Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Manchus are a good idea, with the exception of one thing.

If China proper ever respawns and the Manchus collapse, I think China should be able to receive Manchu cities just like how India receives Mughal cities (except for Lahore?) for the most part. Considering how quickly the Manchus integrated and wove themselves into Chinese culture and seemingly didn't look back (native Manchu speakers number under 50,000), that is in my opinion a bit more reasonable.

You know, I was thinking about Manchuria a couple days ago too and I thought about just how much China needed an overhaul in their stability map (I remember the old stability map complaints in one of the vanilla RFC threads and specifically the China complaints, see thread here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313398&page=2 [After parsing through that thread again, I noticed quite a few of the DoC testers (civ king? dragodon64?) have posted there and expressed opinions as well, if not just for China (Rome, America & Russia to be very specific). Do any of you still think the same about the current stability map?] I agreed with a lot of the sentiments; I think instead of being Green/Light Green, Xinjiang and Tibet should be probably Yellow/Orange for China. Manchuria, Corea and Vietnam ought to be Light Green/Yellow in turn representing those areas complete (Manchuria) or partial (Vietnam, Corea) Sinification and periods of Chinese control.

It's a sensitive issue but I think we can lower stability in the Xinjiang/Tibet regions because of unrest and other issues (independence movements/non-Sinicized culture, etc.) and in turn give some better stability for China in the following places:

Vietnam: Han, Tang, Ming Dynasty occupations
Corea: Han, Three Kingdoms Period, (Lelang Commandery)
Manchu: Jin & Qing period (self-Sinification for the most part)

 

[J. pride]

Instead of giving the Manchus their own civilization I would much rather have them merged with China somehow; much like how Italy is currently with Rome. They can spawn after the Mongol conquests.

 

[River guard]

Manchus are a good idea, with the exception of one thing.

If China proper ever respawns and the Manchus collapse, I think China should be able to receive Manchu cities just like how India receives Mughal cities (except for Lahore?) for the most part. Considering how quickly the Manchus integrated and wove themselves into Chinese culture and seemingly didn't look back (native Manchu speakers number under 50,000), that is in my opinion a bit more reasonable.

You know, I was thinking about Manchuria a couple days ago too and I thought about just how much China needed an overhaul in their stability map (I remember the old stability map complaints in one of the vanilla RFC threads and specifically the China complaints.) I agreed with a lot of the sentiments; I think instead of being Green/Light Green, Xinjiang and Tibet should be probably Yellow/Orange for China. Manchuria, Corea and Vietnam ought to be Light Green/Yellow in turn representing those areas complete (Manchuria) or partial (Vietnam, Corea) Sinification and periods of Chinese control.

It's a sensitive issue but I think we can lower stability in the Xinjiang/Tibet regions because of unrest and other issues (independence movements/non-Sinicized culture, etc.) and in turn give some better stability for China in the following places:

Vietnam: Han, Tang, Ming Dynasty occupations
Corea: Han, Three Kingdoms Period, (Lelang Commandery)
Manchu: Jin & Qing period (self-Sinification for the most part)

Something about Manchu;

From what I know there are currently about 10 Mio ethnic Manchurians today in China which would by far make up the vast majority of manchurians within the world population, however only around 60 of them are actually native Manchu speaker. A few months ago there was a national research programm about manchurian language and only some very old manchu people from remote villages or language researchers (who ironically were mostly han chinese) were still familiar with manchu language.
What you meant with 50,000 native Manchu speakers is probably Xibo/锡伯 dialects numbering around 40,000 speakers, Tungusic peoples from northeastern china from which manchurians are also part of, but there are distinction with native Manchu language and they are not the same for the chinese. In any case manchurians began their sinification process long before the founding of Qing dynasty, one can argue that it was one of the preperations for them for the purpose of take and rule over china.

Right now new manchu language schools (partly government funded) are opening up to save the manchu language, but the effects remains to be seen as many of students(which are very few) are taken it as a short term hobby.

 

[Qiu]

Right now new manchu language schools (partly government funded) are opening up to save the manchu language, but the effects remains to be seen as many of students(which are very few) are taken it as a short term hobby.

In fact, my former roommate is Manchu ethic. He tried to learn Manchuria (the course is totally free), but finally he gave up because it cannot help him to read much meaningful literature or find a better job.

 

[Leoreth]

Manchus are a good idea, with the exception of one thing.

If China proper ever respawns and the Manchus collapse, I think China should be able to receive Manchu cities just like how India receives Mughal cities (except for Lahore?) for the most part. Considering how quickly the Manchus integrated and wove themselves into Chinese culture and seemingly didn't look back (native Manchu speakers number under 50,000), that is in my opinion a bit more reasonable.

You know, I was thinking about Manchuria a couple days ago too and I thought about just how much China needed an overhaul in their stability map (I remember the old stability map complaints in one of the vanilla RFC threads and specifically the China complaints, see thread here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313398&page=2 [After parsing through that thread again, I noticed quite a few of the DoC testers (civ king? dragodon64?) have posted there and expressed opinions as well, if not just for China (Rome, America & Russia to be very specific). Do any of you still think the same about the current stability map?] I agreed with a lot of the sentiments; I think instead of being Green/Light Green, Xinjiang and Tibet should be probably Yellow/Orange for China. Manchuria, Corea and Vietnam ought to be Light Green/Yellow in turn representing those areas complete (Manchuria) or partial (Vietnam, Corea) Sinification and periods of Chinese control.

