Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

Who do you think will win in November?


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What bad things happened in the world when the Donald Trump was in the White House?

Only things I can recollect are:

(a) Covid which happened everywhere

and

(b) a riot.
(a) How about Trump botching up the response to Covid?
(b) How about Trump causing the riot because he is too childisch to admit defeat.
(c) Combined, when he was still president he was more occupied with selling the Big Lie than the thousands of Americans that were dying of Covid.

You're forgetting he ordered more drone strikes in 2 years than Obama did in 2 terms. Rolled back the reporting on civilian casualties.
You're forgetting he dropped a record number of bombs on Afghanistan, after which he made a deal with the Taliban to hand over the country.
You're forgetting he managed to squander the booming economy he inherented and managed to explode the depth by giving his rich friends tax cuts.
 
The response to Covid was generally botched up throughout the world.

I suspect that the increase in drone strikes primarily reflected an increase in production.

Although more bombing may also have been to try to reduce US military casualties.

I don't regard the decision to get out of Afghanistan as a bad thing.

As for the so called insurrection, the liberals had made it perfectly clear they would try to jail
him if he was not re-elected; perhaps a factor in his reluctance to step down as per normal.

Thing is two major wars broke out on Joe Biden's watch and he hasn't a clue how to end them.

Now I hope Kamala Harris will, once out from the shadow of her current boss, show some initiative.
 
The response to Covid was generally botched up throughout the world.
Not as bad as Trump botched it up
I suspect that the increase in drone strikes primarily reflected an increase in production.
I suspect you're finding excuses. More in 2 years than Obama in 2 terms.
Although more bombing may also have been to try to reduce US military casualties.
More excuses.

I don't regard the decision to get out of Afghanistan as a bad thing.
How about Trump's deal? Not bad?

As for the so called insurrection, the liberals had made it perfectly clear they would try to jail
him if he was not re-elected; perhaps a factor in his reluctance to step down as per normal.
Complete and utter bollocks.

Fact of the matter is: Trump caused the riot because he is too childisch to admit defeat. Argue against that.

17 August 2020: Trump: ‘The only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged’
Thing is two major wars broke out on Joe Biden's watch and he hasn't a clue how to end them.
The thing is, 2 wars broke out without Joe Biden's influence and no one has a clue on how to end them

But I guess you believe Trump could end them in 24 hours, because Trump said so.

Now I hope Kamala Harris will, once out from the shadow of her current boss, show some initiative.
What initiative would you propose?
 
How about Trump's deal? Not bad?

Better than the alternative of the west remaining in Afghanistan, on a perpetual war basis.

Thing is my country, the UK, got volunteered into that war, and I am glad that that US President got us out.

What initiative would you propose?

Recognising that the boundaries of the soviet republic of Ukraine made a poor basis for an independent state.

Donald Trump is a flawed man who talks a lot of rot, but he sees himself as business man rather than a cold war leader.
 
The response to Covid was generally botched up throughout the world.

Only Trump made up a bunch of "cures" that were fatal if used, and spread lies about vacinations, creating the antivax movement. But, while on the subject, Trump defunded pandemic response preparation, meaning the US was less prepared once it started than we had been when he took office.

I suspect that the increase in drone strikes primarily reflected an increase in production.

The US always had the ability to bomb more. The question being how selective of targets to be.

Although more bombing may also have been to try to reduce US military casualties.

He's never demonstrated any other concern for service people's lives.

I don't regard the decision to get out of Afghanistan as a bad thing.

Doesn't mean it wasn't mishandled.

As for the so called insurrection, the liberals had made it perfectly clear they would try to jail him if he was not re-elected; perhaps a factor in his reluctance to step down as per normal.

Lying doesn't change anything. He only faced prosecutions for crimes he committed. It was still up to courts to convict.

Thing is two major wars broke out on Joe Biden's watch and he hasn't a clue how to end them.

They also don't directly involve the US, the US isn't responsible for starting them, and doesn't have the power to end them.

Now I hope Kamala Harris will, once out from the shadow of her current boss, show some initiative.
 
Donald Trump is a flawed man who talks a lot of rot, but he sees himself as business man rather than a cold war leader.
And such a fabulous business man he is: 6 bankruptcies (casinos even) tax fraud, fake charities, business scams like Trump University, etc. He is just a crime family, boss.
 
What bad things happened in the world when the Donald Trump was in the White House?

