Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Qiu]

Also, Leoreth, I see on the front page that you still need music for some of the LHs. If you still need something for Yaroslav and Nicolas II, might I suggest "Spasi, Gospodi, Lyudi Tyova" and "Bozhe, Tsarya Krani"? The first was the national hymn of the early Russian Empire, and the latter was the anthem of the late Empire. Unfortunately, I don't have music files for them, but you can find good choral arrangements on YouTube, and instrumental versions of both of them are included in the 1812 Overture.

http://www.hymn.ru/index-en.html
I think this page may help

 

[AOS9001]

I think if you truly want to make a 1500AD or 1700AD starting scene,the mod of Giant Earth Map could be consulted.There're 1500AD and 1860AD startings in that mod.

That'd require Leoreth and company to re-write just about the whole game... Believe me, I want to see that as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure if we're there yet.

@Byzantium stuff: They still don't spawn when Greece is dead and Rome controls the area, I've noticed.

 

[ozqar]

The main problem with that is Lima is built right on the coast, and some few hundred miles west of Cuzco... I think it's about 3 tiles west, in the game.

Oh, didn't notice that. Well then, destroying Cuzco then? Let all be in the name of modernization..

-There should be system where you are born as a colony and have to achieve independence through various means. My recommendation to do this is to add a more stern and profitable form of vassalization where the Mother country controls 50% of your wealth (before research or culture) and all of your luxury and strategic resources and all food resources that the mother nation does not have.

So this vassalization would have several points:
-Your color and flag (or variants) are the same as the Mother Country. (this might be similar to what happens to Ghorids in SOI; as they get a mid game color and flag change too and i think Synthesis already has this with the vassals part only of course)
-You share 50% of you wealth with mother country.
-Mother country can ask you for a certain number of troops in times of war.
-You share all tech with mother country.
-You give all resources to mother country except certain food and strategic ones.

These Post-Colonial Civs start out as these "Vassals" stated above that can gain Independence through two means:

a) As a colony, you start building an army (but your choices of units will be limited thus the mother nation because a) you dont have strategic resources and b) several units would just be disabled for colonies to represent history). After you think you have an adequete army, you declare war on you mother country which leads to an (or multiple) army spawning (of the mother country) in your country and several cities flipping to them. Then you fight for your independence. Historically this was the method used America and Latin America.

b)This is the gradual independence policy used by Canada and Australia; here you have achieve certain things to "earn" autonomy. These are:

-You have to have a large enough population and economy; possibly requiring you to have a larger population and economy than your mother country.
-You have to discover certain techs like for example Democracy, Constitution, Railroad or something along those lines to have independence.

(although declaring independence would not have a deadline but you can shape the UHVs in a way where it would not be possible to acheive without declaring independence in a certain timeperiod)

Other things that can also be included to this option (but im not totally onboard with):
-Have a military larger than ur mother country.
-Be more tech advanced than ...
etc

Requirments for the Ai and Human to acheive independence would be entirely different (a lot more harderr independence for the human); but the AI can even get a scripted independence if you want. Each country can have a different or unique requirement/war type to achieve independence (which i recommend) or a generic 2 options for all. Achieving Independence can very well serve as the first UHV for all these new civs and imo it would not be boring because every country will be in a different and unique position and will have to do different thing to acheive independence. It will be pretty hard the fact that you will be heavily burdened by the 50% income tax by the mother country and giving all resources while acheiving certain goals for independence. Besides the obvious advantages for using this system, there is also the additional advantage that civs that wil get little gameplay time if spawned when they declared independence will get a lot more gameplay time like in the case of Canada or Australia or even Brazil.

Leoreth, if you do decide to let the post-colonial civs spawn during the actual colonization time, then making the colonies give all these resources and gold to the mother country would be very fitting (and annoying, if you're the colony). This would all encourage you to achieve independence. I don't know if implementing all this would require too much new coding, with new dialogs and options for both the master and colony, but I'd say it would make for interesting gameplay. As the colony, having more time to play would be quite useful, and as master, deciding how to manage the colonies would be require new strategies.

