Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[great.taurus]

I mean total indepandence,a new civilization,not only a vassal state of their mother country.

I think the idea is that's how they end up - but not how they start.

 

[J. pride]

I think the idea is that's how they end up - but not how they start.

Exactly,
What do you guys think of the idea?

 

[great.taurus]

Exactly.
What do you guys think of the idea?

Love it.

 

[J. pride]

Love it.

thnx

 

[Ekolite]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to be honest I don't think any of these civs would really add very much to the game. Their spawn dates are just too late for them to really contribute, and most games have already been won, decided, or have become boring long before any of these colonial civs have spawned. I kind of like the idea of colonies forming some kind of vassal-state, which could perhaps demand and be given various powers throughout the course of the game, but if this was to be added I would suggest they were present from as soon as the land is settled. Ie. When Spain conquers the Aztecs, they found the colony of Mexico, when Portugal settles Brazil, they found the colony of Brazil. At the beginning of the game, and perhaps for quite some time, these cities are no different to the homeland, as the colonial powers maintain total control. However, this would eventually become a drag on stability and players would have the ability to grant certain powers to the colonies in return for a boost to stability. This might start out with say a reduction of output (research, gold, etc) by 20%, and then by maybe 40%, and would eventually reach the point where the colony breaks away from the civ proper and becomes a vassal state, representing autonomous rule. Eventually these could rebel and form independent nations. The American spawn would probably be edited to form a part of this new mechanism. Idealy, you'd be able to set different levels of home rule for each colony, although this may be too complicated. The best thing about this is that it would allow the player to try to fight off or at least control the decolonization, rather then your Empire suddenly falling apart all at once for no reason, which is not particularly realistic, and while sudden collapse might be appropriate for the Romans, isn't necessarily appropriate for the colonial powers. Also this would allow the mechanism to be present throughout a much larger portion of the game, rather then (for the most part) just the last 100 turns or so.

I think a system like this would allow decolonization to become an interesting facet of the game, rather then (to be quite honest) something quite frustrating, as your entire empire suddenly declares independence and relegates you to a tiny island off the coast of Europe.

However, if adding a bunch of new civs in this way would increase turn lengths or anything I would probably rather not see it included. As I said, by the time any decolonization mechanic would reach full swing most games have ended anyway.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks for replying in so much detail! I definitely will.

It's just that I would so much like to see Mexico around, and the other civs as well. I like the map to be as civ diverse as possible =). But that's of course up to you.

Sure. I think they should come free in the majority of games, but it's always nicer if you can prevent it. Not that it will be easy if you actually control the whole Spanish Empire, though.

About Mexico City's growth, the "fast" urbanization process started in the 1940s and only recently slowed down. The growth was caused by massive internal migration, from the countryside to the capital, as the country industrialized and institutionalized health reforms. 1970 would actually already be too early for real life. But ah, if you want it earlier, it's not a big deal; it would definitely be more challenging and interesting.

This is the population of the Metro area throughout the 20th Century:
1900 - 0.3 million
1920 - 0.6 million
1940 - 1.6 million
1960 - 5.3 million
1980 - 13.4 million
1990 - 15 million
2000 - 20 million
2010 - around 23 million
* In case you're wondering, the Valley of Mexico was much more populated during Aztec times than by early XXth century.
I had already thought of the extra food tile. Sometimes I add it via WB when I'm playing the Aztecs in modern times. Early XXth Century would be the point to add it, to give it time to have an effect on city growth by late XXth Century.

Thanks for that. It seems to be more a question of gameplay then, to find out when it is best achievable.

Yeah, that's another option, but Mexico has never declared war on anyone (except Spain, of course), so it would be quite ahistorical. Mexico City, as capital of the New Spain, had already governed those areas for almost 300 years by the time Independence was declared. Not only those, but also Cuba, the Dominican Republic, (Puerto Rico, I think) and the Philippines were all governed from Mexico City. Yet, all those islands remained Spanish after independence, which is why I didn't suggest them in the spawn area. Another point to consider is that a "Maintaining Territorial Integrity" is different from all the "Conquering" UHV's in that its strategy is defense and stability related, and not so much attack related.

Yeah, but that's also part of the problem, because defense oriented goals are usually quite easy because the AI is often not aggressive enough, and even if it is, it's usually easy to defend on your own soil. And we don't have to phrase it as an "conquer" goal, "control" would suffice. Most of the time, Texas and California are still empty when Mexico would spawn, so you'd actually have to go settle them. While that's not precisely historical since cities there were founded by the Spanish, you could understand this as increasing Mexican population density just like you mentioned. So there are basically two scenarios:

1) These areas are controlled by Spain: I think then it's within the spirit of a grander independence movement to capture these cities as well.
2) These areas are empty: you'd have to settle and hold them against America.

