Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

Basically when a European nation discovers either the Incas or the Aztecs first, they get a free army right? So I'm saying, that with that army, they get an additional 2-3 Christian Missionaries (or whatever their state religion is).

Sounds reasonable.

Also I would recommend a Chinese revival in 1368, to simulate the rise of the Ming Dyansty, and the overthrow of the Mongols, that way we could actually see an independent China later on in the game.

I see that happen rather often currently. The problem is more that the Mongols often fail to take China in the first place.

What do you mean? The Netherlands always struggle with the Vikings for the last place in the scoreboard (excluding Amerindian civs of course).

That they're low on score is no wonder because they can't field large armies or control huge landmasses. My impression is however that they found enough colonies and also can keep up in the techrace.

 

[AOS9001]

The Mongols almost always take China in my games. Then we get people fighting over the cities (mostly Khmer and Mongolia) until the 1900s when China inevitably comes back. I support a respawn in the 1360s.

Also, even though this was already answered in a way, Greece was invaded by Italy in WWII, so I guess that's why it's a condition. As we know though, the invasion was total failure, and the Germans came in to finish what their friends started.

 

[Leoreth]

The Mongols almost always take China in my games. Then we get people fighting over the cities (mostly Khmer and Mongolia) until the 1900s when China inevitably comes back. I support a respawn in the 1360s.

Also, even though this was already answered in a way, Greece was invaded by Italy in WWII, so I guess that's why it's a condition. As we know though, the invasion was total failure, and the Germans came in to finish what their friends started.

1360 is too early, even if it's historical. The Mongols should be rewarded with some time there.

And yeah, the Italians were very useful in opening up new fronts in that war

 

[AOS9001]

1360 is too early, even if it's historical. The Mongols should be rewarded with some time there.

And yeah, the Italians were very useful in opening up new fronts in that war

Maybe 1500s would be better, give China a chance to become the uber-power it became in that time. After all, the whole point of everything from exploration to technological advance was to essentially trade/compete with China. Why else would they send boats to find a way there?

 

[Leoreth]

Agree, 1500s is good. Only due for the next version though, 1.63 will be released tomorrow.

By the way, for all this Baghdad discussion, I have an amusing screenshot for you.

 

[AOS9001]

Maybe a few more longbowmen would have sufficed... What do you plan to do next after you've straightened out Italy and got this Baghdad issue done?

 

[AdrienIer]

The problem with destroying the Abur Farnbag is that Arabia would then have to control everything from India to Spain to win the UHV. Is that really historical ? In 1300, Delhi was certainly not in muslim hands, even less in Arabian ones.
Two things : first, is it normal that the Mongols flip chinese Chu-Ko-Nu ?
And secondly, is it possible to squat lisboa with Spain ?

 

[Leoreth]

Oh, I didn't do anything with Baghdad so far ... that happened under the usual circumstances.

Yeah, I also think the shrine should stay to allow Arabia's UHV.

And it is normal that Cho-ko-nus flip to Mongolia if they're in the right position - UUs are not exempt from flipping as you see with the often-encountered American redcoats.

I don't think it's possible, what should prevent Lisboa from flipping to the Portuguese? Being capital doesn't protect it.

 

[fireclaw722]

And secondly, is it possible to squat lisboa with Spain ?

I know Rhye disabled squatting, and I think he re-enabled it through a 'cheat-code' type thing, which is Ctrl+C(don't hold me to it though).

 

[Jusos2108]

Oh, I never thought about that. Scotland makes my mind spin.

Preplaced Inverness doesn't do its importance justice, preplaces Edinburgh confuses the AI so that it doesn't found North English cities anymore, and now that objection. I'll see what I can do.


I was thinking like you before, but the more I pondered the question, the more I was convinced of a Renaissance spawn.

Hmm, if the AI has difficulties with Edinburgh, it makes me wonder if Rhye chose Inverness over it for that same reason. However, we basicly need England to have two cities north of London. How it would best presented/implemented; I have no idea...