J Pride, agreed on the fighting option, but Canada and Australia never had (to date) more population, economic output or military strength than the UK and they managed independence anyhow. The discover x technology option is more adequate, I'd say, for them. Having different requirements for independence for different civs could be the best option, if it's not too difficult to code.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to be honest I don't think any of these civs would really add very much to the game. Their spawn dates are just too late for them to really contribute, and most games have already been won, decided, or have become boring long before any of these colonial civs have spawned.

Well, most Latin American countries declared independence not much later than the US. Mexico's declaration, in 1810, is only about 12 turns later than America's, in 1776. Argentina and Colombia have similar dates, and Peru and Brazil followed soon after (about 14 turns after the US), so I wouldn't say it's that late. Canada and Australia, on the other hand would spawn quite later if they waited until their Declaration of Independence date.

In any case, it's true that most games become boring by this time, but I'd say this is because there's nothing new happening anymore, and the decolonization could help with this.

Yeah, but that's also part of the problem, because defense oriented goals are usually quite easy because the AI is often not aggressive enough, and even if it is, it's usually easy to defend on your own soil. And we don't have to phrase it as an "conquer" goal, "control" would suffice. Most of the time, Texas and California are still empty when Mexico would spawn, so you'd actually have to go settle them. While that's not precisely historical since cities there were founded by the Spanish, you could understand this as increasing Mexican population density just like you mentioned. So there are basically two scenarios:

1) These areas are controlled by Spain: I think then it's within the spirit of a grander independence movement to capture these cities as well.
2) These areas are empty: you'd have to settle and hold them against America.

Well, I guess I can agree with that. Moreover, I think it would depend much on when the country spawns. If the new country is to spawn at the date of independence, then I'd say that they should be born with the whole territory they had at the point (the way America currently does). Most of these wars lasted a long time in real life (Mexico's lasted 11 years), but in game turns that would be quite fast and impossible to do. If you let the new countries start way earlier, as vassals of the mother country, then fighting a war of independence to get the whole territory would definitely be way more cool and historical.

Nice idea with the mother country army. That's definitely more feasible than having it the other way around, with the new country having to take over everything (the AI performance would be a nightmare).

Well, you have many ideas and options now to choose how you want to combine them .

Yeah, I figured as much, but now that we have the Oil company, the goal could also be to control a certain amount of oil corporations in your cities. This can be achieved by either having a lot of oil or only one oil and good infrastructure.

It's not that it's impossible to code, but rather that it's hard to control the challenge of these goals because they depend on AI behaviour, which makes them either to easy or unpredictably hard, which is both not good.

Agreed on the AI unpredictability. I've never finished understanding how the other leaders take their stand on the human player, but you'd know better. Could you think of any other diplo-type UHV?
Or about the oil company, yeah, I guess that could work as well .

Yeah, Gran Colombia would be the fourth one in our list of Latin American civs. They're mainly to fill the area, though, and I don't plan for them to be playable yet. Same thing for Peru, which could work as an Inca respawn.

>

What other civs have you thought of adding in this mode, just to fill up space and represent world decolonization? I have many in my head that I'd love to see, but don't wanna list them all for they could really make this a looooong turn waiting game .

The UP is quite good, but I don't think it will benefit Mexico that much?

>

Thanks for reply!
I think this UP can make Chichen Itza usable even in the Industrial Era,so defense bonus of city will be higher and it can be very useful when at war with America.

How did you like the Catholic-related UP I suggested? That would help better than having a working ONE wonder. Actually, if there was one "wonder" that could represent Modern Mexico, that would be the Basilica de Guadalupe. It's a shrine and pilgrimage site in Mexico City, at the site of the (real or not) apparition of the Virgin Mary during the XVIth Century. Some years ago I looked up how many people go there annually, and I don't recall the numbers, but it was a larger number per year than the Vatican City had. I can recheck if you want .

I'm not suggesting that you add a new wonder to the game, but that you turn this into Mexico's UP. Receive 1 (or X) gold in Mexico City for every Catholic city you own (or other Latin American countries own) AND receive 1 hammer in each Catholic city you have; all this regardless of state religion. Mexico is the 2nd most populous Catholic country in the world (after Brazil), and this shrine is in fact visited by many Latin Americans, and this would nicely represent all that .