I hope I didn't sound too nationalistic myself, I actually tried to be as objective as I could hahaha.

Not at all, and I know what you mean

In any case, the US should be more technologically advanced than Mexico (at least by the time Mexico spawns) and they should have quite an aggressive attitude towards Mexico, so it should be a hard goal. Perhaps having a "Fulfill the Manifest Destiny" UHV would be fitting for the Americans. War should definitely happen between them at some point or another (but please don't code it to a fixed date, that's predictable and uncool IMO).

Sure. These things have to be tested and finetuned after everything else is in place.

Also, if there was any way to make the French aggressive towards Mexico during the 1800's but then have no diplomacy penalty afterwards, then that would be great too. The french invaded a couple of times back then, but we're all good buddies now .

There's already a mechanic for Europeans waging war in America so they Mexicans can easily be temporarily added.

Yes, for sure; Mexico is a big oil exporter and oil makes our number one income and energy source, but compared to other oil exporters Mexico is not that big. I think it's Venezuela (Gran Colombia?) and the Persian Gulf countries who would have that honor. Yet anything related to getting X oil resources would be awkward, as it would force expansion that has never happened in real life (as there's a limit to how much you can actually get through trade).

Yeah, I figured as much, but now that we have the Oil company, the goal could also be to control a certain amount of oil corporations in your cities. This can be achieved by either having a lot of oil or only one oil and good infrastructure.

If you're thinking of something to replace the diplomacy UHV with, because maybe it's not possible to code, I'll try to think of other "uncommon" yet "fitting" goals. Maybe something related to biodiversity or cultural diversity; that's also something we're "officially" proud of =).

It's not that it's impossible to code, but rather that it's hard to control the challenge of these goals because they depend on AI behaviour, which makes them either to easy or unpredictably hard, which is both not good.

Totally agreed on the hard independence part. I think independence wars weren't easy in any case. A good way to implement this would be with some instability in certain areas, in general instability upon spawn or in the appearance of a *small* army for the mother country in the new nation's territory. But do have it be something small, nothing of a conquerors event dimension! Those wars were all eventually won! (So I'd favor something instability related). But agreed on having Lima and not Cuzco - maybe a simple name change could do it.

Nice idea with the mother country army. That's definitely more feasible than having it the other way around, with the new country having to take over everything (the AI performance would be a nightmare).

On a different Civ, if you're considering having a Gran Colombia Civilization, the obvious LH would be Simón Bolivar. I was thinking that if you went for the option of having new world civs spawn with just the capital and then conquer their territory, then it would be fitting for Bolivar's first UHV to make sure they all succeed, but South America is too big for an army to travel all around the continent and conquer every city's independence in the couple of turns that all those independence movements took in real life terms. Maybe a UP with positive attitude from Latin American leaders would do this? Although, I know that wouldn't be very original...

Yeah, Gran Colombia would be the fourth one in our list of Latin American civs. They're mainly to fill the area, though, and I don't plan for them to be playable yet. Same thing for Peru, which could work as an Inca respawn.

Oh, and here's were I got the suggestions for Argentina, maybe you'll see something you like there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina

Thanks.

Thanks!
Now these are some other civilizations in my plan.
3.Australia
Leader:unsettled
UU: unsettled
UB: pub-(grocer)
UP: Aussie on the Sea:
Coast +1 and +1
UHV:
1.Secure or get by trade 5 sheep and 5 coals in 1920AD
2.Control at least 7 cities on the Pacific islands in 1950AD(except Australia and Tasmania)
3.Be the first to discover Genetics and Composites
Rating:
TRADE:★★★★★
PRODUCTION:★★★
CULTURE:★★★
GROWTH:★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★★
Spawn/Flip area:New South Wales,Victoria and Tasmania

Good goals! I say more on the subject of Australia when replying to great.taurus' post below.

4.Canada
Leader:Samuel de Champlain
UU:unsettled
UB:unsettled
UP:The name-unsettled
Cities neighboured with USA keep at least 9 plots and never revolt because of culture
UHV:
1.Complete the railway from Vancouver to Halifax before 1900AD,and ensure all the region controlled by Canada
2.Have at least 5 Arctic coastal cities in 1950AD(include the Hudson Bay)
3.Be the first to discover Ecology and Future Tech
Rating:
TRADE:★★★★
PRODUCTION:★★★
ECULTURE:★★★★
GROWTH:★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★★
Spawn/Flip area:Ontario,Quebec,New Brunswick and Nova Skocia

Iirc Trudeau is the only Canadian LH around here (quite surprising if you ask me). I also think Canada should definitely have a resource (oil and fur) related goal, as well as something representing their peacekeeping efforts (afaik they are the nation that's involved in most UN missions over history). Maybe being elected secretary general for a certain amount of times?

