DoC Alternate History modmod Brainstorming Thread

[mrrandomplayer]

Actually, since this a separate modmod from DoC, is this actually standalone?

As in can we have both chocolate DoC and this installed at the same time?

If so, it might be a fun idea to include scenario specific units like the gyrocopters and tesla soldiers.

It's standalone, so that could be a possibility.

 

[baseballpie]

tesla soldiers.

That just made my day.

 

[awesome]

The starting point would be that Zheng Ho discovers America and the Ming a Emperor (as well as the Japanese and Korean emperors) send colonists over. They would wipe out the natives, and by 1600, the Pacific Coast would be dotted with colonies with the Atlantic Seaboard still empty (even the Caribbean).

i could actually see some pretty powerful native empires coming about if this was the case. the chinese disinterest in moving too far east would mean that manifest destiny wouldn't be an issue, but the new weapons would still make it that way. there would definitely still be nomadic tribes like in real life, but there were also many groups that settled down after contact and some that were already settled. the pueblo, for example, already had their cliff dwellings. and the shoshone, like a lot of other groups, at least had seasonal villages, which would probably turn into permanent ones if they had the new technology and didn't get harassed by colonists.
so yeah, some native civilizations might be a good idea.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

i could actually see some pretty powerful native empires coming about if this was the case. the chinese disinterest in moving too far east would mean that manifest destiny wouldn't be an issue, but the new weapons would still make it that way. there would definitely still be nomadic tribes like in real life, but there were also many groups that settled down after contact and some that were already settled. the pueblo, for example, already had their cliff dwellings. and the shoshone, like a lot of other groups, at least had seasonal villages, which would probably turn into permanent ones if they had the new technology and didn't get harassed by colonists.
so yeah, some native civilizations might be a good idea.

OK, I need to clear some things up with some of these misconceptions here.
While it's true anything can generally go in an alt-hist scenario, they must have a logical base and the PoD (Point of Divergence) will dictate the appropriate logic for the scenario.
The farther back you go, the crazier you can get, but if the PoD is Zheng He's treasure fleet, I'll demonstrate what works and what doesn't.

Japan would be hard-pressed to colonize for one particular reason.
Modern Japanese naval doctrine is very efficient and was one of the reasons why they held dominance over the Pacific in the Second World War, and to an extent, in the periods preceding, when they destroyed the nascent Beiyang Fleet and the Russian fleets in the First Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War respectively.
Japanese naval doctrine at the time of the PoD was very weak in comparison to their later strength.
Because Japanese tactics favored boarding actions for CQC and limiting most naval vessels as a method of personnel delivery,
they were vulnerable to vessels that were more specialized in ship-to-ship engagement as illustrated during the Imjin Wars.
We have fewer instances to go by during the relevant time period which is around 1400, almost 200 years before the time of the Imjin Wars.
If you go even farther back, Japanese naval doctrine appears almost unchanged as well, with the Battle of Baekgang being the clearest case.
It doesn't make sense that the Japanese emperor would send out the fleet either.
For most of its history, Japan instead has utilized a shogunate method of governance.
The emperor generally fulfills the role of a figurehead; note, generally. There have been instances of governing emperors before.
So that slashes out the "Japanese emperor" sending out a fleet. A shogun sending out a fleet would be more appropriate,
but they would likely fulfill a smaller colonizing role as opposed to China.
Corea is out of the question. They are de facto vassals of the Ming during this period.
However, this doesn't rule out the possibility of Corean sailors or workers in the service of the Ming and Chinese colonies
would most definitely have minorities of Corean colonists if this is the case, represented as probably a 5 or 10% Corean culture in each colony, in game terms.

There is a misconception that China is not aggressive and errs on the passive side.
Reading more in depth about Chinese history will prove otherwise, and various dynasties have indeed waged wars to secure resources or to assert their superiority.
The war between the Han and the Greco-Bactrians of Ferghana was initiated to secure their superior horses. In another notable display of power, Ming marines stormed Kotte and took their king hostage for no other reason other than to "fix their attitude".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming–Kotte_War
Let us examine one of the primary catalysts for the treasure fleets and their voyages.
The profit-minded eunuch faction in the Imperial Court was responsible for them.
Apart from profit, the main purpose of the fleet as outlined with the Ming-Kotte War was to
demonstrate Chinese superiority through force of arms; one of the earliest versions of gunboat diplomacy.

