Yeah I know (didn't know the exact numbers though), which is why I will chose the term "military strength" instead of "army" etc. The military advancements or buildings that are of military use are a part of the military in the braod definition of the term.
Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
- Status
ramz711
Chieftain
Hey, I'm looking to download this and jump into the discussion, but I'm having a bit of an issue. Is the download supposed to be a standard RAR file, or is it supposed to be a zipped file? I'm getting the former.
Thanks in advance, and I don't mean to derail the discussion.
Thanks in advance, and I don't mean to derail the discussion.
Welcome 
Maybe I have to clarify something else first because there are two different versions of the mod floating around:
There's 1.73, the "official" version, which you can download at the CFC download database. You're right that it comes as a RAR file, but I don't understand what the problem with that is? Simply unpack it like a zip archive.
The there's also 1.8, which is currently worked on, and which most people are talking about here. You can find an explanation of how to get that in the first post of this thread.
Maybe I have to clarify something else first because there are two different versions of the mod floating around:There's 1.73, the "official" version, which you can download at the CFC download database. You're right that it comes as a RAR file, but I don't understand what the problem with that is? Simply unpack it like a zip archive.
The there's also 1.8, which is currently worked on, and which most people are talking about here. You can find an explanation of how to get that in the first post of this thread.
Do you have somewhere in mind? I already suggested turning every river tile in Lower Egypt into flood plain and putting the cotton into a desert tile not surrounded by a river is extremely inaccurate.
I would like to point out that the previous location was also on the Caspian; actually my location is more accurate considering that Tabriz in found east of the Caspian not south of it. Also, Tabriz was by far more important than Ray in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, i can prove it just by showing you the sheer number of people that live there or the fact that it was the capital of multiple dynasties. But what I suggest is a compromise; the city can be renamed to Tehran at the start of the Industrial Era (1800 ad).
The Seljuks do; this will make more sense once you import SOIs flag change, name change, banner change system and implement historical dynasty names.
So u agree with 1000 ad for the barbs.
Just for reassurance
, Will you be making the Egyptians into a proper respawn like the Italians sometime in the future? Imo, they do but thats not my main argument. The fact of the matter is that when the Egyptians will spawn Arab cities in Libya will look messy and it is fairly accurate to say that Arabia in real life would never have been able to control these territories. Also I suggest that you flip independents in North Africa to the Egyptians is because it will spread Islam to cities left out by the Arabs and prevent ahistorical conquests of the region by Europeans, Mali or the Mongols. I dont see any reason not to flip them; its not as if it will make the Egyptians overpowered; those cities are not that useful in the first place anyways. Also the reason, I suggested that you add an independent Tunis for now is that so the Egyptians can settle the regions without their settler map or city name map being have to changed (for now). Adding Tunis is temporary until version 1.9 and will only take 2 minutes (i can do it for u if u want).
The second reason is rather superflous. You can leave the current color as it is fairly accurate of some Iranian dynasties such as the Qajars. Also you can always make the Safavid color lighter green. There is no argument here, change it to whatever is convenient!; so you have a choice of leaving it as it is, or changing it to any shade of Green, Red or Lighter Browns. This map is what i would i would suggest but it really doesnt matter as long as the Safavids are in:
.About Shia Islam, I already posted an alternate UHV with Nader Shah's conquests of Northern India, Anatolia, Iraq, Pakistan, Oman and Central Asia. This will be challanging cosidering that the Mughals are pretty strong, so are the Ottomans and now there will be a real civ in central Asia (Timurids).
But in the long run, I would like to see Shia Islam added to the game when Orthodoxy is added.
1) The point of this Uhv is not to encourage the player to conquer/ turn into a decent city. The point is to do it fast enough while pumping out enough military to aid your conquest. Notice that the time period will be extremely short; in this time period you have to research the appropriate techs to build the Blue Mosque and Topkapi Palace, build the Palace and have 4 Islamic shrines while at the same time waging war on two fronts to meet the second UHV.