5.Mexico
Leader:unsettled
UU:unsettled
UB:unsettled
UPower of Mural:
Wonders will never obsolete in Mexico
UHV:
1.Ensure there're no Europe colonies on the Caribbean coastal in 1900AD
2.Control Texas,New Mexico,Arizona and California in 1950AD
3.Build the Olympic Park in Ciudad de Mexico before 1970AD
Rating:
TRADE:★★★
PRODUCTION:★★★
CULTURE:★★★
GROWTH:★★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★
Spawn/Flip area:South of Rio Grande and north of Panama

The UP is quite good, but I don't think it will benefit Mexico that much?

6.Indonesia
Leader:Sukarno
UU:unsettled
UB:unsettled
UP:Units can move on the coast in Indonesia
UHV:
1.Ensure there're no European,Chinese,Japanese and American cities in South and Southeast Asia in 1960AD
2.Ensure in every controlled city Indonesian culture larger than 50% in 2000AD
3.Make Jakarta the most populous city in 2000AD
TRADE:★★★
PRODUCTION:★★
CULTURE:★★★
GROWTH:★★★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★
Spawn/Flip areaulau Sumatera,Kalimantan Island and Jawa

Indonesia actually is already in the new version

Hope the new version will be released soon!Thanks Leoreth and all the creators!

I hope that too

If you are doing the post colonial civs as proper with UHV's, UU's etc, I might as well put forward my proposal for Australia. This is lifted pretty much word for word from my post in Civ's in Abundance, with some additional comments.

For the purposes of this suggestion, I am assuming Australia spawns as a Vassal of the major colonial power on their continent (probably English or Dutch)

Name: Australia
Trade: *****
Production: ***
Culture: ***
Growth: *
Starting Situation: ***
Leaders: John Curtin

• By far the best option.
• Art exists for this leader already.

Yeah, and the art is also quite good. Would've been my choice as well.

UU: Light Horse – Replaces Cavalry, retains ability to get defensive bonuses. Starts with charge promotion.

• Explanation: While there are a number of choices for UU that could be chosen to represent Australia, few are actually unique. The Australian Light Horse presents a truly unique unit - capable of fighting as regular infantry, taking a position as mounted infantry and charging enemy lines as cavalry.
• I know there are art files for the Light Horse somewhere.

It's balanced and its strengths align with its historical role. Perfect!

UB: Convict Gaol – Replaces Jail. +5% production, +5% commerce.

• Explanation: Represents colonial era Australia. Also allows them to maintain competitive in terms of industry despite such a low population.
• I dont know if appropriate art files exist, or even if they are needed.

Good idea. We could do without art if necessary (it's not as important as with units).

UP: Power of Commonwealth - Gold from Trade Routes increased by 25%.

• Not totally sold on this. It's a good fit, but it seems a little dull, to be perfectly honest.

Yeah, true, and the Phoenicians have something similar already. Although I like the general idea.

UHV (Pick 3 of the following - I would recommend the first three for the sake of gameplay):
Control at least one city in New Guinea, one city in Fiji and two in New Zealand by 2000 AD

• Ahistorical
• Explanation: Australia controlled New Guinea for over 50 years, and both Fiji and New Zealand nearly joined the federation at its birth.
• Every civ needs a good expansionist goal

Yep

Gift 20 military units to other civilizations by 1950

• Approximately Historical
• Explanation: Australians fought in many major wars in which their troops were placed under foreign rule.
• I like this one because it is just so different from any other UHV.

It's definitely interesting, but isn't 20 a bit too easy?

Be the first to discover Refrigeration & Fusion.

• Historical
• A pretty standard UHV. These tech UHV's are usually reasonably difficult, but not boring.

Australia has already invented Fusion? Why weren't we told? But I definitely like a tech goal that focuses on modern techs instead.

Achieve independence from foreign rule by 1901 (Or 1950 if spawning in 1901)

• Historical
• Kinda boring and generic.

Have 20000 (or so) Gold by 2010

• Approximately Historical
• Also pretty boring.

Yeah, true.

