Dutch authorities sue parents of 13 year-old to stop solo sail trip around the world

[Shadylookin]

I love how the government admits this isn't breaking any laws. Then says (well there should be), and just pretends there is...

There's probably no "you can't sail around the world until you're X years old" laws, but I'm guessing they're generic laws against child endangerment and truancy from school laws.

For what it's worth what would everyones opinion be if instead of taking 2 years off from school to sail around the world she instead wanted to take 2 years off and lets say play World of Warcraft? Lets assume she made the same promise to do her homework and there was the same ability to make sure she followed through on that promise. Since it's 2009 and not 1709 and using a sail boat is basically a personal hobby akin to video games.

I guess what I'm getting at is do people who think she should be allowed to go think any child with a personal hobby should be allowed to take leave from school for so long? Lets assume the hobby in question isn't any more harm inflicting/dangerous than sail boating around the world.

 

[crabapple]

There's probably no "you can't sail around the world until you're X years old" laws, but I'm guessing they're generic laws against child endangerment and truancy from school laws.

For what it's worth what would everyones opinion be if instead of taking 2 years off from school to sail around the world she instead wanted to take 2 years off and lets say play World of Warcraft? Lets assume she made the same promise to do her homework and there was the same ability to make sure she followed through on that promise. Since it's 2009 and not 1709 and using a sail boat is basically a personal hobby akin to video games.

I guess what I'm getting at is do people who think she should be allowed to go think any child with a personal hobby should be allowed to take leave from school for so long? Lets assume the hobby in question isn't any more harm inflicting/dangerous than sail boating around the world.

eh you dont learn anything if you play wow.. but you learn something from travelling around the world, so no i wouldnt let the child get off to play wow, but i would let child off to sail , becouse she will get experience

 

[Shadylookin]

eh you dont learn anything if you play wow.. but you learn something from travelling around the world, so no i wouldnt let the child get off to play wow, but i would let child off to sail , becouse she will get experience

Well that's a matter of opinion. Social interaction in an online environment is an important thing these days. I think one could make a valid argument how it would be just as much of a learning experience(if not more) as being in the middle of the ocean and stopping into port once and a while.

Anyway where does the line get drawn? How dangerous is the limit, how old should you have to be, and how noble does a cause have to be before it should be allowed? I'm not trying to be a jerk about it since I'm well aware the age of majority, where you're allowed to essentially kill yourself in whatever dumb schemes you can dream of, is just an arbitrary line we've drawn in the sand. However I think the age of majority is at least fair in that we don't reject certain proposals and accept others.

 

[Narz]

Her personal safety is not the only issue, is it?

I thought it was. Oh right, the schooling issue. If she completes her homework & takes tests remotely I don't see the problem. Spending all day on a ship with far fewer distractions that the average student I would be very surprised if she didn't come back far more educated than the average school student catching a nap in Algebra class. Also she'll gain experiential wisdom unavailable in a stuffy classroom.

Anyway all she has to do is wait like 2 years. You're making it out like she's being horribly oppressed or something

But for what? A sixteen year old is going to face the same challenges & runs the same risks (well, potentially worse or better depending on weather patterns). Alot of older posters (usually early-20's it seems) like to act as if all teenagers are retards & incompetent at most everything. Certainly this is the popular image of them but this young lady seems to me to be an exception. If her parents support her & she is proven competent at what she plans to do & is monitored (as is her route for potential hazards) I see no reason she shouldn't be allowed to break the record.

For the cost of all this drama she could have stayed at home, gone to school, got her education done over the next 2 years then sailed round the world when she was 16 like the sensible Brit did above.

She wants to break the age record. The authorities, not her, are creating the drama.

 

[downtown]

There's probably no "you can't sail around the world until you're X years old" laws, but I'm guessing they're generic laws against child endangerment and truancy from school laws.

For what it's worth what would everyones opinion be if instead of taking 2 years off from school to sail around the world she instead wanted to take 2 years off and lets say play World of Warcraft? Lets assume she made the same promise to do her homework and there was the same ability to make sure she followed through on that promise. Since it's 2009 and not 1709 and using a sail boat is basically a personal hobby akin to video games.

I guess what I'm getting at is do people who think she should be allowed to go think any child with a personal hobby should be allowed to take leave from school for so long? Lets assume the hobby in question isn't any more harm inflicting/dangerous than sail boating around the world.

You've basically just described homeschool. If they kid is passing his tests and doing his homework, then there really isn't an issue. If a kid was doing nothing but WOW all day, eventually it would show in his work.

 

[Jazzmail]

You've basically just described homeschool. If they kid is passing his tests and doing his homework, then there really isn't an issue. If a kid was doing nothing but WOW all day, eventually it would show in his work.

It will be very hard now for her parents to convince anyone that the education at school is against their personal beliefs, since the girl already went to school.
That means applying for homeschooling doesn't stand much of a chance.