2) Because that is not very original first of all, secondly these types of goals are applicable for large-large empires namely the British, Mongols, Persians (although not that large compared to modern times, it was the largest empire to date and as u know it is harder to conquer that much territory in Ancient times, Spanish and the Arabs. Why does it matter that it is overwrote, the fact of the matter is that the last was overwrote as well (considering that it specified territories as well). this goal is extremely challenging requiring you to declare war on multiple factions (4-6 in total) around the same time with large militaries (especially Vienna, Baghdad and Cairo). This goal is fun, if u dont beleive me try it urself. Also with your goals, I can easily acheive the goal if was historical because Ottoman empire at their hieght controlled 5 million km2 which is as much as the Seljuks or the Mughals and accounts for 3% of world territory. The reason Ottoman conquests are in the history books is not for the sheer amount of territory they conquered but for the territory they conquered; like conquering the remains of the once great Byzantine Empire, controlling all the fertile regions of the Middle Eastern desert and almost bringing Europe to its heals. Btw if your goal is supposed to be more than historical (like conquering 15%) then why wouldnt I just try to get the new world conquerers event instead of wasting my time with costly and deadly wars in Europe and the Middle East.
3) No it doesn't; I have played the Ottomans like 5 times in the past week; the hardest part is not having the largest military which is a given when you are spewing Jannissaries here and there to aid ur conquest. The hardest part is to surpass the Mughals and the Chinese in the scoreboards. That requires you to carefully balance between expanding, researching and building to reach the top. There is also a diplomatic aspect as u often need to be on good terms with some European powers to trade techs that put u over the top in that race.
Thats rather superflous considering that some of the greatest Cathedrals, Mosques and Shrines in the world are named after Saints, Kings and such. Id reccommend that you dont set these preconditions because i can guarantee that almost 60% of building in the M.Eeast and 90% of Cathedrals in Europe are named after a person or dynasty. Also why are u penalyzing the middle east with this rule when Europe already has buch of buildings like that.
That was an oxymoron because a religous building is only important by its religous significance. The two buildings did not serve any purpose other than worship so I dont know in what sense is it more important. Im guessing what you meant was that architecture is better but still does not give it any right over the Mosque of Damascus. Also ur views on architecture are your opinions, the fact of the matter is that the Ummayad Mosque is quite impressive also and in my opinion more so than the Mezquita. Also I dont understand how a building that is supposed to be helping Islamic Civs if build in its right location would help Islamic Civs? For the Pleasure others I have included several pictures of both mosques:
Great Mosque of Cordoba:
Great Mosque of Damascus:
Imo, The Mosque of Damascus has a more Elegant feel to it; something more pristine rather than bulky and overdid like the Mosque of Cordoba. Dont get me wrong the mosque of Cordoba is a magnificent peice of Architecture but imo has been blown way over proportion simply because it happens to be in Europe and is rather "exotic". Even if you dont share my view, the fact is that Umayyad Mosque is still magnificent in architecture and the fact that it is the fourth holiest site in Islam puts it on top of MOC in importance and status.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I studied (Western) Art History last semester and I have to say, j.pride,
you're not doing the Great Mosque of Cordoba justice by displaying the exterior.
The interior of the Mosque highlights the pinnacle of Arabian aesthetics & knowledge of symmetry &
mathematics with its recurring motif of repeating rectangles inside the building.
But I digress.
Anyways, I just wanted to weigh in on your third point.
By the Industrial Age, if you're not a Western Euro civ, there's almost no point in researching your own techs when you can just steal them.
you're not doing the Great Mosque of Cordoba justice by displaying the exterior.
The interior of the Mosque highlights the pinnacle of Arabian aesthetics & knowledge of symmetry &
mathematics with its recurring motif of repeating rectangles inside the building.
But I digress.
Anyways, I just wanted to weigh in on your third point.
By the Industrial Age, if you're not a Western Euro civ, there's almost no point in researching your own techs when you can just steal them.
