Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

Zum Glück hatte ich grade nix bessres zu tun und studier Geschichte auf Lehramt

Du hast definitiv das Talent dazu Und deutsche Geschichte der Neuzeit wird in den Lehrplänen ja auch immer noch groß geschrieben

Ich hätte übrigens auch gerne Geschichte studiert, aber ich hab so meine Zweifel an meinen Fähigkeiten als Lehrer (und bin der festen Überzeugung das es nichts schlimmeres gibt als mittelmäßige Lehrer) und "richtig" Geschichte hab ich mich bei den Berufsaussichten auch nicht getraut

I have only one (two) requests.

I've truthfully wondered why the player couldn't vassalize himself. I don't know if it's not an option in the Core Civilization, I think it is, but I think it would add a decent amount of gameplay.

And then, have you removed the Colony maintenance thing, where there is bonus maintenance in colonies? The reason that was originally intended was so the player would grant "independence" to his colonies, but the option is taken away in RFC, and DoC (Although I'm not sure, haven't tried, just assuming.)

I view vassalazations more as cheap cop-outs from a superior enemy (for the AI as well, especially in BtS). What kind of gameplay advantages do you see in adding this possibility?

Yeah, it's the same as in RFC. The reason you can't liberate cities as civs is that all civs are already taken in the game, and more slots would make it even slower. You can "liberate" cities to the independents, though. The special extra colony maintenance has been disabled in RFC iirc.

 

[fabe]

Du hast definitiv das Talent dazu

Danke
Ich hatte mir auch überlegt, "normal" Historiker zu studieren, aber wie du schon gesagt hast, die Berufschancen gehen gegen 0. Da ich zum Glück ein Talent zum "Alleinunterhalter" habe ( ) und sehr gern mit Kindern und Jugendlichen arbeite, hat sich der Mittelweg zwischen Historik und annehmbaren Berufsaussichten geradezu aufgedrängt
Darf ich fragen, was du anstatt machst?

@Ready_set_go: I (for myself) can't see why one should voluntarily become a vassal state of an AI civ, or how this is supposed to be fun...

 

[Leoreth]

Naja, ich mache praktisch die andere Hälfte, die man für eine RFC Mod braucht - Informatik

 

[civ_king]

I'd just like to point out that it is against forum rules to speak non-English without an English translation. Could you please have translations?

 

[youknowwhatitis]

I think theyre just talkin about modding and history.

 

[fabe]

I'd just like to point out that it is against forum rules to speak non-English without an English translation. Could you please have translations?

Sorry for that. It's just some chitchat about Leoreth's and my studies. Maybe PM would have been better for that

Some new thoughts about the mod:

• Could the likeliness for the Britains to settle Edinburgh be increased? In about 2 of 3 games, they don't settle it. It could be an interesting idea to have Edinburgh as an independant city, being in war with the Britains, when they spawn. Simulating the struggle about Scotland?
• Same thing for Barcelona. An independant Barcelona, switching to Spain as Frankfurt does to the HRE.
• About Spain: what about an independant city in the South, representing the Moorish? I would think about a (strong garrisoned) city on the plot of Sevilla, named "Qurtuba" (arab. for Cordoba), switching the name after being conquered by the Spanish to "Sevilla". The "Reconquista" is missing entirely by now.
• I would suggest to move Marseille back to it's orignial plot. So Barcelona has more space to develop, as it was and is one of the most important cities on the Iberian Peninsula. The Italians still could settle Milano or Pisa.
• On the hill between Frankfurt and Wien, the citiy-name-manager (or whatever this thingy is called) says, this city is "Prag". But this is just so wrong, it really bothers me This plot should rather be named "Nürnberg" or "Leipzig".
• The likeliness of settling Sankt Petersburg should also be increased.
• In every game I played, on several speeds and difficulties, Kyev was ALWAYS conquered by the Vikings. As historically Kyev de facto was a settlement of people from Scandinavia, it should yet be rather Russian, imo.
• I like sending an unit eastwards, like a swordsman. And it's always the same: I contact the Chinese at Chiayukuan. But C. is never defended...so I am able to conquer C. and get a few extra bucks...is there anything that could be done about that?
• And the already discussed thing about an independant Krakow, representing the Polish, just to keep that in mind
• An independant Königsberg could also be nice, where the Prussians can spawn. Though, the capital should switch to Berlin, once it is settled.

So far my 2 cents

 

[AOS9001]

[*]Same thing for Barcelona. An independant Barcelona, switching to Spain as Frankfurt does to the HRE.
[*]About Spain: what about an independant city in the South, representing the Moorish? I would think about a (strong garrisoned) city on the plot of Sevilla, named "Qurtuba" (arab. for Cordoba), switching the name after being conquered by the Spanish to "Sevilla". The "Reconquista" is missing entirely by now.
[*]I would suggest to move Marseille back to it's orignial plot. So Barcelona has more space to develop, as it was and is one of the most important cities on the Iberian Peninsula. The Italians still could settle Milano or Pisa.
[/LIST]

I, among others, would have some problems with these. Barcelona, though important in the real world, has weak production, and if I remember correctly, not too many foods either. It's been a week since I played RFC last, though, I can't remember exactly. Also, I'd rather not be forced to have Barcelona when much better cities in the area could be built.