True, I already considered something like a 1500 or 1700 AD start, but it's a lot of work because you have to place much more at the beginning because of all the already active civs.

I'd be glad to help with anything you need (I can't code, though haha). I think that a new scenario for that time period is badly needed now!

Tonight I'll post a map with a proposal with correct city names, because they're currently terrible, and resource placement.

Oh, and I also like the "Cities on the coast" UP of Australia's.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh, didn't notice that. Well then, destroying Cuzco then? Let all be in the name of modernization..

Actually the Inca found Limatambo quite often ... I was always under the impression that this represents the precursor city for Lima.

Leoreth, if you do decide to let the post-colonial civs spawn during the actual colonization time, then making the colonies give all these resources and gold to the mother country would be very fitting (and annoying, if you're the colony). This would all encourage you to achieve independence. I don't know if implementing all this would require too much new coding, with new dialogs and options for both the master and colony, but I'd say it would make for interesting gameplay. As the colony, having more time to play would be quite useful, and as master, deciding how to manage the colonies would be require new strategies.

J Pride, agreed on the fighting option, but Canada and Australia never had (to date) more population, economic output or military strength than the UK and they managed independence anyhow. The discover x technology option is more adequate, I'd say, for them. Having different requirements for independence for different civs could be the best option, if it's not too difficult to code.

Well, I don't know either, but I know that tampering with the diplomacy options is no child's play. It'll certainly involve some AI changes, so I don't know if this approach is really worth the effort.

Well, most Latin American countries declared independence not much later than the US. Mexico's declaration, in 1810, is only about 12 turns later than America's, in 1776. Argentina and Colombia have similar dates, and Peru and Brazil followed soon after (about 14 turns after the US), so I wouldn't say it's that late. Canada and Australia, on the other hand would spawn quite later if they waited until their Declaration of Independence date.

In any case, it's true that most games become boring by this time, but I'd say this is because there's nothing new happening anymore, and the decolonization could help with this.

Exactly. The Latin American countries are much higher than Britain's successors in my priority list for this very reason.

Well, I guess I can agree with that. Moreover, I think it would depend much on when the country spawns. If the new country is to spawn at the date of independence, then I'd say that they should be born with the whole territory they had at the point (the way America currently does). Most of these wars lasted a long time in real life (Mexico's lasted 11 years), but in game turns that would be quite fast and impossible to do. If you let the new countries start way earlier, as vassals of the mother country, then fighting a war of independence to get the whole territory would definitely be way more cool and historical.

Well yes. Better we don't bother with such decisions for the moment.

Well, you have many ideas and options now to choose how you want to combine them .

I can test how they work and then decide on those that are most fun

Agreed on the AI unpredictability. I've never finished understanding how the other leaders take their stand on the human player, but you'd know better. Could you think of any other diplo-type UHV?

No, they all suffer from the same problems unfortunately

What other civs have you thought of adding in this mode, just to fill up space and represent world decolonization? I have many in my head that I'd love to see, but don't wanna list them all for they could really make this a looooong turn waiting game .

I'm mainly concerned with Latin America and that would be Mexico, Gran Colombia, Peru, Brazil and Argentina.

How did you like the Catholic-related UP I suggested? That would help better than having a working ONE wonder. Actually, if there was one "wonder" that could represent Modern Mexico, that would be the Basilica de Guadalupe. It's a shrine and pilgrimage site in Mexico City, at the site of the (real or not) apparition of the Virgin Mary during the XVIth Century. Some years ago I looked up how many people go there annually, and I don't recall the numbers, but it was a larger number per year than the Vatican City had. I can recheck if you want .

Okay. Actually I was thinking about adding a "Floating Gardens" wonder (Tenochtitlan/Mexico City really needs every food buff it can get), so they'd benefit from its effect as well.

