Dutch authorities sue parents of 13 year-old to stop solo sail trip around the world

[jessiecat]

That's not how it works - people like the RNLI help anyone in trouble, regardless of whether they agree with what they're doing or not. I used to volunteer on a Lifeboat, and we picked up a few really stupid people.

Like I described before. We rescued a couple last year while we were sport fishing about 14 miles out, near the Eddystone Lighthouse. Then they actually threated to sue the skipper cause he wouldn't waste a day's fishing and immediately tow the sailboat back to port (at his own cost). Luckily the RNLI turned up and sorted out the arrogant prats.

 

[_random_]

She's not inherently more or less capable than any adult, and she definitely seems to know what she's doing. Let her go for it, I say.

 

[aelf]

That's not how it works - people like the RNLI help anyone in trouble, regardless of whether they agree with what they're doing or not. I used to volunteer on a Lifeboat, and we picked up a few really stupid people.

Durr

Of course I don't think that. What I said was directed at people who are saying that the government shouldn't be involved in this. There are many things the government shouldn't be involved in, but I say it should be involved in this and in stuff like going to Afghanistan to do charity work privately, since the government would probably have to get your butt out of trouble is anything happens to you, especially when you go ahead despite being told not to do it.

And for people who do not like taxes, why would they want the government to spend money helping a person when her personal project goes sour?

All of these things just don't mesh.

 

[El Koeno]

Then the government should not be involved in helping her if she runs into any trouble, I suppose.

As the chances of her running into troubles in Dutch waters are pretty small, that would not be a problem I suppose.

 

[aelf]

As the chances of her running into troubles in Dutch waters are pretty small, that would not be a problem I suppose.

So, uh, if she gets into trouble in another country's or international waters, the Dutch government would not be involved at all?

That's a good way to take care of your citizens. "When you're out, you're not our business!"

 

[Orange Seeds]

So sailing around the world means you'd certainly be enjoying a relaxing journey on calm seas and a perfectly safe environment?

Yes. 95% of the time that is exactly what it means. Most ocean voyages are spent avoiding doldrums not avoiding squalls.

Spoiler :

Based on what I've read, nobody who has posted so far has a clear understanding what singlehanded sailing is all about based on the lack of discussion in that direction. This is an incredibly dangerous endeavor. One shipping container that has fallen overboard from a freighter, tree trunk, or even a pod of curious whales can cause your untimely death, never mind being run over by a commercial ship, or making a navigational error and striking land while you are asleep or preparing your dinner. It happens all the time.

Then there is the issue of rogue waves and weather. While planning your trip to avoid hurricane and monsoon seasons goes a long way towards eliminating the danger, there will always be times when you are at risk of being capsized. The odds of this occurring are inversely proportional to you actual sailing experience under those conditions and the seaworthiness of your vessel. While the latter will likely be exceptional in this particular case, there are always issues of equipment failing and what you can do about it while on the high seas.

And if you ever fall overboard, forget about it. The odds of you surviving are close to zero even if you are attached by a harness to a jackline. Most people simply don't have the strength to be able to pull themselves back aboard. Every time you leave the cockpit, you are risking your life.

Then there are the psychological aspects. Being completely alone for days on end with no human contact whatsoever while surrounded by thousands of miles of open water is sufficient to drive many people nuts. It would take an incredibly mature and independent 14-year-olf girl to really want to be that isolated from civilization for such long periods of time.

If you really want to know what singlehanded sailing actually entails, and why it is completely different than sailing with sufficient crew to stand watches or help in times of emergencies, I suggest you read this most excellent book on the subject:

Singlehanded Sailing: The Experiences and Techniques of the Lone Voyagers

And a 14-year-old girl will face a completely different set of problems from your typical amateur sailor. She is obviously going to draw a lot of attention wherever she sails. Unless her parents are rich beyond belief or she has a support organization that will always watch over her when she is in port, that could very well be the most dangerous aspect of her trip.

And someone mentioned Lloyd's. No insurer will cover a singlehanded sailboat under any conditions. You must always have sufficient crew to stand watches while underway to even be considered for insurance for obvious reasons.

That route is completely impractical for the typical sailboat due to lack of provisioning ports and the incredibly high seas you would face. Amateur sailors go out of their way to almost always pick the route where time between ports is minimized as much as possible, especially if you are singlehanding and only taking catnaps while you are underway.