 

[woody60707]

It will be very hard now for her parents to convince anyone that the education at school is against their personal beliefs, since the girl already went to school.
That means applying for homeschooling doesn't stand much of a chance.

huh? whats that got to do with homeschooling?

You do know homeschooling isn't about fundy religious people, right?

 

[Narz]

It will be very hard now for her parents to convince anyone that the education at school is against their personal beliefs, since the girl already went to school.
That means applying for homeschooling doesn't stand much of a chance.

I don't know how it is in other countries but in the US a child can switch from public schooling to homeschooling & then back again if he/she & his/her parents so chooses.

 

[Jan H]

huh? whats that got to do with homeschooling?

You do know homeschooling isn't about fundy religious people, right?

In the Netherlands it is...
I was looking for some links, but I could only find this one from a somewhat biased source:
http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Netherlands/200402040.asp

 

[Jazzmail]

The basic idea is that professional teachers dedicated to their subject, do a much better job teaching kids, than dropping them off with granny, or for instance put them on a boat alone for a year or two. Schools are held to certain standards.

The exception to the rule is belief and this is an old relic, when catholics only went to catholic schools and protestants X to protestant X schools, Y to Y schools, etc. etc.

 

[IglooDame]

Dammit I've had my too-long-delayed response to this go into the bit bucket three times. Firefox hates me lately...

Based on what I've read, nobody who has posted so far has a clear understanding what singlehanded sailing is all about based on the lack of discussion in that direction.

Wait, wasn't that my line? Fair enough accusation. In my teen years, I consumed books at a pretty good rate. Some of these books included those authored by Joshua Slocum, Dodge Morgan, and Robin Graham (and another about Donald Crowhurst). Some of them I read while sailing on my parents' 25ft sailboat on an upstate NY freshwater lake. I followed the Globe Round-The-World Challenge(s), and got passingly familiar with Sir Francis Chichester, Sir Robin Knox-Johnston, Phillipe Jeantot, Bernard Moitessier, and others. At one point I was even designing and provisioning a boat for solo circumnavigation, not that that was a remotely realistic prospect. I then went to good 'ol Annapolis, based at least a little on the fact that they had big sailboats. I sailed 40-50 footers and the occasional J-24 for my entire four years, logging a few thousand blue-water miles cruising and racing. Post-graduation, I unfortunately got busy driving bigger ships around and didn't get much opportunity to sail small boats, and I've hardly stepped foot on a sailboat in the last decade. :-( But, I would say that I'm still fairly knowledgeable about the requirements and dangers of blue-water solo cruising, at least to the point of claiming a "clear understanding of what singlehanded sailing is all about".

This is an incredibly dangerous endeavor. One shipping container that has fallen overboard from a freighter, tree trunk, or even a pod of curious whales can cause your untimely death, never mind being run over by a commercial ship, or making a navigational error and striking land while you are asleep or preparing your dinner. It happens all the time.

Certainly collisions with ships, flotsam, wildlife, or land do happen, but it isn't particularly common. Does it happen "all the time" to the same relative risk level as airplane crashes or fatal car accidents?

Then there is the issue of rogue waves and weather. While planning your trip to avoid hurricane and monsoon seasons goes a long way towards eliminating the danger, there will always be times when you are at risk of being capsized. The odds of this occurring are inversely proportional to you actual sailing experience under those conditions and the seaworthiness of your vessel. While the latter will likely be exceptional in this particular case, there are always issues of equipment failing and what you can do about it while on the high seas.

Wait, is this an argument against singlehanded cruising or just bluewater sailing in general?

And if you ever fall overboard, forget about it. The odds of you surviving are close to zero even if you are attached by a harness to a jackline. Most people simply don't have the strength to be able to pull themselves back aboard. Every time you leave the cockpit, you are risking your life.

Falling overboard is indeed the most dangerous prospect, but "Every time you leave the cockpit, you are risking your life" seems as overly dramatic to me as saying that every time you cross the street you are risking your life. Technically true, but due care in practice seriously mitigates the risk.

Then there are the psychological aspects. Being completely alone for days on end with no human contact whatsoever while surrounded by thousands of miles of open water is sufficient to drive many people nuts. It would take an incredibly mature and independent 14-year-olf girl to really want to be that isolated from civilization for such long periods of time.

Does "no human contact whatsoever" include talking to people on the radio? Because I'm pretty sure she'll be able to do a lot of that.

If you really want to know what singlehanded sailing actually entails, and why it is completely different than sailing with sufficient crew to stand watches or help in times of emergencies, I suggest you read this most excellent book on the subject:

Singlehanded Sailing: The Experiences and Techniques of the Lone Voyagers

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out sometime although I can predict the reaction my reading it will elicit from my wife...

 

[IglooDame]

And I don't think you really have a notion what singlehanding is all about, much less making a successful circumnavigation of the world with a crew. It is incredibly dangerous comparable to just about any other endeavor which you would try to subect a 14-year-old girl.