Sorry, I accidentally put the interior under the Mosque of Damascus, it is fine now so yeah i did take one pic of interior; if u can find better ones than please do put them. And i would kindly disagree, the Dome of the Rock is the pinnacle of Arab aeththetics, symmetry and geometry in architecture; it is also the one of the best of Arab Calligraphy.
It's not about accuracy, but about maximizing the amount of usable tiles. Cotton on flood plains wastes one cottage spot, while you can build the plantation on desert as well.
Not worth the effort. Also, quite a lot timeline conflicts. The Seljuk will appear with the Seljuk conquests, if they hold some extra cities I won't go out of my way to justify it by shoehorning the Khwarezmids in.
I don't know. I don't even know how these mechanics will look like in the future.Just for reassurance
Well, you can of course have your opinion, but fact is that the Egyptians can respawn at any point from 900 to 1300.
You said I can completely copy the Synthesis Safavids which is obviously not true.
Unlikely.
Who cares? Railroading the players' game is a much worse situation from a game design perspective
Um, no? Most wonders are wonders not because of their utility, but because of their beauty or impressiveness that goes beyond utility (no matter if it actually has utility or not). All kinds of buildings can be judged universally by their architectural significance, without religion even entering into it. You make it sound as if a religious wonder automatically needs to have a religious effect.
Well, I guess we can't persuade each other on that one. Fortunately it's only my opinion that counts
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I'm still a little rusty on my Western Art History & Advanced European History but I'll try and be as helpful as I can come time for Europe.
By the way, you mentioned civ colors, Leoreth.
What colors aren't included so far?
By the way, you mentioned civ colors, Leoreth.
What colors aren't included so far?
Sure, Im not big on cottages but thats fine with me.
Ok,
I was simply pointing out that I equate Fatimids to Egypt (not taking the gameplay into account). Besides, this was not the point I was addressing, as stated I said this is my opinion and didn't state the Fatimids as the reason for my point on Egyptians flipping North African cities. You have't adderresed the real issue here?
I wouldn't have minded if you copied the Safavids from Synthesis exactly (except for the 2nd Uhv which i addressed earlier). I was merely providing options for the problem you raised. I personally dont find color to be much of an issue but others do. My questions remains, will u be adding the Safavids?
I provided a few other arguments too
. There are plenty of examples of this "railroading"; werent the Ottomans "railroaded" before too, i just expanded on their UHV. I still believe that this UHV would be great for the Ottomans. If not this, what do u propose to be the new Ottoman UHVS?I was strictly talking about importance; importance and architectural beauty are two different things. You still did'nt tell me how the Mosque of Cordoba is more important than the Umayyad Mosque. You provided some evidence that it was more architecturally magnificent but never evidence that it was more important? For example Notre Dame might be more beautiful than the Apostolic Palace but it is definitely not more important. (just an example not necessarily my opinion)
That would be a shame since I thought that Shiite Islam would occupy a similar position as Zoroastarianism, Toaism and Orthodoxy. I fail to see how the other religions added (will be added) are more important in terms of gameplay than Shiite Islam. Shiite Islam plays a similar role in Islamic Persia to what Toaism and Zoroastarianism play in China and Old Persia. And then there is also the fact that Christianity (will be) is split into three branches and it will be great if some diversity was also introduced in the Middle East with Islam. Much like the reason for adding Protestantism to fuel war, Shia Iran and Sunni Ottomans and Mughals could play a similar role in the Middle East. Shia Islam could also spread some unhappiness as the minority religion in the Sunni states and also add some new wonders, buildings and cultural diversity. I was of the opinion that Synthesis handled Shiite Islam very well and that importing it here would be fruitful as I dont see any unwanted consequences.
We can have both if there are graphics in a dark color for a mosque.
Caesar Augustus
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Messages
- 385
While it would be nice to see new wonders for the Mughals and Ottomans, I'm beginning to think there might be simply TOO MANY wonders. To me, it's becoming obvious that adding wonders that are as useful as those from vanilla is getting more and more difficult. I mean, I find Borobudur and Khajuraho to be of rather limited utility and it's hard to imagine a huge batch of new wonders being all that much better. This is not to impugn the creativity of Leoreth or anyone else involved in the mod, just to note that as we add more Wonders there are few and fewer niches left to fill.