Preferred Civic: Commonwealth
Start: 1855 AD (When Self Rule had its roots and nationalism was kicking off) or 1901 AD (When Australia Federated). Pick whichever one is more balanced.
Starting Location: Canberra
Flip Zone: All cities on the continent belonging to their master.

Just as an aside, the suggestion from Soul-Breathing is pretty good too

His UP is probably a better choice, and his UHV's are all pretty good, except the research one which I don't think is historical.

Perhaps a combination of the two suggestions would serve well.

My brain is already rattling

 

[Kcawesome]

Thanks!
Now these are some other civilizations in my plan.
3.Australia
Leader:unsettled
UU: unsettled
UB: pub-(grocer)
UP: Aussie on the Sea:
Coast +1 and +1
UHV:
1.Secure or get by trade 5 sheep and 5 coals in 1920AD
2.Control at least 7 cities on the Pacific islands in 1950AD(except Australia and Tasmania)
3.Be the first to discover Genetics and Composites
Rating:
TRADE:★★★★★
PRODUCTION:★★★
CULTURE:★★★
GROWTH:★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★★
Spawn/Flip area:New South Wales,Victoria and Tasmania

4.Canada
Leader:Samuel de Champlain
UU:unsettled
UB:unsettled
UP:The name-unsettled
Cities neighboured with USA keep at least 9 plots and never revolt because of culture
UHV:
1.Complete the railway from Vancouver to Halifax before 1900AD,and ensure all the region controlled by Canada
2.Have at least 5 Arctic coastal cities in 1950AD(include the Hudson Bay)
3.Be the first to discover Ecology and Future Tech
Rating:
TRADE:★★★★
PRODUCTION:★★★
ECULTURE:★★★★
GROWTH:★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★★
Spawn/Flip area:Ontario,Quebec,New Brunswick and Nova Skocia

5.Mexico
Leader:unsettled
UU:unsettled
UB:unsettled
UPower of Mural:
Wonders will never obsolete in Mexico
UHV:
1.Ensure there're no Europe colonies on the Caribbean coastal in 1900AD
2.Control Texas,New Mexico,Arizona and California in 1950AD
3.Build the Olympic Park in Ciudad de Mexico before 1970AD
Rating:
TRADE:★★★
PRODUCTION:★★★
CULTURE:★★★
GROWTH:★★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★
Spawn/Flip area:South of Rio Grande and north of Panama

6.Indonesia
Leader:Sukarno
UU:unsettled
UB:unsettled
UP:Units can move on the coast in Indonesia
UHV:
1.Ensure there're no European,Chinese,Japanese and American cities in South and Southeast Asia in 1960AD
2.Ensure in every controlled city Indonesian culture larger than 50% in 2000AD
3.Make Jakarta the most populous city in 2000AD
TRADE:★★★
PRODUCTION:★★
CULTURE:★★★
GROWTH:★★★★★
STARTING SITUATION:★★
Spawn/Flip areaulau Sumatera,Kalimantan Island and Jawa

Hope the new version will be released soon!Thanks Leoreth and all the creators!

For Canada, wouldn't John Macdonald be a better choice?
Also, would a good UU be the RCMP (Calvary with higher strength and faster movement through woodland)?

 

[soul-breathing]

The UP is quite good, but I don't think it will benefit Mexico that much?

Thanks for reply!
I think this UP can make Chichen Itza useable even in the Industrial Era,so defence bonus of city will be higher and it can be very useful when at war with America.

 

[Leoreth]

That's actually quite well thought out

 

[soul-breathing]

After watching opinions of some guys above,I think special kinds of Carvaly may be the most suitable UU for Australia,Canada and Argentina.Thanks them!

 

[great.taurus]

It's definitely interesting, but isn't 20 a bit too easy?

20 is fairly abritrary. Make it 1000 if you want.

Australia has already invented Fusion? Why weren't we told? But I definitely like a tech goal that focuses on modern techs instead.

More 'discovered' it, I think. I found it out when researching for Civs in Abundance, but I cant find my source at the moment. Hold on.

My brain is already rattling

Don't let your modding skills rattle out!

 

[Qiu]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to be honest I don't think any of these civs would really add very much to the game. Their spawn dates are just too late for them to really contribute, and most games have already been won, decided, or have become boring long before any of these colonial civs have spawned...

My brain is already rattling

What about a new industrial era start scenario in the future? In a big vision.

 

[mayor]

I like that idea..
A new scenario starting in 1800 AD or with the ACW

When all those new Civ's come into play it would definitely be nice to be able to skip to long waiting

 

[Leoreth]

True, I already considered something like a 1500 or 1700 AD start, but it's a lot of work because you have to place much more at the beginning because of all the already active civs.