The reason why they stopped OTL (our time line) was because the traditionalist factions (scholar-bureaucrats)
saw them as wasteful and as an abuse of power and a new emperor who sympathized with this outlook agreed with them and essentially decommissioned the fleets.
So it is actually very easy to create motives and conditions for the Ming to colonize.
1) Eunuch faction remaining influential
2) Outward looking emperors, and we already have the basis for one;
who's to say his son can't share the same outlook if we establish this as the PoD?
3) Ming currency was silver based. Silver lodes in the New World would be attractive to the Ming for this purpose.
Part of the reason why the Ming collapsed OTL was due to inflation transmitted via the Spanish Empire.
Ming controlled silver mines could potentially be more regulated or less, for better or worse, but the prospect of silver is a good reason nonetheless.
About native resistance, it is true that China would prefer to rule by proxy wherever it goes,
but China has always had an interest in Sinicizing native peoples not too unlike how Christians have an interest in proselytizing wherever they go, so bear that in mind.
Pair that with a lack of population density and a Chinese controlled West Coast is definitely not out of the cards.

I'm starting to wish that East Asian History should probably be given consideration by public schools as an AP class alongside APUSH,
and APEH in Western countries instead of just being glossed over in APWH.

Just had to speak my peace.

 

[The Diocletian]

-snip-

I agree with you about the lack of Asian knowledge circulating in the American school system. Most people, if they learn anything, get a sense of European superiority in history, which is simply not the case. The only time I recall learning about East Asia in school was the period leading up to the Communist revolution in China, and select periods during the Cold War, leading to my general ignorance of Asian culture. And it's rather a shame too, because for a people who were, for a great majority of human history, the most advanced civilizations of the world, I know precious little about them.

TD, how are you so educated in Asian affairs, if you don't mind me asking? I'm doubtful the public school system would teach you all this, assuming you were enrolled in it.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

mrrandomplayer, if you're interested, here are some UUs for the primary nations in my steampunk scenario.

Qurtuban UU:
Humanitarian Hostile Elimination Vessel (HHRV)
Class: Naval Unit
STR: 40
MOV: 6
COST: 240
Requires: Scientific Method
Effects:
Causes a maximum of 85% damage to enemy
Can bombard city defenses (-20%/turn)
May blockade

Anglo-Norman UU:
Gyrocopter
Class: Helicopter Unit
STR: 25
MOV: 4
COST: 170
Requires: Steam Power
Effects:
Cannot capture enemy cities
Doesn't receive defensive bonuses
Flies over terrain
Can withdraw from combat (60% chance)
+30% vs. Armored Units
Flank attack vs. Cannons, Artillery, and Mobile Artillery

Abbasid UU:
Mag-Lev Fortress
Class: Armored Unit
STR: 18
MOV: 4
COST: 200
Requires: Physics, Uranium
Effects:
Cargo Space 4 (carries Land units and fighters)
Flies over terrain
Can bombard city defenses (-16%/turn)

Hallowed Roman UU:
Zeppelin
Class: Armored Unit
STR: 24
MOV: 2
COST: 200
Requires: Physics, Steam Power
Effects:
Cargo Space 2 (carries fighters)
Flies over terrain
Can bombard city defenses (-16%/turn)

Guang UU:
Pen Dian Qi
Class: Gunpowder Unit
STR: 20
MOV: 1
COST: 140
Requires: Electricity, Rifling
Effects: Inflicts collateral damage
Immune to collateral damage from Siege Weapons
+25% vs. Gunpowder units

Srivijayan UU:
Saw Spitter
Class: Gunpowder Unit
STR: 22
MOV: 1
COST: 140
Requires: Steam Power, Rifling
Effects: 1 First Strike
Rolled hits inflict x2 damage against units below 75% health
+25% vs. Gunpowder units

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I agree with you about the lack of Asian knowledge circulating in the American school system. Most people, if they learn anything, get a sense of European superiority in history, which is simply not the case. The only time I recall learning about East Asia in school was the period leading up to the Communist revolution in China, and select periods during the Cold War, leading to my general ignorance of Asian culture. And it's rather a shame too, because for a people who were, for a great majority of human history, the most advanced civilizations of the world, I know precious little about them.