That said, adding a few well-chosen wonders from this era of Islam (and I agree with Leoreth that the Blue Mosque and the Red Fort are probably the best, though I imagine that there's probably room for an Umayyad Mosque as well) strikes me as a good idea, and I feel that there should be at least a few modern wonders added as well. I'd especially like to see the Guggenheim, NORAD, and some major skyskraper (anything from the Empire State building all the way through the Burj Khalifa would be fine by me) added, but that's just me.
Which leads me to the point that maybe it's time to start removing a few ancient wonders. IMO, there are just too many Pantheon enabled wonders. Getting rid of a few could also help to ensure that all or most of them get built by western societies, so the human can't just snag a bunch of easy wonders by going Pantheon as Maya, Korea, etc. I haven't necessarily thought through it in too terribly much detail, but I think the game wouldn't be terribly harmed if some or all of the following wonders were dropped, though it would force some changes in Greek, Persian, and possibly Babylonian UHVs.
The Temple of Artemis: While the ToA was an important Greek temple, I think that it's too similar to the Parthenon for both of them to fit well in the game. Given that the Parthenon is more well-known today and is actually located in a city likely to be built in-game, I'd vote for the Parthenon over the ToA. I think, though, that the ToA's effect might be better for the Parthenon than its current effect. Having the Parthenon boost what Athens is historically known for (trade and GPs) would, I think, be very beneficial.
The Mausoleum of Mausallos: Another Hellenic structure built outside Greece, the MoM is doubtless a very important structure historically and architecturally. I'm just not sure how it fits in the game. It's in an awkward place, technologically, and though many wonders have effects not particularly related to their use or structure, this one is pretty hard for me to grasp. Plus, even though it was built by cultural Greeks in a Greek style, it was built by a Persian satrap, and unless I'm mistaken the Persians don't tend to go Pantheon (every time I run into them they have Zoroastrianism as a state religion). I do think the effect is pretty cool, but I think it fits better on the Statue of Zeus. In fact, even if you do keep the Mausoleum, I think it might work better as a more clearly Persian wonder (perhaps requiring Zoroastrianism instead of Pantheon?) with something approximating the SoZ's effect. Perhaps it could just give +1 culture to all cities instead of a free Pagan Temple. I dunno, something that gives the Persians more culture would definitely help with the % of world territory goal.
Hanging Gardens: Admittedly a cool wonder, its effects are kind of wasted on Babylon because of how small it is and could be somewhat OP for the larger empires like Rome and Persia. It's also a pretty sizable boost for Arabia if it ends up somewhere in their flip zone. Most of the Med civs are more limited by happiness than health anyway.
The Colossus: Another really cool concept that to me loses some worth because of its location and, most notably, its short lifespan. Most of these other wonders lasted for hundreds of years in some form or another, but the Colossus was toppled after only 56. I think its effect is better suited to the Great Cothon anyway. I'd rather see the current effect of the Great Cothon either moved to a new wonder or perhaps made into the Phoenician/Carthaginian UP.
The Oracle: Ok, ok, this one is probably the most controversial, but can you think of a wonder that is more exploitable than The Oracle? One that is a part of more UHV or other types of victory planning? One that gets built more regularly by the wrong civ? I didn't think so. Whenever I play a Med civ (except maybe the Phoenicians), the very first thing I do is see if anyone has built the Oracle. If not, it becomes priority number one. It's just so darn useful, especially since it can often be used for Theology, Machinery, or something similarly expensive. Putting an effect like this later in the game would, I think, be useful but less disruptive. Having a medieval Islamic wonder with this effect would also help the Arabs establish a tech lead but probably wouldn't in the long-term help them keep it, which to me seems to help things along historically. In fact, I have much more problem with the effect of the Oracle than with its existence of a wonder, and if someone could think of a more appropriate use for the Oracle (maybe give Pagan Shrines a Scientist slot?) I'd definitely be behind it
Obviously, if any of these changes were implemented, it would hit hardest at the Greeks. But to be fair it still leaves 2 structures built in mainland Greece (Parthenon and Statue of Zeus), plus possibly a redesigned Oracle, and 2 Hellenistic structures (Great Lighthouse and Great Library), which is still a pretty darn good haul for any particular civ. Heck, it might end up being a blessing in disguise for the Greeks, who could spend less time spamming wonders and more time building a decent army. As far as the Persians, it does drastically reduce the number of wonders available for conquest.
