Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

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Mark the Apostle is the patron saint of Venice. You'll find statues of his "winged lion" symbol all over the city. So, yes, I'm moving Late Medieval / Renaissance with Italy.

I planned the UHV to have one renaissance, one modern, and one combined condition, like that:
  • Be first to discover Banking, Optics, Radio and Fascism
  • Acquire 8 happiness resources in 1500 AD
  • Control Greece, Libya and Ethiopia in 1930 AD
The only problem I currently have is that there's no decent Italian Renaissance leaderhead around here.

You can set the capital/spawn coordinates in Consts.py in the variable tCapitals. Look for "#Arabia", for example.
 
Determining the coordinates is quite circuitious. There are basically two methods:

1. Go to the Atlas, look for a tile near it that you know the coordinates of (e.g. the spawn tiles currently stored in tCapitals - they are also marked in the atlas) and start counting tiles vertically and horizontally until you at your desired tile and do the math. It's important to know that an increase in numbers means further north / east, respectively.

2. Start the game and open the world builder. There you can place text marks on the landscape. Click at your tile an name it "Baghdad" or whatever. Then save the WB as scenario (just don't name it like the existing scenarios, or they'll be overwritten). Open the wbsave file with a text editor program and search for the name you gave the tile. You should get to the marker tag that has its coordinates saved.

Yeah, it is that difficult.
 
Just stepping in to say I'm progressing well at the moment. Italy only needs dynamic names, its own city names and a new settler map and it's ready for release :)
 
Arabia spawning with Baghdad? I like it. It's a much more central position to expand into Persia/Outremer/Egypt, and, that means I won't have games with an empty Fertile Crescent into the 1500s anymore. Awesome.
 
Some ideas for small changes.
Spoiler :
mesopotamiamapchangesco.png


I agree about Baghdad being the Arab capital. 2 ideas (already have been brought up in some form or another): 1) have Arabs spawn at Baghdad a bit after Islam being founded at Mecca. or 2) have Arabs spawn at Mecca, then script a capital change to Baghdad (Baghdad would be already founded as independent city). How difficult would it be to script their capital to Baghdad 80% of time and 20% of time to Cairo?

With changing the Arab capital from Mecca, I think the western coast of Arabia would only need half as many resources as it does now. Maybe spread the other resources around the rest of the Arab empire.

I think moving both Baghdad and Babylon 1 tile North of the current Babylon start would give Mesopotamia a chance at having 2 decent cities (Babylon/Baghdad in north and a city in the south such as Ur or Basra).

Jerusalem is moved 1S to give it water access as well as to make more room for Sur. Resources are shifted a bit to make Sardis (renamed Gordium) a much better city. The Persian war map should greatly emphasize capture Sardis. Maybe they could even have a couple military units spawn a couple units there after their spawn.



Regarding moving Marseille 1W... Marseille is definitely on the east side of the Rhone. How would things look if the river is shifted 1W as well? Having Milan instead of Venice and Genoa would mean it would mean for both the 3000BC and 600AD scenarios, Italy's start would be comparable. Historically Milan was also one of the more dominant Italian city states as well. Too bad Milan and Venice can't mutually coexist in this game... Maybe Romans could get some city other than Mediolanum in the 3000BC scenario?

Personally I do agree with the earlier Italian civ spawn. But there are some problems however. (you're prolly aware of them already, but just in case...)

The problem with recreating a single Italian civ was that Italy/Italian cities were a great power at two different time periods, once during the Renaissance, and then again after the 19th century. In between that time their lands were contested between France, Spain and Austria.

Vikings and Sweden could be easily represented as one civ because in between their two periods of greatness, their lands were never occupied for multiple centuries by foreign powers. Italy on the other hand was completely dominated by foreign powers between 1600 and 1800.
 
Determining the coordinates is quite circuitious.
...
Yeah, it is that difficult.

(77,40) I used the coordiantes of Babylon as a guide for my suggestion for Baghdad's location so it doesn't interfere with the Levant. It is on the stone (I would move it). Simple change... but I'd hate to do it for most civs. Wow. Modding takes a lot of time, huh? OH! If you move Baghdad--to guarantee Makkah, give Arabia 2 total settlers and build an indie Makkah that gets Islam automatically.

Just stepping in to say I'm progressing well at the moment. Italy only needs dynamic names, its own city names and a new settler map and it's ready for release :)

Good Job! Can't wait.
 