TD, how are you so educated in Asian affairs, if you don't mind me asking? I'm doubtful the public school system would teach you all this, assuming you were enrolled in it.

Well, I actually used to be really apathetic about history.
Probably the defining moment was when one of my English teachers in high school was about to start a module about Chinese culture but used the project to broadcast an anti-Chinese platform and teach it to the class as truth. Fewer than half of the topics on the list she gave us actually pertained to anything regarding Chinese culture at all. And she cited no sources in her sample presentation, which is anathema to actual intellectual discourse.
There was another teacher who told me to my face that she believed that over a billion Chinese women have had their feet bound over the course of history (until the foundation of the Republic of China). Not hyperbole, she literally believed that. Despite the fact that foot binding has been in and out of vogue in alternation throughout Chinese history and that minorities and subgroups like the one I belong to never practiced it; nevermind the fact that there hasn't even been one billion Chinese women total up till the Republic period.
I just encountered enough disrespect and ignorance from many figures in my life who
just didn't even want to bother to correct themselves and view me from their own erroneous framework.
So I did a lot of research and tore apart my teacher's presentation with my own.
My teacher begrudgingly gave me an A on that project which was probably the best part.
And I never really stopped researching afterward, later exploring Corean and Japanese history as well.

So you're absolutely right, Dio.
I had to go very much out of my way to learn about a lot of this stuff.
And even then, it's hard to find. A lot of stuff you need to parse through are like excerpts from college papers
and usually shelved away in some dusty bookshelf, accessible only to students taking Asian Studies.
The average China book in your local Barnes & Noble is all sensationalist drivel that usually isn't the least bit accurate.
Things like The History Channel commodify history and simplify it to pander to the lowest-common denominator
because neither the channel nor the audience is willing to make the intellectual effort to understand.

There are very few Western academics who have an acute understanding of anything China.
Peter Hays Gries and Martin Jacques provide relatively balanced and neutral views and accurate insights on the nature of Chinese politics and culture.
I've found myself agreeing with their criticisms of China because they are coming from an educated understanding of the underlying trappings of Chinese culture.
Everyone else tends to lack that understanding and fall into one of the two extreme ends of a spectrum;
war hawks who would love nothing more than to Balkanize and destabilize China under the thinnest veneer of raw imperialism
and Sinophiles (and more broadly, Asiaphiles) who paint unrealistic views of my culture and are, quite bluntly, very, very creepy.

So you could say that being sick and shocked at the contempt and dearth of understanding I experienced from others towards my culture catalyzed my motivation to learn and educate.

As you could've probably noticed going back through to a number of the old threads on the subforum,
I have very little tolerance for people who want to take the easy way out and just make broad, sweeping generalizations of little substance and even less tolerance
for people who make unsubstantiated claims as a result of my experiences.

I have some blind spots. Sadly, I don't know very much about Indian history and that's probably my biggest blind spot when it comes to Old World cultures.
If I ever say something unsubstantiated, I'd be happy if someone corrected me because I'd hate to ever spread misinformation.

TL;DR: Exposure to racism, laziness, Asian fetishists and ignorance drove me to learn history