Technology still doesn't allow you to not stand a watch, which is by far the greatest problem with singlehanding a sailboat. Autopilots and GPS since 1988 have had little, if any, effect on the dangers of circumnavigating the planet. Here's another excellent book on offshore sailboating written in 1999 which does provide advice on modern GPS and autopilots.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LR...esult&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

To try to claim that technology has caused most of the issues of singlehanding a sailboat to go away is basically absurd. That is how people die by disregarding the actual risks and believing that modern technology has taken all the danger out of it. Most experts will tell you that it is far safer to not have any modern technology at all because it can always fail at worst possible time.

What do you expect her to do if the GPS or the autopilot fails, or if the vessel is dismasted after a blowdown or a rogue wave has struck? She can't very well call daddy to come get her. And long-term forecasts will never be able to spot all the squalls you can run into.

I'd say the odds are slightly in her favor to succeed if she ever actually does it. But just barely. There are just far too many things which can go wrong, and I doubt she has the experience and the maturity to deal with them if they do.

What do I expect her to do if there's a major failure or emergency of one sort or another? The same as any other singlehander. She very likely does have the experience - and I daresay, the maturity - to deal with small boat crises, given her past history.

As for watchstanding, you'd be surprised at how many commercial ships are plying the seas with watchstanders that are doing a helluva lot more standing than watching. I absolutely understand where you're coming from with the "watchstanding required" line of thought - and certainly in naval vessels there's an even greater emphasis on it - but 4-5kt max speed solo-crewed sailboats have been making do for a while.

I give her 90% odds of successfully completing the voyage, and 99% odds of surviving the attempt, myself, based on what little I've read about it.

 

[Flying Pig]

Ditto. It's not too hard to do it badly, but it is quite hard to completely fail

 

[Agent327]

And I don't think you really have a notion what singlehanding is all about, much less making a successful circumnavigation of the world with a crew. It is incredibly dangerous comparable to just about any other endeavor which you would try to subect a 14-year-old girl.

Technology still doesn't allow you to not stand a watch, which is by far the greatest problem with singlehanding a sailboat. Autopilots and GPS since 1988 have had little, if any, effect on the dangers of circumnavigating the planet. Here's another excellent book on offshore sailboating written in 1999 which does provide advice on modern GPS and autopilots.

At the moment she's still 13 years old and has sailed across the North Sea (from Holland to East Anglia, i.e. a relatively short journey).

Anyway, here's a similar discussion between adults (!) from a Dutch 'quality newspaper' site: http://weblogs.nrc.nl/discussion/2009/08/26/can-a-13-year-old-sail-the-world-alone/

 

[Yared]

BBC NEWS
Dutch teenage sailor 'is missing'

Dutch police say teenage sailor Laura Dekker - who seeks to be the youngest person to sail solo around the world -has been missing since Friday.

Police say the 14-year-old's boat is moored at its berth and she appears to have left her father's home on her own.

Spokesman Bernhard Jens told the Associated Press news agency no criminal activity was suspected - but the authorities were concerned.

She was placed under state care after a Dutch court blocked her sailing bid.

Miss Dekker had planned to set off on her solo voyage in September, but the Utrecht District Court said concerns for her safety were too grave.

It placed her under state supervision until July 2010, but allowed Miss Dekker to continue living with her father.

Dutch police say they have issued an alert to airports in neighbouring countries for the missing teenager.

Sailing dreams

At the time of the court ruling in October, Miss Dekker's spokeswoman said she was disappointed, but that the teen could still set the record if she were to sail next year.

Miss Dekker is a seasoned sailor who was born on a yacht off the coast of New Zealand during a seven-year world trip.

She had a yacht by the age of six and began sailing solo when she was 10.

Her father, Dick Dekker, supports her attempt at the record, while her mother has expressed some concerns.

Miss Dekker had planned to spend about two years aboard her 26ft (8m) boat, Guppy, to break the record set in August by a 17-year-old UK boy.

Mike Perham tackled 50ft waves, gale force winds and technical problems during the 28,000 mile (45,000km) circumnavigation, which took him nine months.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/8423325.stm

Published: 2009/12/20 14:43:21 GMT

© BBC MMIX

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breaking news!!!

 

[holy king]

well, good journey.

 

[Yared]

Bon Voyage indeed

 

[JohnRM]

Wow, I am getting into this extremely late.

I would not make a judgment until I sat down with the parents and the girl in question and spoke to her. People do stupid things all the time and risk their lives for nothing. Who am I to say that she shouldn't be permitted to do this, as long as she knows what she is up against and they have it planned out well. If she really wants to do it, why stop her? What does age have to do with anything?

 

[holy king]

yeah, if an 11 year old wants to have sex with a 30 year old, she should be allowed to.

what has age to do with anything?

 

[JohnRM]

yeah, if an 11 year old wants to have sex with a 30 year old, she should be allowed to.

what has age to do with anything?

Yeah, cause that's the same thing.