Some ideas for small changes.
Spoiler :
mesopotamiamapchangesco.png
Quick commentary:
- I think moving Jerusalem 1S is a good idea
- Mecca definitely will lose resources if it isn't the capital anymore
- Sardis being part of Persia's warmap sounds good, but moving two fish resources into its BFC seems like too much
- Babylon feels to far north in that position ...
- a triggered Fort spawn on Cyprus makes sense if not under human control

I agree about Baghdad being the Arab capital. 2 ideas (already have been brought up in some form or another): 1) have Arabs spawn at Baghdad a bit after Islam being founded at Mecca. or 2) have Arabs spawn at Mecca, then script a capital change to Baghdad (Baghdad would be already founded as independent city). How difficult would it be to script their capital to Baghdad 80% of time and 20% of time to Cairo?
The thing is, Islam is founded by the Arabs because they spawn with Divine Right. Its holy city will be the first city, wherever they found it.
Making the capital spawn random is one option, the other is to automatically shift the capital to Baghdad on founding/conquest and to Cairo if Baghdad isn't acquired at a certain date (say, 1100 AD).

Regarding moving Marseille 1W... Marseille is definitely on the east side of the Rhone. How would things look if the river is shifted 1W as well? Having Milan instead of Venice and Genoa would mean it would mean for both the 3000BC and 600AD scenarios, Italy's start would be comparable. Historically Milan was also one of the more dominant Italian city states as well. Too bad Milan and Venice can't mutually coexist in this game... Maybe Romans could get some city other than Mediolanum in the 3000BC scenario?
I think shifting the Rhone would be too much (it looks wrong). Cities often happen to be at the wrong side of their rivers, just look at Mainz and Cologne at the Rhine.

With a little stretch we could assign the tile 1N of Genoa the name Milan as well (though it's actually Turin, which only became important in later centuries though). Then the player could decide between founding Genoa or Milan, who both had their prominent history in Italy. The preplaced 3000 BC Milan does mess things up though.

Personally I do agree with the earlier Italian civ spawn. But there are some problems however. (you're prolly aware of them already, but just in case...)

The problem with recreating a single Italian civ was that Italy/Italian cities were a great power at two different time periods, once during the Renaissance, and then again after the 19th century. In between that time their lands were contested between France, Spain and Austria.

Vikings and Sweden could be easily represented as one civ because in between their two periods of greatness, their lands were never occupied for multiple centuries by foreign powers. Italy on the other hand was completely dominated by foreign powers between 1600 and 1800.
Well, we can't keep the cake and eat it, unfortunately. It's a little bit unrealistic to have Italy survive, but I'll try to get some historical accuracy into it by making Italy rather weak militarily (they have low production anyway), so that there's still a chance they get eaten by their neighbours and respawn (via Nationalism this time) somewhere in the 19th century.

(77,40) I used the coordiantes of Babylon as a guide for my suggestion for Baghdad's location so it doesn't interfere with the Levant. It is on the stone (I would move it). Simple change... but I'd hate to do it for most civs. Wow. Modding takes a lot of time, huh? OH! If you move Baghdad--to guarantee Makkah, give Arabia 2 total settlers and build an indie Makkah that gets Islam automatically.
You get used to it, most of the time. It gets worse when you try to do something the system is not made for yet :)
 
Speaking of capitals, a capital in a foreign core area switch to the rising civ nonetheless? What happens if you accept the switch?

(To put things in context, in my Phoenicians game, catholicism was founded in Jerusalem (independent) which flipped to me after I converted; I put my palace there to keep it from switching to the Arabs but I was still asked to let it go - as I was for Sur, my former capital! So I'd lose my capital to the Arabs no matter what?)
 
1. What about having the Ottomans spawn without any settler at all? Rhye did so as a matter of principle, but their history would rather encourage a "military spawn" like in SoI. They could get the missing settlers they need for further expanding upon conquest of Constantinople.

2. For the preplaced cities, Sinope and Antiocheia would be my preferred couple.

3. I was also considering to have Arabs spawn on Baghdad's tile, but what should happen in the 3000 BC scenario with Babylonia or Persia still alive? The game currently isn't able to set different spawn locations for different scenarios. Another problem would be Islam being founded in Baghdad, not Mecca, because it flips too late. Some scripting may circumvent that, but it's a lot of interference for that little feature.

Wouldn't it be more sound to encourage Arabia to found Baghdad and then automove its capital there, like it's done with Turkish Constantinople?
1. Agreed, that sounds good
2. FINE ;), if you don't want to add Damascus, I guess its ok... But yes then, change Alexandretta to Antioch (the different variations of it)
3. Agreed! That sound great! But I would have it so that they found their capital in Mecca, and then have a strong urge to move to Baghdad; that would sound great!

