Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[Ziggy Stardust]

Trump's biggest lie could spark global war. With Stephen Fry.

 

[Fippy]

There is a stark difference between Trump and Harris whether or not those living elsewhere in the world can see it or not.

I would have to be blind to not see Trump as potential danger.
However..Trumpists exist everywhere by now. It's actually scary when peoples in France, Germany etc talk about him like he's their cult leader (in lack of a better word..but sometimes it's really like that).

 

[Voidwalkin]

What US political institution is at all left-wing?

Depends what you define left wing as.

If you just define it as liberal, which I do, the education system, most public spaces, and most corporate offices(though these are unreliable supporters)

I don't see much point in continuing to define the left as a group of Marxist or Marxist sympathetic ideologues. Not even sure how much enthusiasm for helping poor people there is.

You are what you repeatedly do. This generation of activists, even self-declared Marxists, repeatedly mention race, gender or orientation more than class. Far more. Woke is a term that has so much pushback and toxicity around it that there should be a better name, but whatever. It's an ideological evolution away from classical Marxism and is becoming something entirely new, with its own dogmas and tenets.

Something similar has happened before

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

How did you work out her politics?

That was an example of the entitlement etc. (which btw, crosses all political boundaries)

*sigh*

Look, I won't deny that sometimes, the "wokes" can be preachy and pushy and insist on an opinion that's fairly unpopular as being the only true and valid and morally correct opinion, and I get how that can be annoying. But like, you know what the big difference is between those types and the fundamentalist religious right? The woke left doesn't have any kind of institutional power in government, and no prominent officials are trying to pass laws to enforce "wokism" or whatever you wanna call it, compared to the countless attempts (some successful, some not) by the right to ban abortion, or make it basically illegal to be visibly LGBTQ in public, or teach kids about social movements or about a version of history and contemporary politics that doesn't heavily whitewash things. The woke left doesn't make up police forces who have the power to inflict state-sanctioned violence, and when I hear about politically motivated mass shootings, it's basically always a right-winger shooting up a black church or a synagogue or a gay nightclub or something. The woke left is just some people on Twitter who sometimes overreact to minor offenses.

This is why I can't take it seriously when someone says the "wokes" and the fundies are the same. Offend left-wing sensibilities and you might get people calling you names on the internet; offend right-wing sensibilities and someone might actually try to kill you.




All it means is that the only votes that count are in a few swing states, and usually the ones that get the most attention are the most populous ones (like Pennsylvania, or Georgia, or Arizona) because they have more votes. Most of the low-population states aren't swingy so their votes mean nothing.

Why is this a better system than just one person = one vote, exactly?

Have you seen a map of the counties of the us, the red/blue one?

When the system was setup, most of the population was rural/small town kinda thing.
Now with cities having millions, that skews things.

Is the current system perfect? Hell no.

Oh, one other thing. When all the counting is done, what is the actual percentage of eligible voters who actually voted?

It is sad when barely 50% actually vote. (not just the US either)

Strange argument you have considering the "founders" of the country were essentially a bunch of migrant peasants and serfs fleeing poverty in a go nowhere caste system who then applied a similar stratified class system (Great Chain of Being applied to race) based on race in the continent they migrated to. They then displaced the indigenous peoples and excluded non whites from citizenship for centuries, so it seems the idea of who is and who is not a true citizen is a bit arbitrary. The idea of "foreigners" coming to the US and abusing its law on citizenship in a country that was founded by foreigners is ludicrous.

So immigrants are comparable to weeds that don't produce fruit, seems like you already have a strong opinion on immigration.

What keeps getting lost in the whole "immigrant" discussions is one tiny point.\
Legal vs illegal. Major difference.

I would have to be blind to not see Trump as potential danger.
However..Trumpists exist everywhere by now. It's actually scary when peoples in France, Germany etc talk about him like he's their cult leader (in lack of a better word..but sometimes it's really like that).

Not Trumpists per se, but people starting to take a good look at who's running things, and not liking what they see and hear.
Socialism as a form of governing, flat out does not work. Period.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not Trumpists per se, but people starting to take a good look at who's running things, and not liking what they see and hear.
Socialism as a form of governing, flat out does not work. Period.

How do I interpret this? Where do people see socialism as a form of governing in the good look who's running things?

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

How do I interpret this? Where do people see socialism as a form of governing in the good look who's running things?

Look at the governments of the countries you named, and several others in that area. (EU)
(perhaps I should have used socialist instead. same sentiment from me tho)

 

[aelf]

It's like if Baron Harkonnen is pulling the strings of the Missionaria Protectiva.

And some 'true believers' are still holding onto their religion, even knowing that it's basically serving the Harkonnen cause now. Meanwhile, the Geidi Prime troglodytes are outright worshiping the Baron.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Look at the governments of the countries you named, and several others in that area. (EU)
(perhaps I should have used socialist instead. same sentiment from me tho)

I didn't name any country. But France and Germany aren't socialist countries.