I'm not suggesting that you add a new wonder to the game, but that you turn this into Mexico's UP. Receive 1 (or X) gold in Mexico City for every Catholic city you own (or other Latin American countries own) AND receive 1 hammer in each Catholic city you have; all this regardless of state religion. Mexico is the 2nd most populous Catholic country in the world (after Brazil), and this shrine is in fact visited by many Latin Americans, and this would nicely represent all that .

That's a good option as well.

I'd be glad to help with anything you need (I can't code, though haha). I think that a new scenario for that time period is badly needed now!

As you might have guessed, coding it all is the most time-consuming part

Tonight I'll post a map with a proposal with correct city names, because they're currently terrible, and resource placement.

For which area?

 

[alpav]

For Canada can you not import the civ from ROM. It has Sir John A. as a leader, Mountie that replaces the cavalry unit and a Hockey rink that I think replaces an ampitheatre. Also I like these ideas very much. They're awesome

 

[J. pride]

Well, I don't know either, but I know that tampering with the diplomacy options is no child's play. It'll certainly involve some AI changes, so I don't know if this approach is really worth the effort.

I know that this would be quite "quite" revolutionary but where exactly will these changes need to take place (in python, DLL or somewhere else?). And is there a way to going around this by coding in more discreet ways. For example, instead of adding a new vassalization option and messing with diplo, maybe there's is a way to code this for example (with Canada) by using two scripts one that gives a 50% penalty of Canada's wealth if it is vassalized and one that gives Britain an amount similar to this as a bonus if it (or any other euro civ) is the master. As far as resources are concerned maybe there is a way to force Canada (Brazil, US etc) to gift all of their strategic and luxury resources to home nation. Another option for wealth would be to force the country to pay x amount per turn by using the existing diplo.

As you can see, I am hopelessly lost as to how this would be implemented but if there are other ways to acheive this goal I would request that you should consider pursuing it as I truly believe that implementing this idea would get rid of 90% of the problem associated with adding post colonial civs and make the late game a whole lot better! I would also like that you possibly look into the possibility of adding the colonial vassals system if you think you can reasonably pull it off and it would be worth the effort.

Now as far as the second version of my plan is concerned; there arent any problems there? because I am under the impression that most of that can be coded into python (like spawning armies when independence is declared or coding the independence of vassal if they research certian techs)?

J Pride, agreed on the fighting option, but Canada and Australia never had (to date) more population, economic output or military strength than the UK and they managed independence anyhow. The discover x technology option is more adequate, I'd say, for them. Having different requirements for independence for different civs could be the best option, if it's not too difficult to code.

Sorry I might have worded this wrong but the idea was to represent that the colonies are large enough and self sufficient to a point where they could be granted autonomy. Imagine if Canada had a population of 1 million as opposed to 7million in 1900; that might have made the British change their minds about giving rights to a meagre few people. Now I agree that I might have asked a bit too much when I asked that they have an economy and pop be bigger than England. So I revised it a bit; (for example, Canada):

-Research Constitution, Nationalism and Democracy ( or any other techs which fit the timeperiod and are historic.

-Have atleast one city with a population of more than 4 in each of the following regions:
British Columbia
Alberta
Ontario
Quebec
Eastern Canada

-Have a population of x (I am not familiar with the population algorithim so I dont know what would be accomplishable yet challanging).

-Have a Gdp of x; or conversely control x amount of resources ( or anything else that demonstrates economy and economic sustainability).

 

[IrishDragon]

Would Canada flip the French cities that are usually in the area?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Iirc Trudeau is the only Canadian LH around here (quite surprising if you ask me). I also think Canada should definitely have a resource (oil and fur) related goal, as well as something representing their peacekeeping efforts (afaik they are the nation that's involved in most UN missions over history). Maybe being elected secretary general for a certain amount of times?

Actually Wyz_sub10, the author of Civ Gold is Canadian, so at least 5 LHs Canadian LHs exist: MacDonald, King, Pearson, Trudeau, Jean
Here is the link to his separate Canada mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7866

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks!

 

[The Turk]

Two questions/suggestions:

1. Why did you change Jimmu's name to "Kammu"??

2. The Thai UP should be: "+2 relations with European civilizations". That would be quite good, considering the usage of Thailand (Siam) as a Buffer State).