Also Europe is expanding to the New World a bit too late in my opinion (late 16th century)
 
Thanks as always for provide quick feedback! :)

Quick commentary:
- I think moving Jerusalem 1S is a good idea
- Mecca definitely will lose resources if it isn't the capital anymore
- Sardis being part of Persia's warmap sounds good, but moving two fish resources into its BFC seems like too much
- Babylon feels to far north in that position ...
- a triggered Fort spawn on Cyprus makes sense if not under human control

Forgot to mention that I added an extra desert tile somewhere since otherwise the Jerusalem would be a canal.

Yay for more realistic Arabia!

I figured that way there'd definitely be a fish resource for Sardis in case Byzantium or Sur take over one. I did take out the wheat it was sitting on so I thought maybe moving the fish around would help balance that out.
I recall you mentioned earlier something about an idea for autorazing cities. If that's the case, then there's more flexibility with leaving Hatti (city that represents Hittites) in the game. After all, Hatti + Sardis(Gordium) makes Asia Minor suck.


Relative to Tyre, it's not too far north. But I suppose looks a bit north on the map as well. I still think two cities in Mesopotamia is better. Historically lower Mesopotamia's always been pretty urbanized but RFC's never done a good job representing that.

The thing is, Islam is founded by the Arabs because they spawn with Divine Right. Its holy city will be the first city, wherever they found it.
Making the capital spawn random is one option, the other is to automatically shift the capital to Baghdad on founding/conquest and to Cairo if Baghdad isn't acquired at a certain date (say, 1100 AD).
Interesting. Are you considering only offering this free palace move for AIs? If human players are offered this opportunity too, then this could be an easy one of those "civ specific quests" you mentioned earlier. The bonus would be the free palace change and maybe a little bit of something else.


I think shifting the Rhone would be too much (it looks wrong). Cities often happen to be at the wrong side of their rivers, just look at Mainz and Cologne at the Rhine.

With a little stretch we could assign the tile 1N of Genoa the name Milan as well (though it's actually Turin, which only became important in later centuries though). Then the player could decide between founding Genoa or Milan, who both had their prominent history in Italy. The preplaced 3000 BC Milan does mess things up though.


Well, we can't keep the cake and eat it, unfortunately. It's a little bit unrealistic to have Italy survive, but I'll try to get some historical accuracy into it by making Italy rather weak militarily (they have low production anyway), so that there's still a chance they get eaten by their neighbours and respawn (via Nationalism this time) somewhere in the 19th century.

Good points. I was kinda hoping a similar idea could've been done with keeping Vikings and Sweden the same civ with UHVs that represent accomplishments over time. Anywho, so I'm guessing you'd be planning on changing location of 3000BC Milan?

Also I don't know how difficult this might be, but making the Italian AI from 1600's to 1800's a bit more likely to ask to be someone else's vassal state might do a fair job representing Italy dominated by foreign powers.
 
Speaking of capitals, a capital in a foreign core area switch to the rising civ nonetheless? What happens if you accept the switch?

(To put things in context, in my Phoenicians game, catholicism was founded in Jerusalem (independent) which flipped to me after I converted; I put my palace there to keep it from switching to the Arabs but I was still asked to let it go - as I was for Sur, my former capital! So I'd lose my capital to the Arabs no matter what?)
I'm not sure at the moment ... does Sur flip as well, even if it is your capital?

The reason for capitals flipping is that otherwise their exception would be easily exploitable; many "squatting" tactics relied on this (e.g. build London as Vikings and make it your capital to avoid having it flip to England). I figured that even if Phoenicia loses Sur, they'd be forced to move their capital to Carthage, which is even historical. But maybe that's too harsh on a human player.

Also Europe is expanding to the New World a bit too late in my opinion (late 16th century)
Do you mean expanding as in discovering or as in sending settlers? Because the latter would seem historical to me for the late 16th century.

Forgot to mention that I added an extra desert tile somewhere since otherwise the Jerusalem would be a canal.
Good idea :)

I recall you mentioned earlier something about an idea for autorazing cities. If that's the case, then there's more flexibility with leaving Hatti (city that represents Hittites) in the game. After all, Hatti + Sardis(Gordium) makes Asia Minor suck.
I've currently have it hardcoded that whenever Hattusas and Gordium are conquered, they automatically get razed. That's mainly to stop Phoenicia from having ahistorical cities in Asia Minor, but it helps clearing up the area as well.

