the following:
Britain, France (Brittany), Sicily, Russia by X date

I think, if you could have that, that would be better overall. Or else EVERYONE is going to go for London, while this UHV, although it tells you were to have a city, it doesn't label the exact spot, so it makes sense to have them found/conquer cities around Europe, that would be a much more interesting UHV IMO.

 

[Leoreth]

Vikings were great merchants as far as I know. But probably I haven't watched enough American films

They were, but being a merchant in Civ amounts to sitting around in your cities and hire specialists, which isn't quite what they did.

Ok Guys this is what you do (and what I did):

1. REMOVE Alexandretta (its a no-name city, I'm Turkish, and I've barley every heard of Iskenderun)
2. Instead I moved the city one tile north, and created Antioch instead. (much more significant)
3. I then moved Konya (Icounium) one tile west, and made the Turks spawn there, again Sogot, didn't know about it, until Rhye popped it up, Iconium, is a MUCH better city anyways, and geographically it can go on that tile, without it being too much of a hassle anyways.
4. I had Damascus spawn there already, by the beginning of 600AD game, and forced the Arabs to move their capital there. (Mecca was NEVER the capital, Medina was)
5. If I continued, I would have had the Babylonians re-spawn and create Baghdad,

but thats basically the ideal situation. Also I would recommend forcing Arabia to delete any previous religion in their cities. So if they capture Persia for example, all the Zoroastrianism/Buddhism/Hinduism will be erased, and when they capture Turkey later on, the cities they capture ie. Antioch, will have Christianity removed; as today Christians in Antioch are a very small minority.

Konya is not a very good spawn site imo, because in RFC the Turks are clearly the Ottomans (hence the spawn date), and at least Sogut once was an Ottoman capital (before Bursa and Edirne iirc).

And I could modify Arabia's UP that it also erases every other religion (except holy cities). Would also be helpful for their UHV.

 

[rigo92]

I think that we should be allowed (as any civ) to remove non-state religions on capture, I mean come on, it is not something in the least bit irrealistic. The only exception of course, being holy cities. As for post-conquest religious control, I think an inquisitor unit, like in RFC europe should be in place, although the full extent to which persecutions should affect diplomacy is debatable.

 

[Leoreth]

I could imagine adding something like that in the long run.