Abaddon
Deity
An I think a lot place themselves within a religious bracket because they were brought up that way. I could imagine a real crash soon as less children are brought up in a religious household.
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Does (The Christian) God have Limited Power?
- Thread starter Abaddon
- Start date
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Because he didn't create us. We were "created" by the random processes inherent in evolution, that is a fact.
Well, there are two ways in which logic can fail to convince someone:
- there are subconscious urges (inherent to the organism (in animals, these would be due to natural selection)) that over-ride the ability to retain the complete logic at the same time. The urges would alter the priority of each premise so that each premise could not be built into a true logical whole.
- the organism is limited in its ability to understand the world. This will naturally happen in biological organisms, because our ability to represent the universe (within our minds) is less than what's required to have a true conception of reality. For this reason, an organism might be mistaken regarding specific premises.
So, the atheist's logic might be flawless, but merely mistaken on aspects of reality. Or, the atheist might have flawless premises, but unable to properly prioritise them due to subconscious biases. So, for god to create an atheist with flawless logic, God would simply have to create an incomplete organism, an organism naturally flawed and limited. It would have to be intentional, however. At that stage, the logic could not (itself) be refuted without changing the nature of the atheist from that of a biological organism.
Now, we can assume that Satan used logic to conclude that God was actually truly God (and not merely a god). I do not know if God created Satan with subconscious (and flawed) urges designed to override common sense, or if God knowingly made Satan stupid enough that he could not perceive enough of reality to decisively conclude that God was (in fact) God. But we do know that God did not properly refute the logic, by properly creating Satan in the first place. Potentially, this is because that God cannot do so.
NickyJ
Retired Narrator
That is definitely not a fact. Definitely, absolutely not a fact.
Whiskey_Lord
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,163
It is a scientific theory based on a lot of verifiable evidence which has been challenged and tested for about 150 years now without any serious refutation against it. How much more factual do you need it to be?
useless
Social Justice Rogue
but god does not exist
NickyJ
Retired Narrator
GhostWriter16
Deity
Easy answer: Perhaps they get brought back to life prior to receiving their judgement.
Or perhaps they did see Hell. There are people who have claimed this you know (I'm not saying they have, but you don't know.)
I didn't say they weren't, merely that its unlikely in my opinion.
Even if this were a fact (Which I don't accept) God still could have created us through Evolution. And my post in context used God existing as a postulate not needing proof.
No, it's not circular logic. The logic is actually very deep, and very rigorous. Teaching people that evolutionary theory is built upon circular logic is only done so that people can more easily fail to understand the actual theory.
Well, evolution only tells us the process. There's no reason why it couldn't be guided, if God existed. Amusing questions rise up, though. Like, why did he make us related to pigs and cows, but only forbid us from eating pigs? Or, why did he evolve us to find lobster delicious AND why did he evolve lobsters to be delicious and nutritious? I mean, I can see the evolution of lobster, but why evolve humankind to find lobster tasty?
And why make them nutritious!?! Heck, why did He make the consumption of 'abominable' seafood an essential part of our evolution? There's no reason why 'abominable' food has to be tasty? If it's so 'abominable', why not just make it gross!?! Heck, we don't eat poison ivy!
Well, evolution only tells us the process. There's no reason why it couldn't be guided, if God existed. Amusing questions rise up, though. Like, why did he make us related to pigs and cows, but only forbid us from eating pigs? Or, why did he evolve us to find lobster delicious AND why did he evolve lobsters to be delicious and nutritious? I mean, I can see the evolution of lobster, but why evolve humankind to find lobster tasty?
And why make them nutritious!?! Heck, why did He make the consumption of 'abominable' seafood an essential part of our evolution? There's no reason why 'abominable' food has to be tasty? If it's so 'abominable', why not just make it gross!?! Heck, we don't eat poison ivy!
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Evidence please. You see we have whole mountains of evidence for evolution (including that of humaninty), from the fossil record, through DNA to actual observation of organisms evolving both in the lab and in the wild.
What have your side got? Oh, yeah a discredited charlatan, and a book wrote 2,500 years ago by some people who neither knew the history of their people, nor had any concept of science.
Yeah I'll be sticking with my side in this current debate, seeing as it has everything going for it, and your side doesn't have even the beginnings of a rebuttal.
Edit
El-Machinae: The most important question of all, "What the hell is he doing now if he designed a system that doesn't need him?" for clearly that is what evolution is.GhostWriter16
Deity
@Brian- Even assuming Evolution, this is an assumption. We still don't know that God isn't sustaining the process and was the entire time.
Behind The Mask
King
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2010
- Messages
- 776
Thats one hell of an assumption you got.
What makes it more valid then evolution? Just asking.
Edit
Well, lots of people suggest that it's impossible to prove that God exists. Atlas14 might have had the insight. God created a logical argument so good that it refuted His own belief (on a logical basis), and then couldn't re-prove His own existence empirically, because that's (apparently) impossible.
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Don't have to assume evolution, we have mountains of evidence. That's the beauty of science, it does it's best to destroy any hypothesis that comes along, and only accepts those which have overwhelming (at the time) evidence for them.
Religion on the other hand assumes everything. Otherwise why the parable of Doubting Thomas or "Blessed is he so does not see yet believes..." (I forget exactly which promise). The whole basis of the Abrahamic religions (and their pagan predecessors as far as we can identify) is for people to not question the words of their leaders. Surely you can see why that is a bad place to start from.
Abaddon
Deity
I love how the only way they can answer back is in vague, illogical ways.. often missing out quoting our slam dunks on purpose!
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Oh but you are going to have to explain how this is circular reasoning. Especially focus on how finding fossils in a certain parts of geological layers is considered reasoning instead of acquiring tangible evidence to support reasoning.
Circular reasoning isn't the greatest proof that ever existed. /Off topic.
And you never answered whether you believe in Alien Abductions.
azzaman333
meh
Depends on whether something that doesn't exist can have limited power.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I actually was only assuming to avoid an argument, since I don't care to try to argue against Evolution. So my point was, even if that's true, God still could have created the process in the first place. And we really don't know, even assuming that, that God isn't actually GUIDING the process.
That was basically my point, that you can't disprove God's existence.
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Can't prove it either, and even though we don't have conclusive evidence either way, it is persuasively suggestive of a universe that at the very least needs no deity to work.
warpus
In pork I trust
Why do you say that though? Because it's impossible to prove that something that doesn't exist exists, or another reason?
