Do you think there are - on average - intellectual differences between men and women

[Hitro]

On average means on average. It doesn't mean it applies to the comparison of every random man to every random woman.

Noone will deny that there are differences in physical attributes. The basic gender differences aside that also applies to height, weight, strength and others.

Many people also argue that there are emotional differences, but that shall not be the topic here.

My controversial question is, considering that there are undeniably physical differences, also in relation to abilities (strength et al), is it really so outrageous to presume the same could apply - in any direction - to intellectual (or cognitive) abilities?

Wait. Pole.

 

[Godwynn]

Pole.

There is one! Get him! Jetzt!

 

[PeteAtoms]

My controversial question is, considering that there are undeniably physical differences, also in relation to abilities (strength et al), is it really so outrageous to presume the same could apply - in any direction - to intellectual (or cognitive) abilities?

That is something that I have wondered for a long time. But my psychology teacher says that the only difference is that women's brains develop earlier while boys' brains will catch up a little later on. But I don't really trust her on the issue...she's a hardcore liberal feminist, so i take her view as biased.

This would be a good question for the "ask a neuro-scientist" thread i saw here not too long ago.

 

[Godwynn]

I've always heard men were batter at mathematics, while women were better at grammar.

I honestly don't know/care either way.

 

[puglover]

How on Earth would I know?

Seriously, how can we make any objective statements about an entire 50% of the world's population? Even if we were researchers, it's pretty sketchy.

 

[Earthling]

Pretty scant OP - that's what you get when staring a bunch of of poles at once. This can get to be a quite heated question if people aren't clear where they stand (and of course even if everyone is someone could still be a senseless bigot).

So, first I'd say that there is no doubt that there are no doubt some differences in achievement (and different measures of intelligence in different studies) between men and women. This can be very misleading though - because that statement doesn't necessarily reflect Biological differences. I think studies have shown things like women are much more open with emotions (I'm being general here, not trying to antagonize someone if you need specifc results, but this one's kind of obvious). So that or a related difference exists right there. However, the really tricky part is separating whether this is biological or a result of society's pressure - women just grow up being encourage to be more emotional (or men less so, or something) and that's what the psychologists find.

Both because it is so very un-PC and there's little reliable evidence I wouldn't say there are general intelligence differences between men and women (the most common one that I think is reasonable, but still hesitate, is the difference between men's spatial aptitude versus women's verbal - something like math versus language). As children, there are also certain developmental differences but by adulthood things seem to even out. The one hypothesis that I still stick behind and think still is a clear difference between men and women is something like the "steepness of the bell curve" if you can picture that. Men seem to be subject to more extremes (not just intelligence, but other mental conditions) as there are very clearly many disorders (like autism) much more prevalent in men - at the same time there might be more male savants with extreme characteristics on the other end. For the vast majority of the population, still, this doesn't change anything or give anyone any right to pick on others, and even these statements are not 100% and are still a matter of ongoing research (for instance, as we all know with the story of Larry Summers, I think).

 

[Hitro]

The one hypothesis that I still stick behind and think still is a clear difference between men and women is something like the "steepness of the bell curve" if you can picture that. Men seem to be subject to more extremes (not just intelligence, but other mental conditions) as there are very clearly many disorders (like autism) much more prevalent in men - at the same time there might be more male savants with extreme characteristics on the other end. For the vast majority of the population, still, this doesn't change anything or give anyone any right to pick on others, and even these statements are not 100% and are still a matter of ongoing research (for instance, as we all know with the story of Larry Summers, I think).

Why do you stick behind that hypothesis?

 

[Narz]

Men are more likely to be geniuses & more likely to be idiots, IIRC.

It's really hard to say, I'd say on average women are slightly smarter.

Edit : I take that back, I'm going to have to go with the "equally smart" option. There are just too many dumbass women out there for me to honestly state that they're smarter. Certainly girls these days are more educated than their male peers but I think this is mainly due to them caring more (not being smarter).

 

[CCRunner]

"equally smart in different ways"- This is said way better than I could of.

In my experience, men are better at memorizing facts (History, Math, etc.) while women are better at concepts (grammar, foreign language, etc.). Obviously though, that won't hold true in every case and I have no hard data to back that statement up. Take this forum for instance: We're pretty much all male and there are a good number of non-native english speakers here.