That said, adding a few well-chosen wonders from this era of Islam (and I agree with Leoreth that the Blue Mosque and the Red Fort are probably the best, though I imagine that there's probably room for an Umayyad Mosque as well) strikes me as a good idea, and I feel that there should be at least a few modern wonders added as well. I'd especially like to see the Guggenheim, NORAD, and some major skyskraper (anything from the Empire State building all the way through the Burj Khalifa would be fine by me) added, but that's just me.
Which leads me to the point that maybe it's time to start removing a few ancient wonders. IMO, there are just too many Pantheon enabled wonders. Getting rid of a few could also help to ensure that all or most of them get built by western societies, so the human can't just snag a bunch of easy wonders by going Pantheon as Maya, Korea, etc. I haven't necessarily thought through it in too terribly much detail, but I think the game wouldn't be terribly harmed if some or all of the following wonders were dropped, though it would force some changes in Greek, Persian, and possibly Babylonian UHVs.
The Temple of Artemis: While the ToA was an important Greek temple, I think that it's too similar to the Parthenon for both of them to fit well in the game. Given that the Parthenon is more well-known today and is actually located in a city likely to be built in-game, I'd vote for the Parthenon over the ToA. I think, though, that the ToA's effect might be better for the Parthenon than its current effect. Having the Parthenon boost what Athens is historically known for (trade and GPs) would, I think, be very beneficial.
The Mausoleum of Mausallos: Another Hellenic structure built outside Greece, the MoM is doubtless a very important structure historically and architecturally. I'm just not sure how it fits in the game. It's in an awkward place, technologically, and though many wonders have effects not particularly related to their use or structure, this one is pretty hard for me to grasp. Plus, even though it was built by cultural Greeks in a Greek style, it was built by a Persian satrap, and unless I'm mistaken the Persians don't tend to go Pantheon (every time I run into them they have Zoroastrianism as a state religion). I do think the effect is pretty cool, but I think it fits better on the Statue of Zeus. In fact, even if you do keep the Mausoleum, I think it might work better as a more clearly Persian wonder (perhaps requiring Zoroastrianism instead of Pantheon?) with something approximating the SoZ's effect. Perhaps it could just give +1 culture to all cities instead of a free Pagan Temple. I dunno, something that gives the Persians more culture would definitely help with the % of world territory goal.
Hanging Gardens: Admittedly a cool wonder, its effects are kind of wasted on Babylon because of how small it is and could be somewhat OP for the larger empires like Rome and Persia. It's also a pretty sizable boost for Arabia if it ends up somewhere in their flip zone. Most of the Med civs are more limited by happiness than health anyway.
The Colossus: Another really cool concept that to me loses some worth because of its location and, most notably, its short lifespan. Most of these other wonders lasted for hundreds of years in some form or another, but the Colossus was toppled after only 56. I think its effect is better suited to the Great Cothon anyway. I'd rather see the current effect of the Great Cothon either moved to a new wonder or perhaps made into the Phoenician/Carthaginian UP.