If you want to learn about the Asian-American experience, throw out the Amy Tan and Maxine-Hong Kingston.
To be blunt, the crap they've written expressly pander to a white audience and are very inaccurate about Chinese customs and play up the "foreignness" to 11.
It is a sad state of affairs that those writers have spread as much influence as they have.
In with the Eddie Huang and his book Fresh Off The Boat: A Memoir. It's hard to read because he writes how he speaks (in Ebonics)
but it gets down to the real on a lot of first-generation Asian hardships.
Vietnamerica and American Born Chinese (both graphic novels) by GB Tran and Gene Luen Yang respectively are both really legit and I'd give them my highest recommendations.
There is a wealth of Japanese-American literature touching on the hardships of the Japanese internment camps as well that I would suggest as well;
but I want to take the time right now to mostly highlight more contemporary pieces.
You may think, what does Asian-American literature have to do with history?
Well, to understand the history, I feel like you need to have a solid understanding of the underlying culture behind that history. And it's easier to start closer to home.
But you know those teachers I mentioned in my first paragraph?
Woman Warrior and Joy Luck Club are still required reading books in many school curriculums including my old high school.
It's not hard to put two and two together and see how people develop these negative,
unsubstantiated stereotypes as a result when books like these are accepted into the mainstream.

If you want to learn Asian history proper, start with translations of Chinese history compendiums.
The Chinese were very good at keeping records and it very much enriches those who would like to learn Chinese history.
The Shiji/Records of the Grand Historian, if you can find a translation, is a great place to start.
Use university documents, papers and publications whenever possible.
Avoid books at the bookstore.

Off the top of my head, and I cannot stress this enough, if you want to learn Japanese history, avoid Stephen Turnbull at all costs.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

snip

My tongue slipped when I said emperor for Japan, the Emperor was a powerless ceremonial feature early on, but I can't remember exactly when. When I said that Korea would explore, I knew that the Ming had some influence (the tribute system) but not that much. Then again, most of my Korean history was taught to me by Koreans who wouldn't dare say Korea was a powerless Ming vassal. I wish I could know more about Asian history, but I am plagued by a lack of resources available to me. Again, it's all 20th century stuff, not the history I was looking for. When I looked for Korean history (I'll explain in a bit why I want to learn a lot of Korean history), over half of the things I found were on the Korean War. I wish there was an Asian History class besides the very broad AP World, and my high school is actually considering making an Asian History class.

The main reason that I want to learn a lot of Korean history is that I went there once with the American Boychoir School (my last tour there) to Daejon (as part of a performing arts festival) and Seoul (because we have some students from Seoul whose parents arranged stuff). I felt so ignorant, but I also fell in love with the country, so after getting back, I tried to find a lot of reading on Korea, but it was very hard as well as adjusting to high school several days late. Basically, that's why. I apologize for my ignorance, and I wish I could learn more.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Joseon was most definitely reliant on the Ming for a majority of its history.
Your friends wouldn't be wrong with other Corean time periods though, such as Goguryeo, which thwarted Sui China many times on the battlefield,
and survived against the concert of Tang and Silla admirably until it could hold no more.
And it's fine. Compare my experience with yours and it's clear that in both cases,
it's definitely clear that there is a complete dearth of easily accessible resources on East Asia in this country, both on my coast and yours.
It's kind of maddening, especially when taking into consideration that America's attention and economy is increasingly turning
West over the Pacific instead of East over to Europe, more and more so in the coming years, but there is still so much resistance
to making the effort for learning about people that derive from a Sinic legacy as opposed to a Greco-Roman and Abrahamic legacy.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Now the mod doesn't crash and it lets me play as Venice, I just need to ask Leoreth about configuring the UP and one or two other things...

After that, I want to incorporate a few modcomps, then get started on Tomorrow's Dawn's althist idea.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Setting Venice's starting size at 7 is a bit of a disadvantage for Venice.
If I were you, I'd start them at least Size 9, similarly to Amsterdam.

Other than that, I'm ready whenever you are.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Setting Venice's starting size at 7 is a bit of a disadvantage for Venice.
If I were you, I'd start them at least Size 9, similarly to Amsterdam.

Other than that, I'm ready whenever you are.

It starts at size 4, but it spawns in 700 AD so it has plenty of time to grow.

For now, I'd like to discuss the bigger picture until I work out the bugs in Venice. What civs and units are we going to use for the map? I'm in favor of simply getting alternate skins instead of making entirely new units for most of the steampunk units,

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

mrrandomplayer, how's this?