Cordoba would be interesting to have in there, but you need all the cities you can get as Spain for the UHV. That may throw a wrench in the gears for us noob players.

Marseille was moved to give Italy more room, because we had problems with cities earlier. There isn't really that much space for cities in Italy either.

 

[Sandmonster1989]

Barcelona may be a major city, but if it is automatically built, then cities like Zaragoza (which is the kindom of Aragon... a major part of the spanish history) are not likely to be built. And besides, Zaragoza is a MUCH better city anyways.

I'm wondering. What's the likelyhood of getting the ai to found a city in Sardinia/corsica? I know the city wouldn't be powerful, but the AI flat out doesn't found cities there and Roman/italian culture never reaches the plot 1S of the sheep.

Fabe: Unfortunately, in public schools in my home town in the US, they didn't teach enough about Central European history. I barely knew what the HRE was when I graduated from high school, lol (which was several years ago)

 

[AOS9001]

Fabe: Unfortunately, in public schools in my home town in the US, they didn't teach enough about Central European history. I barely knew what the HRE was when I graduated from high school, lol (which was several years ago)

I'll make an irrelevant post here to state that everything I know about European history comes from reading on my own time, they've got only one class with 50 kids in it for European history here, and it's one of the few in the whole state that offer it. I got into history from playing Civilization (and learned even more from the RFC mods). In short, we're doing good work here, people.

By the way, Zaragoza is a much better city than Barcelona, production wise.

 

[fabe]

As I've never played the Spanish, I didn't know that Barcelona is on such a weak plot. So it is good the way it is, I guess.
But I can't agree about the Cordoba/Moorish thing; it shouldn't be such a big deal to conquer Qurtuba, even for beginners (as I'm not considering myself a good player, too). Spain should have some offensive units to be able to conquer Qurtuba/Sevilla. Maybe some Conquistadors, that could later be sent to America. I really do think, that the Reconquista should be included in this mod, because it is so important for Spain.

About Marseille: I always change Marseille with the WB, and I often settle Pisa 1W of the stones. Both cities are doing quite well, imo. Although theres not that much space in Italy to settle cities, you can settle Neapel (city name manager says Benevento to this spot, though...), which is quite a "good" city, especially financially. I also like to settle Palermo to grant me the wines, but i have to admit, this city is a very poor spot on both trade and construction. I haven't tried the plot 1E to it yet, which is probably Messina.
I agree, that something should be done about the southern spot of "Korsidinia", there should be Calgliari. Maybe this could be part of the historical area of both, Spain and Italy, because the kingdom of Sardinia was part of the Spanish rule for quite a long time (1300-1861).
By the way, this kingdom was founded by Holy-roman emperor Friedrich II. of Staufen for his son Enzio.

OT: It's really sad, that European history isn't a bigger part of the US-history education. The majority of the US-citizens have their origin in Europe...
In Germany (as I can speak for German school system only), we use a whole year in school just looking on the French revolution and the rise of the American nation.

 

[Leoreth]

I'd just like to point out that it is against forum rules to speak non-English without an English translation. Could you please have translations?

Yeah, that dialogue went a little out of hand, sorry for that. It wasn't related to the modmod, just discussion about studying history in general, so I'd figured it didn't need a translation. So I'd only post them if you insist on it.

On fabe's suggestions:
I'm generally against preplaced cities, especially in crowded Europe, where it takes away much of the alt-hist potential of seeing different cities developing in every game. Some are needed to keep the borders in check, like Frankfurt, others have proven to be counterproductive. That's the reason why I removed Edinburgh for example - the English AI wouldn't settle cities like Manchester or York anymore. Barcelona is weak, although I've buffed it with additional seafood, and Qurtuba isn't such a great spot as well, so forcing them upon Spain is out of the question. The Moors are like Poland in this case - it hurts to leave them out, but it's impossible to include them without collateral damage.

I really wonder about the Prag tile however. Do you mean 1N of Wien? There it makes sense. West of it, not so much.

 

[fabe]

On fabe's suggestions: ...

I see your point. But I would really appreciate at least having Krakow as an independant citiy
About Qurtuba: I mean the spot, that's named "Sevilla" by the city name manager. In my games, Spain always settles Sevilla, so I don't see the point of getting an alt.-hist. way in this cause. But I agree about the British Island.

I really wonder about the Prag tile however. Do you mean 1N of Wien? There it makes sense. West of it, not so much.

No, I mean the spot, where I settled Nürnberg:

Spoiler :

The city name manager would refer to this spot as "Prag", which is just so wrong Prag should be on the copper, 1N of Wien, you're rigth.
The spot, where I settled Nürnberg, should be Nürnberg, or maybe Leipzig.
(Although the Elbe is quite strangely displayed...)

 

[Ready_set_go]

@Ready_set_go: I (for myself) can't see why one should voluntarily become a vassal state of an AI civ, or how this is supposed to be fun...

Didn't necessarily say fun. I just don't want to fight Spain every single game as Portugal, or Germany/France as Netherlands.