The Oracle: Ok, ok, this one is probably the most controversial, but can you think of a wonder that is more exploitable than The Oracle? One that is a part of more UHV or other types of victory planning? One that gets built more regularly by the wrong civ? I didn't think so. Whenever I play a Med civ (except maybe the Phoenicians), the very first thing I do is see if anyone has built the Oracle. If not, it becomes priority number one. It's just so darn useful, especially since it can often be used for Theology, Machinery, or something similarly expensive. Putting an effect like this later in the game would, I think, be useful but less disruptive. Having a medieval Islamic wonder with this effect would also help the Arabs establish a tech lead but probably wouldn't in the long-term help them keep it, which to me seems to help things along historically. In fact, I have much more problem with the effect of the Oracle than with its existence of a wonder, and if someone could think of a more appropriate use for the Oracle (maybe give Pagan Shrines a Scientist slot?) I'd definitely be behind it
Obviously, if any of these changes were implemented, it would hit hardest at the Greeks. But to be fair it still leaves 2 structures built in mainland Greece (Parthenon and Statue of Zeus), plus possibly a redesigned Oracle, and 2 Hellenistic structures (Great Lighthouse and Great Library), which is still a pretty darn good haul for any particular civ. Heck, it might end up being a blessing in disguise for the Greeks, who could spend less time spamming wonders and more time building a decent army. As far as the Persians, it does drastically reduce the number of wonders available for conquest.
Qiu
Warlord
Actually depriving Rome of an easy cop-out of the barbarian problem was part of the goal
Two recent observations:
1) Xinjiang, Mongolia, Tibet, Yunnan and Southern Manchuria are all historical for China, and I don't think they should be.
I think southern Manchuria should be historical for China. The population there were always Han people since at least BC 400, whether under a foreign rule or not. One could say Tibet is not historical for China, because the inhabitants owns a different tradition and culture but the south Manchuria doesn't. And please see the historical shape of the Great Wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_wall the Ming is wrong), southern Manchuria was always included in its boundary. That's a convincing proof, in my opinion.
For Xinjiang, the silk road cities were always be the main expansion target for the ancient Chinese dynasties, in order to control the important silk road trade. They did control this region (named Werstern Religons or Xiyu) from time to time, and one of the most famous Chinese poet was born in China-controlled central Asia. In fact the Turko-Muslim culture didn't dominate this region until the early Qing dynasty. (In fact, the Iranian and Han people inhabitant the silk road cities much earlier than them).
Maybe you try to nerf the stability to avoid a overpowered China, but as far as I know, in history the reason China became unstable were seldom from expansion, but from unrest peasant revolts or rebellion in heartland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions). In my opinion nerfing stability from economy or increase the inflation or other ways would solve better.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Tibet is definitely historical for China, there's no doubt about that.
They're just not very Sinicized, is what I'm getting at.
The whole proposal of mine was basically to reduce stability in Xinjiang & Tibet but increase stability in Manchuria, Vietnam & Corea.
I'll do a stability map in Photoshop as soon as I have time to show you kind of what I'm talking about. I like the idea of peasant uprisings too but in practice, it feels kind of bad singling out China to get them when peasant uprisings were common in almost every other part of the world as well. I don't agree about nerfing economy but I have a barbarian proposal for nerfing them.
Since you prevented Rome from building the Great Wall so that they wouldn't have an easy cop-out from barbarians, changing the Great Wall's effect for basically quicker troop movement like some users have suggested or something and spawning a like number of barbarians to pressure China will weaken it like how many players want it. Have "Xiongnu" Horse Archer barbarians come in threes or fours from the western Gobi Desert region and spawn "wokou" pirate fleets (Galley+Caravels) that drop off Spears and Axes from the south & east. The combined pressure should impose an effect similar to what happens to Rome every game.
On a personal note however, in both this and vanilla RFC, I seldom see China still alive and intact like many people seem to have seen. Like Arabia and Rome, they're typically collapsed. Those three civs + India are usually the ones that are always dead in pretty much all of my games without interference from what I've observed although that's probably because I still continue to play after winning UHVs. As for China taking over collapsed Mongolia, that's just what the AI does. They will almost always scavenge fallen parts of collapsed empires and hurt their own stability in turn. And they will go out of their way to do it. I recall I posted a screenshot of Mughal Mongolia before and in one of my earlier games, the Ottomans went out of their way to occupy a collapsed Spain.