At first I also didn't feel too comfortable with renaissance Italy, but the more I think about it the more I want to see them in the game and play as them. Just make sure that they don't flip all of italy at spawn and that their dynamic names represent them fairly. Like Lombardian League, etc.

 

[rob85]

That they're low on score is no wonder because they can't field large armies or control huge landmasses. My impression is however that they found enough colonies and also can keep up in the techrace.

No, they don't, at least in my games. They usually found two or three colonies and start to turtle (as Vikings sometimes with only Oslo and Stockholm until the end of the game). Units don't count anyway and the points from territory aren't that high. Their main problem in getting higher is slow research rate. They are backwards after a century every time.
Maybe this is present only in the marathon?

 

[dcode147]

@Leoreth
I at first liked the idea of having Italy come back in the 19th century, as a strong unified state; and then you said that they were going to spawn in the Renaissance, which I was so-so ok with, AND NOW your saying that you want to move the emphasis to the Renaissance!
Personally I feel that Italy was a collection of city-states! And if you want to represent that, then just add feuding independent cities, across Italy, and have Italy spawn in the 19th century en force.

Meh, this is a tough issue. I've also had the same concerns about Greece and China having one civ at times representing what historically would've been many smaller factions. I think for the Italy and Greece situations, having both spawn with a "city-states" civic enabled would make things good enough for me. China could maybe have a couple independent cities (some autorazed, others in good locations are not) in the 3000BC start as well.

Depends. Do you have any concrete ideas? [for multiple civ unique units and unique buildings]

I don't have any specific ideas so far. I think there are many other mods that have graphics and ideas for additional unique units and unique buildings. Other forumers prolly have lots of ideas and suggestions to go along with this as well.

As unhelpful as I had thought China's UU was, I think mostly that's only because with the current combat system and with China's current barbarian and civ opponents, its Cho-Ko-Nus don't serve much of an important purpose.

Load turns is exactly the reason why I think Rhye didn't do it like you suggested. See how it works on the example of Greece's UHV: [...]

How do religion and "first to research gets GP" techs work? Cuz would it be possible then to give the Greek player a message akin to "you have been the first to discover literature!"? (if that works, same could be applied to other civ UHVs such as Babylon's)

4 UHV conditions wouldn't be much work, but I would only add them if it were for everyone, and that would need a lot more ideas.

I still think it's the better alternative to see Persia/India respawn with new Safavid/Mughal goals, because it wouldn't force me to get rid of some of Rhye's perfectly good conditions. I'm currently divided whether the same is true for Vikings/Sweden.

Again, with coming up with ideas, I'm sure that won't be a problem for people on this forum. If you don't want to change to any of Rhye's 3 UHVs, then you can always make only the 4th one for Persians (representing both Achamenids and Safaids) and India (representing both ancient Indian states and Mughals) be specifically to be achieved later so that they don't compete with Rhye's UHVs.
Eg: Persian UHVs will be the 3 they have now + 4) maybe something like "Be #1 in land area, troop strength, culture and score, among Islamic nations in 1660." That way Rhye's balance with the original 3 UHVs could be maintained if someone so wishes to try and achieve the earlier (Rhye's) UHVs.

 

[Leoreth]

Hmm, if the AI has difficulties with Edinburgh, it makes me wonder if Rhye chose Inverness over it for that same reason. However, we basicly need England to have two cities north of London. How it would best presented/implemented; I have no idea...

I never understood why Rhye chose Inverness, but now I know that he was just smarter than me
It is of course more optimal to only have London+Edinburgh (I always play England with that combo), but for historicity a Newcastle/Manchester/York should be there.

At first I also didn't feel too comfortable with renaissance Italy, but the more I think about it the more I want to see them in the game and play as them. Just make sure that they don't flip all of italy at spawn and that their dynamic names represent them fairly. Like Lombardian League, etc.