I think you are severely overestimating the physical danger. It is just as dangerous to hike the local mountain than it is to sail across an ocean when well equipped, well prepared and well learned. The technology advancements since that book you listed was written allows for incredibly more comfortable quarters. We now have sophisticated auto-pilots and GPS.

Like it or not, modern sailors do not need to steer, navigate, or know the signs of bad weather. She is not racing or delivering(which is what that book looks like it was more-so intended for) she has no quota or schedule thus if there is a risk then she can wait it out at port. Her time will mostly be spent checking sheets for slack and finding things to do while bored and waiting for the wind to pick up. She's going in a 26' foot pocket cruiser hopefully a Contessa or a Vancouver or an Alberg or something of that sort with a deep and full keel.

Her route is not impractical at all. It is the most common route for(wealthy) circumnavigators as they cheat and use the two canals. Just to make it clear, when people go on long voyages, very little of their time is spent actually sailing. For ever one day on the brine, generally you spend two or more waiting out storms, provisioning, fixing, equipping. An ocean voyage is a sequence of hops; when along the coast you do day hops, tying up each night when you have to take a multi-day 'hop' you wait until you get a window. Her trip will be like this:
-day hops to Brittany
-4 day hop across Biscay
-day hops to Cadiz/Lisbon
-one week to Las Palmas
-three weeks across Atlantic avoiding equatorial calms
-island hopping to Panama
etc.
You are not constantly sailing. in between each of those sections will be a pause. You may have to wait weeks at port before you get the go ahead from a forecaster.

Obviously there are still risks. But the risk of being run over by a freighter is astronomically small. The risk of running into weather that can endanger you or your boat is rather small as well for someone who is smart.

 

[Mise]

They have age restrictions at theme parks but apparently sailing around the world on your own is safer than Disneyland.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think you are severely overestimating the physical danger.

And I don't think you really have a notion what singlehanding is all about, much less making a successful circumnavigation of the world with a crew. It is incredibly dangerous comparable to just about any other endeavor which you would try to subect a 14-year-old girl.

The technology advancements since that book you listed was written allows for incredibly more comfortable quarters. We now have sophisticated auto-pilots and GPS.

Technology still doesn't allow you to not stand a watch, which is by far the greatest problem with singlehanding a sailboat. Autopilots and GPS since 1988 have had little, if any, effect on the dangers of circumnavigating the planet. Here's another excellent book on offshore sailboating written in 1999 which does provide advice on modern GPS and autopilots.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LR...esult&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

To try to claim that technology has caused most of the issues of singlehanding a sailboat to go away is basically absurd. That is how people die by disregarding the actual risks and believing that modern technology has taken all the danger out of it. Most experts will tell you that it is far safer to not have any modern technology at all because it can always fail at worst possible time.

Like it or not, modern sailors do not need to steer, navigate, or know the signs of bad weather.

What do you expect her to do if the GPS or the autopilot fails, or if the vessel is dismasted after a blowdown or a rogue wave has struck? She can't very well call daddy to come get her. And long-term forecasts will never be able to spot all the squalls you can run into.

I'd say the odds are slightly in her favor to succeed if she ever actually does it. But just barely. There are just far too many things which can go wrong, and I doubt she has the experience and the maturity to deal with them if they do.

 

[Orange Seeds]

They have age restrictions at theme parks but apparently sailing around the world on your own is safer than Disneyland.

they don't have age restrictions, they have height restrictions. This is because if you are small enough, the restraining bars etc are ineffective thus making the rides dangerous. There is nothing analogous to sailing.

 

[Mise]

they don't have age restrictions, they have height restrictions. This is because if you are small enough, the restraining bars etc are ineffective thus making the rides dangerous. There is nothing analogous to sailing.

Nah, they have age restrictions too. I got on one ride when I was younger cos I was 3 months older than my friend, even though he was taller than me. My mum wouldn't let me go on it though It's usually height though, you're right.

Dodgems usually have age limits rather than height limits, but I think that's cos you get thrown around a lot in a dodgem. Personally I've never gone overboard but I can see how it could happen.

 

[Narz]

A 14-year old can NOT sail around the world ALONE!

She can, it's just a matter of them letting her.

I support this young lady's freedom, especially given her previous experience.

 

[Earthling]

Dodgems usually have age limits rather than height limits, but I think that's cos you get thrown around a lot in a dodgem. Personally I've never gone overboard but I can see how it could happen.

Arghhh my eyes! I can't unread it. You really call them that?