 

[Earthling]

In response to Hitro: Well, because there are plenty of statistics out there - Autism is a perfect example so that's why I brought it up. It's late so any googling or anything by me would be done tomorrow. Also, its very well documented that students in things like top math/science competitions are overwhelmingly male. So, its not a question of whether men and women are observed with intellectual differences - the question is whether these are biological or culture based. Many people argue (also without many statistics - but its not like any scientist can raise clones for perfect experiments) that our culture just encourages men to do math and women to not, for instance. However, I hardly believe there is any cultural pressure for something like autism - so the reason it's more common in men (or something else, and there are in fact disorders more common in women) is very likely biological.

 

[Arwon]

There's probably not any statistically significant differences across one set of 3 billion people versus another set of 3 billion people. Especially once you account for things liek stereotype threat and socialisation.

I think a more pertinent question might be whether any hypothetical small differences that we might find justify the level of continued inequality in society. To which the answer is, of course, no.

Also:

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

I think men and women are equally stupid.

 

[Hitro]

In response to Hitro: Well, because there are plenty of statistics out there - Autism is a perfect example so that's why I brought it up. It's late so any googling or anything by me would be done tomorrow. Also, its very well documented that students in things like top math/science competitions are overwhelmingly male. So, its not a question of whether men and women are observed with intellectual differences - the question is whether these are biological or culture based. Many people argue (also without many statistics - but its not like any scientist can raise clones for perfect experiments) that our culture just encourages men to do math and women to not, for instance. However, I hardly believe there is any cultural pressure for something like autism - so the reason it's more common in men (or something else, and there are in fact disorders more common in women) is very likely biological.

But autism doesn't equal intelligence. Most contemporary research suggests that autists are on average not more intelligent than non-autists. With specific forms like aspergers it might be a little different.

 

[Earthling]

Yeah, but I'm not trying to assume a simplistic view of "general intelligence" in the first place. The point there is that men tend to be more susceptible to some extremes of intelligence or behavior (or use something like mental characteristics). There are some flat out things like mental retardation/schizophrenia that also differ greatly between genders. Taken as a whole, and on a societal level, I would say that these are statistically significant differences, that stem from biology, influencing "intelligence" or if you'd rather me just put it at "behavior" (after all - would women being supposedly more emotional count as intelligence - if you just want to talk specifically about math/language/academics thats ok but its not clear from the thread so far).

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Yes, obviously.

How on Earth would I know?

Seriously, how can we make any objective statements about an entire 50% of the world's population? Even if we were researchers, it's pretty sketchy.

Imagine rolling 30 normal six-sided dice. The average sum is 105, which is fairly close to 100. (No amount of six-sided dice have an average roll of exactly 100.)

Now imagine rolling 30 six-sided dice twice. Do you think it's likely that you'll get 105 both times, or even the same sum both times? I don't. With 50% of the world's population under consideration and greater individual variance, the probability that both sides will have the same average is even more vanishingly minuscule.

So:

Do you think there are on average differences?
* Yes, men are on average "smarter"
* Yes, women are on average "smarter"
* Yes, there are basic differences but they only make them "equally smart in different ways"
* No, on average the intellectual abilities of the two genders are exactly the same

Other: Yes, one is on average "smarter" but I don't know which.

 

[Hitro]

Now imagine rolling 30 six-sided dice twice. Do you think it's likely that you'll get 105 both times, or even the same sum both times? I don't. With 50% of the world's population under consideration and greater individual variance, the probability that both sides will have the same average is even more vanishingly minuscule.

If you roll 3 billion dice twice you will get almost exactly the same number.

 

[Dachs]

If you roll 3 billion dice twice you will get almost exactly the same number.

Since intelligence is normally distributed, and there is a ratio of 1.01 males to every female, there will be a ratio of 1.01 male geniuses to every female genius, and 1.01 male idiots for every female idiot...

 

[Hitro]

Since intelligence is normally distributed, and there is a ratio of 1.01 males to every female, there will be a ratio of 1.01 male geniuses to every female genius, and 1.01 male idiots for every female idiot...

Which changes what I said how?

 

[Dachs]

Which changes what I said how?

It doesn't, it's a reinforcer.

 

[Bill3000]

When you're talking IQ (which isn't necessarily a real intellectual measure, I know) there's a 4 point spread between men and women; men are the higher of the two, predictably.