It's a sensitive issue but I think we can lower stability in the Xinjiang/Tibet regions because of unrest and other issues (independence movements/non-Sinicized culture, etc.) and in turn give some better stability for China in the following places:

Vietnam: Han, Tang, Ming Dynasty occupations
Corea: Han, Three Kingdoms Period, (Lelang Commandery)
Manchu: Jin & Qing period (self-Sinification for the most part)

In principle I agree with this: China is too stable when controlling only its usual area, while they should be rather fragile at this point, with any other problem putting them at risk of collapse. Occurences like them taking over all of Mongolia proper after a respawn shouldn't happen in my opinion.

Instead of giving the Manchus their own civilization I would much rather have them merged with China somehow; much like how Italy is currently with Rome. They can spawn after the Mongol conquests.

The main purpose of a Machu civ would be to work as adversary of China ... so what would be gained if it was only a different version of China?

 

[Qiu]

The main purpose of a Machu civ would be to work as adversary of China ... so what would be gained if it was only a different version of China?

yes, a militaristically and economically powerful but technology delayed China, which opposite the current UP of China. The Manchu rulers heavily depressed the scholarship and the freedom of thought, for the sake of its oligarch.

That's why I think the current Chinese civ cannot present the post Mongolian invasion China.

 

[Qiu]

The Manchu rulers even set knelt epitaphs in every Taixue. That says "1. not to discuss politics 2. not to form any parites 3. not to publish any articles". These are just the freedom of speech, the freedom of association, and the freedom of the press. So I don't think the Chinese UP and UB could work anymore, or be the first one to discover liberalism as many guys in this forum complained

 

[J. pride]

The main purpose of a Machu civ would be to work as adversary of China ... so what would be gained if it was only a different version of China?

I don't understand what purpose that would serve; for example:

-One of the purpose stated was that it would help the Mongol conquest but after you edited the Mongols in the latest svn they dont need help. And I don't understand what the early Manchu dynasties would accomplish that a better barbarian stacks/ cities cannot do now.

-Secondly if a Manchu dynasty is put in; it is almost certain that it will not be playable because of the large time frame and territorial difference of each dynasty.

-There is only one Manchu dynasty worth putting in and that is the Qing Dynasty; what im saying is that the Qing are better represented as a Chinese respawn.

Here is my two point plan to represent the various Manchu Dyansties:

-What my suggestion is that if you guys want to represent the early Manchus (Jin and Liao Dynasties) simply spawn a better barbarian stack which is directed to move southwards. Along with this 2-3 historical Manchu cities can also be put in. (The next part is highly optional) Aside from that, you can also give the barbarian that spawn there a special UU (like the Mongols and Seljuks in RFCE) and different flags and banners like what Jarkov did with his independents.

-To represent the Qing dynasty; i reccomend that you have the Chinese respawn in 1380; now you might say that is inaccurate. But my logic to this is that you should model the Qing after the Mughals. All the UU, UB, UHVs (well 2 of them) can be of the Qing dynasty but their spawn can be of Ming date simply because of gameplay reasons. Some might say that Qing=/=Ming but the fact of the matter is that after the conquests the Qing dynasty adopted everything Chinese even to the language. From a global prespective both of them were Chinese and we have many examples in the mod itself of civ that include multiple ethnicities with a similar culture (namely Russia, England (Norman Conquest can be seen very similar to the Qing one), Arabia, Spain etc)

Final Product can look something like this:

-Flag, color, UU, UB can be Qing.

-The UHV can be divided up with the Ming getting one UHV and the other being of Qing; my own proposal (after seeing some other suggestions) would be:

1)Zheng He's expedition; something along the lines of:
-Discover the new world by 1440 ad or
-Have the largest fleet in the world by 1440 (also consisting of Caravals and other "high tech ships") and have the whole of the Indian Ocean revealed to you on the map.

2-3)The Two Qing UHVS can be:
-Control 40% of the world population and 30% of gdp in 1760 ad.
-Control or Vassalize all of China, Vietnam, Korea, Central Asia, Mongolia and make sure that there is not European presence in East Asia, South East Asia and Indonesian archipelago in 1844 ad.

That's why I think the current Chinese civ cannot present the post Mongolian invasion China.

Everything including the UHV, UP, UB can be; just look at the Italians.

 

[Qiu]

The Manchu rulers even set knelt epitaphs in every Taixue. That says "1. not to discuss politics 2. not to form any parites 3. not to publish any articles". These are just the freedom of speech, the freedom of association, and the freedom of the press. So I don't think the Chinese UP and UB can work anymore, or be the first one to discover liberalism as many guys in this forum complained

 

[Linkman226]

I had suggested Manchus myself some weeks back

I thought they were rejected.