But I do get the sentiment. I'm Dutch. We've had a centre-right government for 3 decades. And people are still blaming socialist/left wing policies as a boogieman for all problems.

It's just an easy go-to, and in no way a result of "a good look"

 

[Gorbles]

Depends what you define left wing as.

If you just define it as liberal, which I do, the education system, most public spaces, and most corporate offices(though these are unreliable supporters)

I don't see much point in continuing to define the left as a group of Marxist or Marxist sympathetic ideologues. Not even sure how much enthusiasm for helping poor people there is.

I too can define anything as anything, by defining anything as anything. Remember, I was talking to another European, who hasn't been boondoggled by the US' constant shift of the Overton window to the right.

If I was asking Americans in the thread, I'd temper my expectations accordingly. Such as to expect the tired automatic name association to "Marxist", as though that's the next stop leftwards from "liberal". I'd also open a tangent about how education, which varies massively by state and has significant input from various religious organisations, and other conservative bodies, not limited to but at times including literal Republican (or conservative Democrat) intervention. But, alas, I wasn't. You are of course free to give any answers you feel relevant or pertinent. Can't and don't want to stop that.

 

[Angst]

*sigh*

Yeah, the "wokes" tend to be less violent than the far-right. Differences of value exists, that's why we have different political parties and a whole range of opinions (that's one of the reason why many people who can't stand them, will still vote left and still prefer them compared to far-right, like yours truly). That's also not what the point was about.
Where the "wokes" and the "fundies" are the same, and where the actual point was, is about the cult-like self-righteousness, willingness to enforce their opinion regardless of what others might want, impossibility to understand they might be wrong, refusal to even consider it's possible to discuss the fundamental of their faith, and the denial of facts/lack of acceptance of reality check.
The MINDSET, you know, the thing I explicitely specified if you bothered to pay attention. And, again like I said if you bothered to pay attention rather than just trying to score a gotcha, it is a major reason why people being exposed to it ends up having a bad opinion and getting repulsed by it (which was, you know, the actual central point of the exchange).

Also, if you think that only the right has access to institutional power, you might want to actually take off your blinders, gets a less biased look at society as a whole and try to not filter out everything that might give a more nuanced view.

who are the "wokes"

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

I didn't name any country. But France and Germany aren't socialist countries.

But I do get the sentiment. I'm Dutch. We've had a centre-right government for 3 decades. And people are still blaming socialist/left wing policies as a boogieman for all problems.

It's just an easy go-to, and in no way a result of "a good look"

Gee, I guess France and Germany aren't countries then.

Many call the Dems and Repubs the "Uniparty". No matter which party is in charge, not much seems to change.
(not surprisingly, that seems to happen in many countries with the 'major' parties)

(and electorates seem to have the memory span of a gnat) alas.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Gee, I guess France and Germany aren't countries then.

I didn't name any. You replied to another poster. (Edit: Flippy)

They aren't socialist countries.

 

[Samson]

Jeffrey Epstein details close relationship with Trump in newly released tapes

A New York author and journalist has released audio tapes that appear to detail how Donald Trump had a close social relationship with the late sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein that he has long denied.

Wolff says the recordings were made during a 2017 discussion with Epstein about writing his biography.

Wolff claims the excerpt tape is a mere fraction of some “100 hours of Epstein talking about the inner workings of the Trump White House and about his longstanding, deep relationship with Donald Trump”.

The Fire and Fury tapes reveal Epstein recalling how then president Trump played his circle off against each other. “His people fight each other and then he poisons the well outside,” he says.

The author names Steve Bannon, Reince Priebus and Kellyanne Conway as being among the acolytes and officials Trump played off each other like courtiers in a competitive court.

“He will tell 10 people ‘Bannon’s a scumbag’ and ‘Priebus is not doing a good job’ and ‘Kellyanne has a big mouth – what do you think?’

“‘[JPMorgan Chase CEO] Jamie Dimon says that you’re a problem and I shouldn’t keep you. And I spoke to [financier] Carl Icahn. And Carl thinks I need a new spokesperson.’”

Epstein continues his exposition of Trump’s approach to management: “So Kelly[anne] – even though I hired Kellyanne’s husband – Kellyanne is just too much of a wildcard. And then he tells Bannon: ‘You know I really want to keep you but Kellyanne hates you.’”

The Guardian recently revealed that in 1993 Epstein had taken Stacey Williams, a Sports Illustrated model and his girlfriend of two months, to Trump’s Fifth Avenue penthouse and allowed or perhaps encouraged the former US president to grope her in what she described as a “twisted game”.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well...well...well.

 

[choxorn]

If you just define it as liberal, which I do, the education system, most public spaces, and most corporate offices(though these are unreliable supporters)

How are most "public spaces" liberal, exactly?