This solution is far from optimal, of course, because it also affects all later cities founded on these spots, and makes Persia conquering Sardis impossible.

Relative to Tyre, it's not too far north. But I suppose looks a bit north on the map as well. I still think two cities in Mesopotamia is better. Historically lower Mesopotamia's always been pretty urbanized but RFC's never done a good job representing that.
Ur can still be built, I've even seen a surviving AI Babylonia building Ur and Ninova quite regularly.

Interesting. Are you considering only offering this free palace move for AIs? If human players are offered this opportunity too, then this could be an easy one of those "civ specific quests" you mentioned earlier. The bonus would be the free palace change and maybe a little bit of something else.
The automove would be AI only, yes. Having this as a quest would be a nice idea for later versions, though :)

Good points. I was kinda hoping a similar idea could've been done with keeping Vikings and Sweden the same civ with UHVs that represent accomplishments over time. Anywho, so I'm guessing you'd be planning on changing location of 3000BC Milan?

Also I don't know how difficult this might be, but making the Italian AI from 1600's to 1800's a bit more likely to ask to be someone else's vassal state might do a fair job representing Italy dominated by foreign powers.
Currently I think it'd be best to move Mediolanum 1W, which would open up the Venice/Bologna alternative in that scenario.

And I'm rather reluctant to intefere that specifically with the AI ...
 
Italian city names:

attachment.php


Did I get anything completely wrong? Left anything out? I know Napoli and Firenze (Florence) are too far south and north respectively, but this way they at least have a chance of being built with Rome already there. I'm also considering to move Venice east to allow for more possibilities in Lombardy. The western Milano could also be Torino/Turin.
 
I would put Bari on the sheep (at least thats where I'm putting it for my mod)
I would also change the tile next to Palermo, and instead put Syracuse, which was an important city.
Also, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bologna in the wrong place?
 
It is also possible to replace the coast tile with clams (the clams would move 1E) by grassland and make that the actual Venice tile. Then Milan could be on the wheat and 1W. I think it wouldn't even make Italy too deformed.
 
I think the names are good. But IMO these should be changed.

- The west Milano should be Torino
- Firenze/Florence should be Parma
- Perugia should be Firenze/Florence
- Benevento should be Napoli
- Napoli should be Cosenza
- Catania should be Siracusa
 
I think the names are good. But IMO these should be changed.

- The west Milano should be Torino
Yeah, I also think so.

- Firenze/Florence should be Parma
- Perugia should be Firenze/Florence
- Benevento should be Napoli
- Napoli should be Cosenza
Florence and Napoli are comparatively important cities, so imo it would be nice to have them; would I put their tiles next to Rome we would almost never see them.

- Catania should be Siracusa
On Siracusa: the map only contains the names that are used when a new city is founded. Italy can still get Siracusa, because that tile is called Syrakusai for Greece, and when Syrakusai becomes Italian it gets renamed to Siracusa. I think that's the best way to have them all.

I would put Bari on the sheep (at least thats where I'm putting it for my mod)
I would also change the tile next to Palermo, and instead put Syracuse, which was an important city.
Also, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bologna in the wrong place?
Bari on the sheep also was my first idea, but how to call its tile instead? We would still get Taranto via a Roman rename, by the way.

For Siracusa see above.

Well, it's actually on the corner between Pisa/Firenze/Perugia/Bologna, so not too far off.

It is also possible to replace the coast tile with clams (the clams would move 1E) by grassland and make that the actual Venice tile. Then Milan could be on the wheat and 1W. I think it wouldn't even make Italy too deformed.
I've just tested it, it somehow looks wrong. Best solution would obviously be to place the city on water, but unfortunately that's impossible ;)
But if Venice moves 1E, I'll also move the hill 1E. Venice on a hill is just wrong.
 
Okay, the city name map is done, and I've included a check for most Roman->Italian name changes and changing names for Italian cities in French and German (they're most likely to conquer them at first).

Now off to doing the stability map. With the map I can only decide whether a tile falls into:

1) historical/contested area
2) foreign/foreign core area

Contested and foreign core are both determined by checking if someone else has their core on that tile.

So where should Italy be green/yellow? Tunisia, Libya, Somalia come to my mind of course. Dalmatia, Albania and Greece as well. Crimea, Crete and Cyprus could be in to represent Genoa's and Venice's colonies there. Anything else?
 
Wouldn't it be better to let the Romans have one settler more and remove Mediolanum as a pre-placed city ? It might also lead to more variety in Roman cities in 3000BC.
 
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