Only things I can recollect are:

(a) Covid which happened everywhere

and

(b) a riot.
cutlass mentioned foreign policy, and i guess i may want to make a note on that.

he nearly destroyed eu relations.

now, trump is a buffoon and this is a problem in itself, but let's ignore his uh cadence and focus on his ability to negotiate.

his idea of dealings is a system of showing authority through arbitrary demands (such as the will he-won't he thing he's been doing with the kamala harris debate thing), harsh carrot-stick enforcement (the tariff thing comes off), the ukraine call, stuff like that. when you are in a bargaining position with one other person that depends on your agreement, this can be a powerful method of negotiation (even if it's vile; let's ignore that for now). like if you're an employer and knows your employee needs your job, you can outline psychologically that you're making the rules. it's very 80s business book school, it's actually very well-known and classical behavior, even if trump's actual speech patterns are, uh, not. however, that's also the issue with such a practice; it only work in a closed system. if there is one other more lenient option, the other party will tend to go there. this scales in bad the more other options you have; and in the case of the international community (where there are literally 100s of parties just on a state level), it's bad to the Nth degree.

so that's an outline of his actual method, right? that's all just garbled theory on my end. you wanted a consequence? during the summit in eu, like during it, merkel did an impromptu general speech basically channeling what the eu realized what they were dealing with; that the us were not a reliable leader anymore as an international position. this was 2018.

trump's diplomatic performance was so absolutely abysmal that he f*ing lost the goddamn eu as a pseudosubservient element. even if the us doesn't care about the military participation (which is consistently understated by people like trump), the eu is an absolutely massive market that the us is very much involved in. one might want to be on good terms with the eu to trade there, y'know. the us used to have a special position there, both being on good terms, having mutual interests and being in a leading position internationally. now, irt leadership - bluntly, i'm not so sure anymore.

people don't much talk about this because there's been so many god damn incidents that it tends to blend together. on your very two notes, there's also like the details of them, which i think belies an insane understatement of how awful both were. trump's lack of response/antivaxx buttkissing caused quite the # of infections (both leading to deaths and chronic side effects, the latter people think to ignore); for "a riot", i haven't forgotten unmarked cars arresting protesters and disappearing them (yes, they showed up again, no, that doesn't make it goochie).

EDIT: oh, your reference to "a riot" was january 6th. i was discussing another, and how it was handled (where, interestingly, it was much harsher dealt with than a maga voterbase storming the goddamn capital). i'd argue that's even more of an understatement of how alarming his presidency is than the others i was thinking about. "a riot" is doing quite the heavy lifting there. :p
 
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trump's lack of response/antivaxx buttkissing caused quite the # of infections (both leading to deaths and chronic side effects, the latter people think to ignore)
Interestingly, this is actually perceived as a positive for many Americans.

Trust in the state, or experts in general, is very low. I attribute this to a lack of action to reverse a really deep pessimism over class direction, but it's also somewhat a consequence of the patterns American religious conservatives interacting with academia. Often, stark value conflict there.

The strong libertarian streak, strong individualism, also led many to feel betrayed over the notion that they'd have to socially distance, lockdown, or wear masks. In large swathes of rural America, freedom from such collective action is thought to be part of the social contract, imo.

I don't think Trump got the wind blowing on antivax or anti mandates. He opened his sails to the wind, though. To some extent, did that popularize or legitimize those movements? Maybe a little. Not much imho. MAGA voters were already moving against those things. Longstanding American cultural traditions basically guaranteed they would, I think. It's more the bottom of the pyramid influencing the top here. The influence of leadership can be overstated and often tends to be... this is one where I feel like American culture itself was a freight train rolling down those tracks.
 
Now do you think it was a good thing for the EU to be pseudo-subservient to the USA ?

I certainly don't.
no, i don't. but you're missing the point. this is not about what the us is doing to the pride of the eu or england or whatever. your ideal of what happens to the eu or the uk is irrelevant as to this destruction of relations. because the us has an interest in having europe as an accessible market while supporting the us' international endeavours. it's not really that complicated; just because you or i don't like being dependent on the states' behavior doesn't mean they don't have an interest in having us dependent. therefore, it's a huge fumble.

talking from the position of pure power politics, the us has had an economic and geopolitical interest in having europe as part of their sphere since the marshall plan. there's a question of nation states more or less competing on a global level. trump and his base operate purely within this structure, it's why he won't shut up about the us losing power and being outcompeted and such. the us were tremendously weakened diplomatically under trump. like, this whole thing extended far beyond eu relations. there was a non-insignificant period where he didn't have any ambassador in south korea and saudi arabia. that's insane.