Major Players:
Caliphate of Qurtuba - Moors
Abbasid Caliphate - Arabia
Hallowed Roman Empire - Prussia
United Kingdom of Franco-Normandy - France
Guang Dynasty China - China
Srivijaya Federation - Indonesia

Minor Players:
Eirish Emirate - Celtic slot
Kipchak Khaganate - Mongolia slot
Slavistan - Russia slot
Islamic Tibetan Horde - Tibet slot
Songhai-Hausa Union - Mali slot
Nordheim - Viking slot
Kingdom of Hungary - HRE slot
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - Poland slot
Kingdom of Gujarat - Mughal slot
Kingdom of Orissa - India slot
Travancore - Tamil slot
Luba Empire - Kongo slot
Burma - Khmer slot
Champa - Thai slot
Aztlan - Aztec slot
Mayapan - Maya slot
Kingdom of Aymara - Inca slot
Cahokian Empire (controls Sioux & Haudenosaunee Homeland States)- Native slot
Chinese Vassal Leader (controls Outer Mongolia, Kham, Goryeo, Honshu & Hokkaido) - Corea slot
Arabian Vassal Leader (controls Central Asia and East Africa) - Ottoman slot

States on the map to be represented by Independents:
Odland Lawless Zone
Basque Republic
Switzerland
Italian City-States
Kievan Rus
Finland
Kanem Kingdom
East African states
Central Asian states
Ayuthayya
Afuhan

Disabled Respawns (unless granted independence):
Rome
Greece
Phoenicia
Egypt
Babylon
Persia
England
Japan
Italy

Outright removed from scenario:
Brazil
Mexico
Iran
Dutch
Portugal
Argentina
Colombia
Seljuks
America
Byzantines

 

[mrrandomplayer]

A few points:

I think Italy should be used for the Italian City-States. My Italian sentiment compels me to say that. Also unless the Champa are more important regionally than Aytthaya, shouldn't the Thai be used for Ayutthaya? Ethiopia could be used for the Eastern African states. Also, unless we don't want Ireland to be playable, we should use England's spot for it. Besides that, it looks good.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

A few points:

I think Italy should be used for the Italian City-States. My Italian sentiment compels me to say that.

Hahaha, I suppose it won't be too bad to have it then. By all means.

Also unless the Champa are more important regionally than Aytthaya, shouldn't the Thai be used for Ayutthaya?

No. Ayutthaya has collapsed and splintered into warlordism and Champa in the scenario is ready to take advantage of that.

Ethiopia could be used for the Eastern African states.

If you look on the map, Arabia is the master of the East African states;
hence why they are a part of Arabian Vassal Leader.
Both the Chinese & Arabian Vassal Leader's function is to control all of the master's vassal territory in unison while cutting down on the number of civs needed for each of them.

Also, unless we don't want Ireland to be playable, we should use England's spot for it. Besides that, it looks good.

Make the Celtic slot playable. There is one available already.
England should not respawn for this scenario, unless someone captures Scotland or England and liberates them from the HRE or Franco-Normandy.

Also, I have some ideas on distinct differences from the big civs and the little/medium civs.
The victories could be based on bloc. And I'll post a couple ideas in a second.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Major Player Victories:

Islamic UV (for Caliphate of Qurtuba & Abbasid Caliphate):
-Ensure the Hallowed Roman & Franco-Norman cores are occupied by either Qurtuba or Abbasids.
-Ensure the Masjid al-Haram hits a shrine income of 50GPT (Let's remove the Shrine income cap)
-Complete the Apollo Program & steal a total of 1000 Gold via Spies.

Christian UV (for Hallowed Roman Empire & Kingdom of Franco-Normandy):
-Collapse the Caliphate of Qurtuba and the Abbasid Caliphate
-Spread Christianity to 50%
-Have a Kill-Death ratio of 4:1 by 1850

Secular UV (for Guang Dynasty China & Srivijaya Federation):
-Mediate 3 peace treaties between warring parties not involving yourself.
-Ensure half of all civilizations run no state religion
-Complete The Internet & experience 3 Golden Ages.