But anyway, the continuing debate over the safety issue (I'd say it's not insignificant, most importantly because this trip necessitates international travel) did make me think of some tangent - I'd heard of the Boy Scouts or similar organizations having "solo" wilderness survival trips or something along those lines, and was wondering if anyone knew more about that or rules and regulations relating to them (age particularly being a good start).

 

[Mise]

Yeah we call them that, I thought everyone called them that!

 

[El Koeno]

They have age restrictions at theme parks but apparently sailing around the world on your own is safer than Disneyland.

Yes, and banning her from sailing around the world is going to stop her from sailing? She's got her own yacht! What do you think she'll do? Take photos of it, and look at them? Next summer she'll be cruising around whatever ocean is within reach. And there IS no age limit to stop her. If the government wants to enforce one, they should create one first, especially for the few rich kids who want to try...

Also, let's not forget there's already teenagers doing solo-circumnavigations. At least one Brit is set to break the current record for youngest to circumnavigate in a couple of days if I'm not mistaken. He's doing just fine.

 

[otago]

Since she holds a NZ passport looks like she may try and start her little adventure from here.
She has one problem, like the Netherlands NZ has laws regarding children and school , so I doubt if our people will allow her to sail happily away from here either.
If her parents try and sneak her out they will find themselves in the dock facing a judge.

 

[Orange Seeds]

And I don't think you really have a notion what singlehanding is all about, much less making a successful circumnavigation of the world with a crew.

Why would you think that?

Technology still doesn't allow you to not stand a watch, which is by far the greatest additional danger of singlehanding a sailboat. Autopilots and GPS since 1988 have had little, if any, effect on the dangers of circumnavigating the planet. Here's another book for you written in 1999 which does provide advice on modern GPS and autopilots

stand watch in the middle of an ocean? proper GPS and radar censors call out alarms if there is a risk of collision(whenever another boat is within visible range) anything else that can be dangerous will not be avoided by you seeing it. Heavy weather will wake you up no matter how you attempt to sleep. If standing watch is the biggest danger then why do you have issue with a 14 year old doing it and not everyone? The simple fact is that people do this same thing all the time including many, many people right now. Many of those people are far less experienced than this lass.

That statement alone shows the depth of your ignorance and lack of experience on this topic. What do you expect her to do if the GPS or the autopilot fails? Call daddy to come get her?

Those are risks. Albeit small ones. This is why most sailors are very keen to navigate personally and know the weather. She is not helpless; i am rather confident that she can do all of things more than competently. She is far more experienced then i am, but would the state have issue with me casting off into the blue?

Contrary to most people's intuition, barring weather, coastal sailing is much more hazardous then deep ocean sailing. If you avoid inclement weather, then there is a very small risk of serious danger.

I find your accusation of ignorance to be very strange. I stated something that is true(walk down into any marina and find the slip with the biggest beneteau and ask him which corner of his sail is the clew). The vast, vast majority of people who sail across oceans never steer at all once out of the harbour; many of them will never plot their course on paper; even less will actually accurately document cloud formations. Thus none of those skills are truly needed though you will be in a much better position if you had them.

I dislike having arguments with you Form. because they have a tendency to get very snippy and personal(due to my own actions equally as much as yours).

 

[Bill3000]

What the hell is a dodgem?

 

[Earthling]

What the hell is a dodgem?

This is going to be sigworthy when I switch mine over sometime, if it's all right with you. But since I took the trouble to Google it, and so it doesn't confuse any others on this thread, apparently "dodgems" is the term used in the UK for "bumper cars" at amusement parks.

And this issue continuing to bring up complications is interesting if a little surprising, but to be fully clear I do recognize there is a good chance she could accomplish this all right, and not have anything bad come from it. The thing is though, I just can't justify to myself what I would think if I read a year from now about this girl being lost at sea forever, just for the sake of some record - that's not a decision a minor is fit to make, and I agree that the state shouldn't let the parents get away with it either. There are so many other decisions and actions restricted to minors because of risk of harm that this really seems a trivial call, though it may sound unfair, particularly because they're using a roundabout legal method of contesting this based on the school system (which is a concern as well, but could be worked around better).

 

[cardgame]

"Dodgem" instead of "Bumper Car"?

Really?

OT: I say let her sail.

 

[otago]

"Dodgem" instead of "Bumper Car"?

Really?

OT: I say let her sail.

Dodgem, the Queen's English which is of course correct