 

[AOS9001]

In principle I agree with this: China is too stable when controlling only its usual area, while they should be rather fragile at this point, with any other problem putting them at risk of collapse. Occurences like them taking over all of Mongolia proper after a respawn shouldn't happen in my opinion.

But that's exactly what happened. For all intents and purposes, the Ming were a respawn, and they were followed by the Qing, who took over Manchuria, Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, and even expanding out to Lake Balkhash in Kazakhstan. Perhaps their stability map should change over time, if that's possible.

 

[Dumanios]

Could you give Korea a flip area? China built Sanshan in one of my Korea games, and it's annoying having a foreign city so close by.

 

[Leoreth]

-One of the purpose stated was that it would help the Mongol conquest but after you edited the Mongols in the latest svn they dont need help. And I don't understand what the early Manchu dynasties would accomplish that a better barbarian stacks/ cities cannot do now.

Circumvent the Great Wall for example?

-Secondly if a Manchu dynasty is put in; it is almost certain that it will not be playable because of the large time frame and territorial difference of each dynasty.

Great that you tell me how I will do things

-There is only one Manchu dynasty worth putting in and that is the Qing Dynasty; what im saying is that the Qing are better represented as a Chinese respawn.

Jin and Liao would be the only things that would make me particularly care for doing this currently.

I had suggested Manchus myself some weeks back

I thought they were rejected.

Really? Seems like I overlooked this, sorry.

 

[mayor]

I just found a discrepancy in the Civelopedia
namely with the cathedrals,stupa's etc.

If you go to the Civelopedia in the Main Menu it says you need two temples for a Stupa
(I checked for a Korea game so I'm sticking with stupa for now )

Spoiler :

and when you check the Civelopdia via a game it says you need four (the building list in the City screen also says this)

Spoiler :

I was mildly surprised when I saw the two temple requirement since I knew it used to be four. obviously I took my leisure and found out to late I needed four...

 

[J. pride]

Great that you tell me how I will do things

Atleast I said almost ; but anyways that was before I realized that you only intended it for Jin and Liao because, if you were somehow going to fit the Qing in there then i would be impressed if you could pull it off. Thus my statement.

Circumvent the Great Wall for example?

Point taken but I'm still against it. Wouldnt it better to just adjust the Great Wall; The Wall wasnt particularly good at defending China anyways, i always thought it was more of psychological thing. According to the internet, here what i found for the Great Wall of Chinas Purpose:

To keep invaders out – The Great Wall was a psychological as well as physical barrier against invading military forces.

To serve as lookout posts – The elevated locations of the Great Wall and its towers enabled distant observation for invaders to provide the earliest possible warning.

To provide a communication and early warning system – Relaying from one watchtower to another using fire signals at night and smoke signals during the day, messages could be sent over long distances in a short time.

As an elevated roadway along the border – This enabled rapid deployment of personnel from one place to another.

I think you can definitely adjust the power of the wall according to this to something like:

China gets a x% bonus against barbarians inside the Great Wall territory.
or/and
They can spot incoming barbarians before they become visible.
or/and
Troop movement is faster inside Chinese territory.

Since this Manchurian Civ will not affect the later Ming and Qing dynasties; it doesnt really matter which way you decide. I just thought putting Barbarians would be easier but if the Manchurian civ is the solution then thats fine too. But do u plan on making them playable?


BTW: Whats next for the svn, are u going to move on to the Seljuks and the Ottomans (and perhaps Egypt ?) because i have quite a few suggestions for them.

 

[Depravo]

Interestingly enough the commemorative stelae in front of the tombs of all the Qing Emperors are dual language Chinese and Manchu right to the end of the dynasty, including Ci'xi's.

However, I tend to agree that the Qing are better represented as China.

 

[Leoreth]

I'm doing several minor things right now (including the Thai UP), but then it's the Turks. Don't bother coming up with UHVs or the like for the Seljuks, they will be minors just like in Synthesis. I plan to replace the first Ottoman goal in any case, though. Let's see what you come up with.

 

[J. pride]

Don't bother coming up with UHVs or the like for the Seljuks

Why would I do that when I was the one who proposed the current form of the Seljuks in the first place? Anyways as you will see, there are some aspects of the Seljuks that Linkman could not finish and tune up (like them expanding in the west but not conquering the eastern parts of the empire); I will bring those points up; and just so I know will you also be editing Egypt in the same timeperiod?

 

[IrishDragon]

I intend 1.9 to include a history module that does exactly that.

Cool, sounds good

Speaking of vassals, what do you think of resetting a civ's stability to zero when it vassalizes? Because usually it's very annoying to try to capitulate someone because even if you finally get them to accept it they'll collapse soon afterwards.

Could there be any drawback to something like that?

Makes sense, only drawback I can think of is it might keep some weak civs like the Maya around longer than they should be if they vassalize, taking up later space for better civs that could respawn (as I understand it, only a certain number of civs can be alive at once?)

 

[Leoreth]

Nothing special for now, just enough that they don't look like a blatant ancient Egypt carbon copy, i.e. Arabian city names, capital always at Al-Qahira (and disable the possibility of Arabia having its capital there), a genuine medieval LH (I'm thinking Baibars) etc.