 

[soul-breathing]

I think if you truly want to make a 1500AD or 1700AD starting scene,the mod of Giant Earth Map could be consulted.There're 1500AD and 1860AD startings in that mod.

 

[soul-breathing]

And I also think,in the scenerio 3000BC,if at the time Byzantine spawns and Roma controlled the spawn area,Byzantine can not appear.After all,Byzantine was a part of Roma in fact.

 

[ramz711]

And I also think,in the scenerio 3000BC,if at the time Byzantine spawns and Roma controlled the spawn area,Byzantine can not appear.After all,Byzantine was a part of Roma in fact.

Yes, but Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople and his successors split the empire. After about the middle of the 4th century, the Eastern and Western Empires were effectively two different countries. After the West fell, the East continued to call themselves the Romaioi, the "Romans." Even the Turks call the ethnic Greeks in their country, both during the Empire and in the Republic, "Rum."

Also, Leoreth, I see on the front page that you still need music for some of the LHs. If you still need something for Yaroslav and Nicolas II, might I suggest "Spasi, Gospodi, Lyudi Tyova" and "Bozhe, Tsarya Krani"? The first was the national hymn of the early Russian Empire, and the latter was the anthem of the late Empire. Unfortunately, I don't have music files for them, but you can find good choral arrangements on YouTube, and instrumental versions of both of them are included in the 1812 Overture.

Also, when you get started on Europe, if you need help on information about Orthodoxy, let me know. I'm Orthodox and an amateur historian.

Lastly, I'm having trouble with the SVN. I've downloaded Tortoise, but when I right-click on my \BtS\Mods folder and try to run it, Tortoise runs for a few seconds, and then gives me this:
"Can't create directory 'C:\\Program Files _x86)...\BeyondtheSword\Mods\Dawn_of_Civilization\.svn': Access is denied." What am I doing wrong? I used the URL you gave in the first post; any advice?

 

[Cosmos1985]

I completely agree with Ekolite on these new civs. This is not RoM, more is not always better Ekolites suggestions are far better in my opinion, if we are to change how to deal with post-colonialism. Please consider them, Leoreth.

 

[great.taurus]

More 'discovered' it, I think. I found it out when researching for Civs in Abundance, but I cant find my source at the moment. Hold on.

I may have been thinking of this guys work - I'm honestly not sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Oliphant

 

[Leoreth]

And I also think,in the scenerio 3000BC,if at the time Byzantine spawns and Roma controlled the spawn area,Byzantine can not appear.After all,Byzantine was a part of Roma in fact.

True, but both parts of the empire started act like they're separate entities not short after the Byzantine spawn in 330 AD, for example when East Roman emperors declined to help their fellow Western colleagues during the Germanic invasions and even paid one tribe (I think it was the Ostrogoths) tribute so that they go pillaging in West Rome instead.

Also, Leoreth, I see on the front page that you still need music for some of the LHs. If you still need something for Yaroslav and Nicolas II, might I suggest "Spasi, Gospodi, Lyudi Tyova" and "Bozhe, Tsarya Krani"? The first was the national hymn of the early Russian Empire, and the latter was the anthem of the late Empire. Unfortunately, I don't have music files for them, but you can find good choral arrangements on YouTube, and instrumental versions of both of them are included in the 1812 Overture.

Thanks. Finding good arrangements is part of the problem, though, because they can't be too heavily instrumented or obtrusive.

Also, when you get started on Europe, if you need help on information about Orthodoxy, let me know. I'm Orthodox and an amateur historian.

Thanks, I'll come back on that.

Lastly, I'm having trouble with the SVN. I've downloaded Tortoise, but when I right-click on my \BtS\Mods folder and try to run it, Tortoise runs for a few seconds, and then gives me this:
"Can't create directory 'C:\\Program Files _x86)...\BeyondtheSword\Mods\Dawn_of_Civilization\.svn': Access is denied." What am I doing wrong? I used the URL you gave in the first post; any advice?

Likely a problem with your file access rights settings. Try to create the folder on your desktop and move it into the Mods folder afterwards.

I completely agree with Ekolite on these new civs. This is not RoM, more is not always better Ekolites suggestions are far better in my opinion, if we are to change how to deal with post-colonialism. Please consider them, Leoreth.

Sure (actually I only noticed them after I read your post, must've been a crosspost issue). I certainly don't want to force too much determism into the post-colonial era, and it should be definitely possible to maintain your colonial holdings if you set your mind on it.