I think a big problem with the Mongols right now in relation to China is also that the conquerors events usually lead to them successfully taking parts of Central Asia and Russia but the Maintenance must be killing them. I think the Mongols should get reduced Maintenance costs or a buffed Economy rating (to represent the historical Mongol encouragement of trade) to help them out.
I think if we improved Mongolia in relation to China,
that could help fix a bunch of things.
I apologize for the wall of text and look forward to hearing thoughts about my post.
great.taurus
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2010
- Messages
- 149
Leoreth, what speed are you aiming to balance the game around? Marathon, Epic, Regular, or all three in equality?
Regular
You suggest getting rid of 4 of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World, which is totally ridiculous. That's why we call all the wonders in Civilization "wonders". On the other hand, I'm totally fine with getting rid of the Oracle, rather than changing its power.
Caesar Augustus
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Messages
- 385
I do suggest that, yes. While the concept of Wonders does owe a great debt to the original lists of Wonders (and let's not forget that several lists included other Wonders like the Ishtar Gate and Walls of Babylon), I think the game's definition (structures of great and lasting historical, architectural, and/or social value which can be represented by some sort of boost to a civ's power) and the original list writers' (structures that are neat-looking and happen to be within traveling range of Greece) are sufficiently different that not every one of the Seven Ancient Wonders deserves to be represented in-game. This is, I think, especially true of the Colossus, as most of the list-writers only saw the debris. Would a giant, collapsed statue have been worth a visit? Sure. Worthy of any sort of in-game benefit? I doubt it.
From the colors used in BtS I think only dark pink (China), middle purple (Babylonia), middle green (Ethiopia) and gray (Germany). Since the latter will return in any case, that leaves us three of the classical colors. Not that it's not possible to create your own at any point.I'm still a little rusty on my Western Art History & Advanced European History but I'll try and be as helpful as I can come time for Europe.
By the way, you mentioned civ colors, Leoreth.
What colors aren't included so far?
Currently I've only taken out Xinjiang and Tibet, and won't go further than that. My point is not that China should immediately collapse when they hold these areas, but that they should be unstable enough that other problems (like economic ones as you mentioned) will suffice in this case to push them into collapsing. I think China gets an exemption for their economic growth in the stability code because they are so long lived, maybe I remove that as well.
My point is not pre-Mongol invasion China, which is usually fine. It's the China that survives them or respawns later, and easily takes over all of Mongolia's territory and remains stable. They even had historical area around Samarkand which they only held for a limited period of time and lost precisely because it wasn't sustainable.
It's not completely true that the AI will always do this. The AI only declares war on independents that occupy territory that's stable to them. Removing large parts of the former Mongol empire from their stable area reduces their incentive for war.
Yes. I don't think the Mongols are treated very accurately in their ability to sustain a large empire currently.
I play and test only on normal (mainly because that already takes enough time), and afaik it's the speed most people play on, so I'm balancing that primarily. If there's something grievously off in the other speeds, I'll of course try to remedy it, but otherwise I just assume that what works on normal will do on epic and marathon as well.
Yeah, I second that. The seven wonders of the ancient world are likely the reason why civ even includes the concept of wonders, and I wouldn't want to get rid of it. I agree with some of your arguments that certain wonders are not that useful, or not useful enough for the civ that's supposed to build it, which can be remedied.
Actually I wouldn't mind if not all of them are actually built, as long as they're all buildable. I only have to impose some rule that makes them unbuildable earlier so the Maya or Aztecs can't steal them.
Qiu
Warlord
Agreed. China is essentially an agricultural civilization. It is hard for them to administrate vast nomadic areas such as Mongolia before the industrial age. And for Tibet, in fact the Chinese government never successfully built a direct administration there, because of the scary altitude sickness.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Actually I agree with the previous suggestions
The Oracle is a too big weapon in the hands of the human player
It's the key strategy to various abuses
I would restrict it's effect: You get a free ancient or classical technology
Maybe not even all classical techs are choosable, just the earlier ones.
(I was always against the Oracle's slingshots though, so I totally understand if not everyone share my opinion)
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