Call it being, well, lazy.

Edit: You can't become a vassal in normal Civ4 BtS, though, can you..?

 

[merijn_v1]

Didn't necessarily say fun. I just don't want to fight Spain every single game as Portugal, or Germany/France as Netherlands.

Call it being, well, lazy.

Edit: You can't become a vassal in normal Civ4 BtS, though, can you..?

Not in the diplomacy. But you can become vassal with the WB.

 

[Ready_set_go]

Then what's the point?

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks for the Screenshot. Nürnberg makes sense for that tile, or maybe Regensburg. Leipzig would be farther north I'd say (and looks weird in the Middle Ages). Prag is either the copper tile or one west of it.

 

[dcode147]

w00t! finally can play civ again. (my copy of the game was left in my apartment in england for the past six months) Glad to see this thread is still lively.

I've always wondered if the civs can be tailored so that the AI behavior better mimics the ideal strategy for that civilizations. Ie: no smart human player would
- play as a completely isolationist Japan
- or as England allow 4 cities to be flipped to Americans upon their spawn
I think the civs need to have quests rewards and additional unique powers to make those stupid-AI actions more worthwhile.

For instance, in the case with Japan, maybe they could also have
- 25% worse espionage against all civs, but +75% espionage against civs Japan has no trade relations with
- or maybe something like +2 happiness per city if Japan has no trade relations with other civs

On fabe's suggestions:
I'm generally against preplaced cities, especially in crowded Europe

Sigh... I'm guessing there haven't been much developments with the usage of autorazed independent cities?


I'm all for more variation per game. And I think AI-civs should have a lot more probabilistic hard-coded actions.
some examples:
- Arab AI-player changes capital from Mecca to Baghdad 75% of time, or to Cairo 25% of time
- Mongol AI-player begins 25% of games with much larger starting army, and in 25% of games declare total war on China
- Turks AI-player in 25% of games declare total war on Arabs
- All AI-controlled civs have a small chance of getting a large research, production and stability boost.
(this will help create diversity in each game by helping make different civs a superpower each time you play. In one game, AI-controlled Turks may be strong enough to control all of central Europe, in another game, Carthage might be strong enough to defeat Rome and take over the Italian peninsula)
- Independent cities could be spawned based on probability as well. Ie: there is 50% chance there will be an independent Warsaw, otherwise there will be an independent Krakow



Not sure if you had found any solution to the Arab-Spanish problem,
Would it be possible to make a new type of terrain on where the Strait of Gibraltar is? For every civ except the Arabs, that tile would function as a regular coast tile. For the Arabs however, their land units would have the ability to walk across it. To prevent Arabs from hiding units on that terrain, maybe Arabs land units on that tile would lose 25% of their original strength each turn. Maybe this is too hard to implement…

 

[Sir Tornado]

I have a question about the whole Prussia -> Germany/HRE -> Austria thing. Germany (and most of the territory usually reflected in HRE during reformation) is protestant, Austria on the other hand is catholic. So, how are you going to handle that?

Right now, Spain/Portugal/Italy/France stay Catholic, England/Netherlands/Vikings and HRE undergo reformation so it's more or less balanced out. If you have HRE stay Catholic, it will mean Protestantlism will have almost no presence on European mainland except in Amsterdam, and it will also be historically inaccurate (that's where reformation actually began).

OTOH, if you have HRE reform, what does Austria do when HRE devolves into Austria? Will you script in a counter-reformation like the one happened in history?

 

[civ-addicted]

Ninjapost!

I have a question about the whole Prussia -> Germany/HRE -> Austria thing. Germany (and most of the territory usually reflected in HRE during reformation) is protestant, Austria on the other hand is catholic. So, how are you going to handle that?

ähem...

Spoiler :

green is catholic...

And nowadays think of nonreligious in most of the orange areas.

Prussia is protestant, Germany is neither.
Frankfurt is normally quite big and recieves protestantism even if the HRE stay catholic. I don't see quite a problem with that.

 

[The Turk]

I have a question about the whole Prussia -> Germany/HRE -> Austria thing. Germany (and most of the territory usually reflected in HRE during reformation) is protestant, Austria on the other hand is catholic. So, how are you going to handle that?

Right now, Spain/Portugal/Italy/France stay Catholic, England/Netherlands/Vikings and HRE undergo reformation so it's more or less balanced out. If you have HRE stay Catholic, it will mean Protestantlism will have almost no presence on European mainland except in Amsterdam, and it will also be historically inaccurate (that's where reformation actually began).

OTOH, if you have HRE reform, what does Austria do when HRE devolves into Austria? Will you script in a counter-reformation like the one happened in history?

Ya this brings up a good point, I would therefore recommend having the HRE remain Catholic, but have Protestantism flow rapidly through

Oh and also thats a good idea, can you have a script so that Catholicism re-enters a few cities during the 16th century, I think that would be a good idea. But the HRE should remain Catholic until Prussia arrives (which SHOULD be nominally Protestant).

Also ever thought about recreating Charles V Europe? I would recommend having the HRE and Spain have very close relations, that would be quite interesting. Because currently when they fight each other, its kinda weird.