it's like. say you're walking your dog, and a bear jumps you, but misses, falls into a river and drowns. now, you may like that you & your dog are alive, but if you can't recognize the bear's actions as a sheer stupid fumble, i don't know what to say.

edit cutlass also brings up the very good point that the treatment of europe hasn't been as grim as you may fantasize about. previously, it was economic entanglement and whatever you think of capitalism, the eu greatly benefited from the trade relations, even if they were part of the us sphere of influence. trump decided to turn on a dime and switch between demands and threats and mockery and faux pases depending on his mood. we're not even talking rudeness here. he blundered at every god damn corner of relations. it was exhausting. he even screwed up relations with denmark of all things (anyone else wants to buy greenland?).*

* and no, the previous history of offers here does not make it any less insane; infact, it's telltale of someone who has absolutely no connection as to what modern diplomacy entails. it shows a thorough lack of understanding and care to gain understanding about someone you're cooperating with; it's a showcase that this partner is completely effing impossible to work with, if they can't get such a basic thing right.
 
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the treatment of europe hasn't been as grim as you may fantasize about.

Excuse me. I merely quoted your words about pseudo-subservience, not my own thoughts.

To effective at pure power politics, a country requires a powerful real economy to support it.
But the USA is behind China in many areas, that is what has weakened the USA diplomatically.
Donald Trump recognised that, that upset the US establishment who didn't want to admit it.
His attempts to rectify it, e.g. MAGA, were ineffective; but the old order wasn't working so well.
 
Excuse me. I merely quoted your words about pseudo-subservience, not my own thoughts.

To effective at pure power politics, a country requires a powerful real economy to support it.
But the USA is behind China in many areas, that is what has weakened the USA diplomatically.
Donald Trump recognised that, that upset the US establishment who didn't want to admit it.
His attempts to rectify it, e.g. MAGA, were ineffective; but the old order wasn't working so well.

The intent of Trump's policies were to make all of those problems worse.
 
Excuse me. I merely quoted your words about pseudo-subservience, not my own thoughts.

To effective at pure power politics, a country requires a powerful real economy to support it.
But the USA is behind China in many areas, that is what has weakened the USA diplomatically.
Donald Trump recognised that, that upset the US establishment who didn't want to admit it.
His attempts to rectify it, e.g. MAGA, were ineffective; but the old order wasn't working so well.
Thank you for saying that, now I wish Americans would acknowledge it. We can no longer fight all the world's battles.

This does not mean that the battles aren't coming. We just can't fight them alone. Trump was essentially throwing the EU out of the basement, time for them to get a job instead of living on Daddy's dime.

edit: and I think they got the message.
 
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Excuse me. I merely quoted your words about pseudo-subservience, not my own thoughts.
is this an apology, is it pretending to be insulted?
the joys of snipquipping! :D you're not very clear here, to be, well, clear.
To effective at pure power politics, a country requires a powerful real economy to support it.
But the USA is behind China in many areas, that is what has weakened the USA diplomatically.
Donald Trump recognised that, that upset the US establishment who didn't want to admit it.
His attempts to rectify it, e.g. MAGA, were ineffective; but the old order wasn't working so well.
ugh.

so the funny part about this is, like... you said trump had very few real issues (with a cutesy understatement of a goddamn insurrection). i noted there were many, exemplified diplomacy. you made a weird quip about us hegemony or whatever. i outlined that it was still a failure for trump. now you're talking about china, yourself talking about how trump failed there... i think you want to get into the weeds of longer tendencies of chinese industrialization...? like??
this is... kind of strange, all of it. like, it doesn't follow at all from what you were actually arguing.

so: can we add trump's poor diplomatic behavior to a pointed list of being a bad president? yes. us-eu relations were awful during trump's presidency, because trump alienated the eu for some reason. this is the case of the matter.

for china, it's like, did the bear jump you and your dog? english edward says no - because the bear jumped you faster than expected. ok.
 
Thank you for saying that, now I wish Americans would acknowledge it. We can no longer fight all the world's battles.

This does not mean that the battles aren't coming. We just can't fight them alone. Trump was essentially throwing the EU out of the basement, time for them to get a job instead of living on Daddy's dime.

edit: and I think they got the message.
hey man so like i quoteposted you a list of military spending, you didn't reply to, because it actively contradicts this, and i know you saw it
 
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instead of living on Daddy's dime.
800px-Fred_Trump_in_the_1980s_%28cropped2%29.jpg
 
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