Three Kingdoms Period India UV (for Kingdom of Gujarat, Orissa & Travancore):
-Grow your capital to size 20 by 1600
-Make half of all civilizations Pleased and at least 2 Friendly without switching your religion
-Unite the Indian subcontinent by 1760

Minor Civilization Unique Victories (WIP):

Islamic Tibetan Horde UV:
-Collapse Arabian Vassal Leader
-Capture Chang'an & Afuhan by 1800
-Gain one city with sea access within 20 tiles of Lasa

Ethiopian Empire UV:
-Successfully demand Tribute from AIs at least 5 times by 1760
-Successfully orchestrate war between two foreign parties at least 2 times by 1800
-Steal 4 technologies by 1820

Cahokian Empire UV:
-Secure 2 Corn, 2 Tobacco, 2 Gold, 2 Iron & 2 Coal resources.
-Total of all city defenses must exceed 800% by 1820
-Ensure no colonies in North America by 1850

Eirish Emirate UV:
-Connect Virginia & Eirish Guiana by railroad.
-Conquer 4 Franco-Norman or Hallowed Roman colonies.
-Have an Approval Rating greater than 75% by 1780

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Major Player Victories:

Islamic UV (for Caliphate of Qurtuba & Abbasid Caliphate):
-Ensure the Hallowed Roman & Franco-Norman cores are occupied by either Qurtuba or Abbasids.
-Ensure the Masjid al-Haram hits a shrine income of 50GPT (Let's remove the Shrine income cap)
-Complete the Apollo Program & steal a total of 1000 Gold via Spies.

Christian UV (for Hallowed Roman Empire & Kingdom of Franco-Normandy):
-Collapse the Caliphate of Qurtuba and the Abbasid Caliphate
-Spread Christianity to 50%
-Have a Kill-Death ratio of 4:1 by 1850

Secular UV (for Guang Dynasty China & Srivijaya Federation):
-Mediate 3 peace treaties between warring parties not involving yourself.
-Ensure half of all civilizations run no state religion
-Complete The Internet & experience 3 Golden Ages.

Three Kingdoms Period India UV (for Kingdom of Gujarat, Orissa & Travancore):
-Grow your capital to size 20 by 1600
-Make half of all civilizations Pleased and at least 2 Friendly without switching your religion
-Unite the Indian subcontinent by 1760

Minor Civilization Unique Victories (WIP):

Islamic Tibetan Horde UV:
-Collapse Arabian Vassal Leader
-Capture Chang'an & Afuhan by 1800
-Gain one city with sea access within 20 tiles of Lasa

Ethiopian Empire UV:
-Successfully demand Tribute from AIs at least 5 times by 1760
-Successfully orchestrate war between two foreign parties at least 2 times by 1800
-Steal 4 technologies by 1820

Cahokian Empire UV:
-Secure 2 Corn, 2 Tobacco, 2 Gold, 2 Iron & 2 Coal resources.
-Total of all city defenses must exceed 800% by 1820
-Ensure no colonies in North America by 1850

Eirish Emirate UV:
-Connect Virginia & Eirish Guiana by railroad.
-Conquer 4 Franco-Norman or Hallowed Roman colonies.
-Have an Approval Rating greater than 75% by 1780

Interesting... maybe they could be a hidden UHV only enabled and displayed for the AltHist scenario?

As far as debugging is going, I only have a handful of problems. They are:
-Get the flag to work.
-Get the UP to work (I think the reason why it isn't working is that Venice is a respawn civ, I'll have to ask Leo about that when he gets back to DoC).
-Get the UHV display/checking to work.
-Fix the city ruin bug for the first few turns.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Great news everyone! I've fixed nearly every bug (too lazy to fix the flag or city ruin bug) and I've uploaded a new version on Sourceforge. To commemorate, I will start a new IAAR/Realpolitik as one of 3 modmod civs and I will also make a new thread since nobody follows this thread anymore.

Celebrate!

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Seeing as this was just a brainstorming thread, I suppose a new thread may be in order.
Make sure to link the image of the scenario map (via my deviantART) to the new thread when we develop the scenario.

Aside from that, given my scenario's radically different civilizations and landscapes,
have you thought about how you are going to edit stability and war maps?

 

[ales_]

What are the 3 modmod civs?