Yeah, Lombard League is among their early dynamic names. They also won't flip Rome as soon as they have enough space for two cities in Lombardy/Tuscany.

No, they don't, at least in my games. They usually found two or three colonies and start to turtle (as Vikings sometimes with only Oslo and Stockholm until the end of the game). Units don't count anyway and the points from territory aren't that high. Their main problem in getting higher is slow research rate. They are backwards after a century every time.
Maybe this is present only in the marathon?

Okay, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll start adjusting their tech coefficient then and run a few test games.

I don't have any specific ideas so far. I think there are many other mods that have graphics and ideas for additional unique units and unique buildings. Other forumers prolly have lots of ideas and suggestions to go along with this as well.

As unhelpful as I had thought China's UU was, I think mostly that's only because with the current combat system and with China's current barbarian and civ opponents, its Cho-Ko-Nus don't serve much of an important purpose.

I'll try to find some niche for them when I start redoing the combat system. If you still have ideas for UUs, let them roll

How do religion and "first to research gets GP" techs work? Cuz would it be possible then to give the Greek player a message akin to "you have been the first to discover literature!"? (if that works, same could be applied to other civ UHVs such as Babylon's)

I'm not sure, but the free tech and GP effects can be modified in XML, which is why I guess the messages come from the DLL. The victory mechanics are in Python, on the other hand, and I don't want to scatter them across different languages. I'll see how easy it is to implement only a message.

Again, with coming up with ideas, I'm sure that won't be a problem for people on this forum. If you don't want to change to any of Rhye's 3 UHVs, then you can always make only the 4th one for Persians (representing both Achamenids and Safaids) and India (representing both ancient Indian states and Mughals) be specifically to be achieved later so that they don't compete with Rhye's UHVs.
Eg: Persian UHVs will be the 3 they have now + 4) maybe something like "Be #1 in land area, troop strength, culture and score, among Islamic nations in 1660." That way Rhye's balance with the original 3 UHVs could be maintained if someone so wishes to try and achieve the earlier (Rhye's) UHVs.

Okay ... again everyone is free to post his ideas here

 

[dcode147]

Okay ... again everyone is free to post his ideas here

Haha, but it depends on you if you want implement extra civ unique units & unique building ideas and also if you want to implement the "choose 3 out of 4 UHVs to accomplish" idea. Only when you sound the call to specifically ask for those ideas will people start the spamming (possibly flaming) of new unique unit, unique building and unique historical victory ideas

I guess I also just wanted more of a definitive answer as to if you wanted to go that direction or not.

 

[The Turk]

I suggest bringing in Nasser for the Egyptians later in the game; it's just that seeing Cleopatra in the 19th century looks wrong
OR if you could find him, Mohammed Ali, would actually be better IMO

Also I agree, Leoreth you should add a lot more independent cities around the map, but I would suggest especially in China, also I would add an independent Sparta or Pellas (or both) heavily defended, I think that would make for a very interesting game

 

[Sandmonster1989]

Um... I just wanted to say about Baghdad: I don't know what it is, if its just my computer or what, but I tried an Arab start from 3000bc with the capital being Baghdad, but my game crashed with several tries (not normal). It happens at least 20 turns prior to my spawning... everything worked fine with the 600ad start, though.

 

[Magnificent One]

So,do the Italians work with the latest version,or are they still being perfected?

 

[Jusos2108]

As Leoreth said yesterday:

1.63 will be released tomorrow

So that means today.

 

[Magnificent One]

*Grabs Popcorn* Im prepared to wait!

 

[AdrienIer]

Is it normal that independent cities get great generals ?
Also, although embassies are built in any of your cities when an other civ builds it in one of its cities, it would be better for the sake of accuracy to avoid the embassy to be built in the new world until 1750 : it's weird to see "a Turkish embassy has been built in Ciudad de Mexico, 10 turns after you conquered it via the conqueror's event.