As to the education system and corporate offices, I assume you're generally referring to the policies put forth by the administrative/managerial class of each (school principals, university deans, corporate board rooms, etc.), in which case, in my experience, their sole guiding bedrock is "what makes us the most money." If they support the odd liberal or progressive thing it's because they've decided the thing is popular enough that catering to it makes them money; if they implement some workplace policies on it around say, sexual harassment or discrimination, it's because they've decided that not doing that makes it too hard to retain women or minorities as employees. But everything they're doing is lip service in support of the bottom line.

I don't see much point in continuing to define the left as a group of Marxist or Marxist sympathetic ideologues. Not even sure how much enthusiasm for helping poor people there is.

You are what you repeatedly do. This generation of activists, even self-declared Marxists, repeatedly mention race, gender or orientation more than class. Far more. Woke is a term that has so much pushback and toxicity around it that there should be a better name, but whatever. It's an ideological evolution away from classical Marxism and is becoming something entirely new, with its own dogmas and tenets.

Marxists and Marxist sympathizers occupy a pretty broad range of ideological space, and whether you're talking about their stated beliefs or declared actions, the amount they care about class vs. some other things varies a lot. In my experience though it's not really an either/or thing, they mostly care about class and the other stuff because being blind to the other stuff means you only care about the largest, most powerful group's issues but say you're taking care of "everybody"

Have you seen a map of the counties of the us, the red/blue one?

When the system was setup, most of the population was rural/small town kinda thing.
Now with cities having millions, that skews things.

Land doesn't vote, people vote. Why should 1 million voters in one county count less than 1 million voters spread across 100 counties?

Such as to expect the tired automatic name association to "Marxist", as though that's the next stop leftwards from "liberal".

I guess it is if you're using the absolute broadest definitions possible of both, and saying "Marxist" is anyone in favor of a socialist or communist system and "liberal" is anyone in favor of a free market capitalist democracy, but at that point the labels are so broad as to be useless.

 

[thetrooper]

I’m getting highly strung about this now. Please tell me that everything will be fine.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Fron NYT:

But there’s a second set of swing voters that may have an even greater impact on the winner. These swing voters know whom they would support but are not sure if they are going to vote. They remain a sizable group despite the fact that we had the highest turnout in over 100 years in the 2020 election. Even with this uptick in interest, one-third of the country’s voters — representing over 80 million people — did not turn out to vote in 2020.

Opinion | Why Trump Has a More Plausible Path to the Presidency, in 19 Maps

A Democratic strategist explains how a deadlocked presidential race may play out in the Electoral College.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Gori the Grey]

I’m getting highly strung about this now. Please tell me that everything will be fine.

Everything will be fine.

 

[Voidwalkin]

school principals, university deans, corporate board rooms, etc.), in which case, in my experience, their sole guiding bedrock is "what makes us the most money."

I did say they were unreliable. They do, however, remain the tip of the spear regarding social change. I suppose it could be said that capitalism is well in charge, maybe to a greater extent than any other time in history, overriding historical communal values left and right. I can't ignore it when it's claimed the left has no influence.

In my experience though it's not really an either/or thing, they mostly care about class and the other stuff because being blind to the other stuff means you only care about the largest, most powerful group's issues but say you're taking care of "everybody"

It remains to be seen whether the thing is either/or. I suspect that catering to identities other than class makes class an afterthought. There's a question there: can people talk about ethnic, sexual and gender identities without getting tribal? Stress those historical connections, address hurtful norms, without fracture?

Trump's ascent is because of many things, but those frictitous conflicts arising are undeniably part of it. I personally don't think people can. Stress the idea that group membership is integral to your economic position(even if it's true), in a resource limited environment($, time, and the energy to assess priorities), competition follows more naturally than cooperation. Not simply right vs left. Due to the nature of the left's coalition, group v group is also there inside the coalition itself. That latter issue was raised several times, particularly exampled by Obama's perceived scolding of black men for insufficient support of Harris, which raised further lovely quotes like Wendell Pierce's sentiments that described white men as the problem, and others of that nature.

I am biased, because I believe the modern left to have failed, but looking at the current polls, it does seem to me that competition rather than cooperation is the result, regardless of the intention. It might be historians will look back and answer "yeah it was either or. People can't handle that ****."

 

[choxorn]

I did say they were unreliable. They do, however, remain the tip of the spear regarding social change. I suppose it could be said that capitalism is well in charge, maybe to a greater extent than any other time in history, overriding historical communal values left and right. I can't ignore it when it's claimed the left has no influence.

Oh come on, middle managers are the tip of the spear? Really? They aren't leading anything or overriding communal values, they're just responding to the social change that's happening and trying to make money off it. If they actually cared about pushing values farther left they'd do more than just make rainbow-colored merch in June.