Also I support the inclusion of Canada! Its been a long time coming, that Canada be included, since it always gets messy up there between the British and Americans, who end up making North America look ugly...

 

[AOS9001]

Byzantium still doesn't spawn when Greece is under Roman control. I'm going to see if it spawns when Greece is alive, and Rome doesn't control the area... it's possible some code might have gotten messed up, I guess.

Edit: No Byzantium playing as Greece. I guess the only way to play them on 3000 BC is to select them from the list, including horrible AI city-placement and all that other good stuff.

 

[Leoreth]

Two questions/suggestions:

1. Why did you change Jimmu's name to "Kammu"??

2. The Thai UP should be: "+2 relations with European civilizations". That would be quite good, considering the usage of Thailand (Siam) as a Buffer State).

Also I support the inclusion of Canada! Its been a long time coming, that Canada be included, since it always gets messy up there between the British and Americans, who end up making North America look ugly...

1) Because Emperor Jimmu is now off the timeframe with the new 550 AD spawn.
2) Considered that, but I thought it's better if you have to do something for your diplomacy bonus first. Building an embassy isn't too much work, and sometimes you even get one from the AI.

Byzantium still doesn't spawn when Greece is under Roman control. I'm going to see if it spawns when Greece is alive, and Rome doesn't control the area... it's possible some code might have gotten messed up, I guess.

Edit: No Byzantium playing as Greece. I guess the only way to play them on 3000 BC is to select them from the list, including horrible AI city-placement and all that other good stuff.

Haven't addressed that yet.

 

[AOS9001]

Haven't addressed that yet.

Alright, understood. But I'm not gonna let you forget, either.

 

[Leoreth]

That's probably for the better

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Speaking of things that shouldn't be forgotten, I encountered another version of my issue with Arabia (checking off "control Spain" with only one city). As Germany, I got "control Rome" despite only having Venice while France had Rome and (later) Naples.

 

[Leoreth]

That's WAI according to how Rhye implemented it (you only need to have more cities than the civ who owns the core, and since Rome/Italy is dead that goal is fulfilled by only owning one city). I agree that this could be harder, though.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

That's WAI according to how Rhye implemented it (you only need to have more cities than the civ who owns the core, and since Rome/Italy is dead that goal is fulfilled by only owning one city). I agree that this could be harder, though.

Oh. I guess the issue will pretty much resolve itself once Italy is implemented as a full civ, then.

 

[Leoreth]

Byzantium still doesn't spawn when Greece is under Roman control. I'm going to see if it spawns when Greece is alive, and Rome doesn't control the area... it's possible some code might have gotten messed up, I guess.

Edit: No Byzantium playing as Greece. I guess the only way to play them on 3000 BC is to select them from the list, including horrible AI city-placement and all that other good stuff.

There was indeed something wrong with the code (was an actual syntax error so I'm surprised the interpreter didn't detect it). I've also increased the scope in which a Roman city needs to be found to all of Byzantium's core.

 

[AOS9001]

There was indeed something wrong with the code (was an actual syntax error so I'm surprised the interpreter didn't detect it). I've also increased the scope in which a Roman city needs to be found to all of Byzantium's core.

Excellent, I'll be waiting for the update that includes it.

 

[ozqar]

About the map I said I was going to post, I meant a map of Mexico with a proposal with better/correct city names and a couple of extra resources (the iron and horse I mentioned). This because with the way the cities are right now, they are most quite misplaced. But I had a big problem when trying to set names for Texas, Arizona, and so on; I wanted to focus on cities that were actually founded by mexico or spain, but I found that there aren't enough!!!! those places were indeed incredibly empty.
What's the policy in these cases? to just use the american names?

I also wanted to ask, is it possible to add/remove land tiles? I'm asking because having a one tile bridge between the mexico city area and the yucatan peninsula area (I think there's a rock on it) troubles me, same for the one tile of jungle that sprouts out on the gulf of mexico, near where the border between USA & Mexico is. When I play the Aztecs I always add and remove those two tiles, and the map looks much more "natural". So, is this possible or is totally out of the question??