Ferguson

[Timsup2nothin]

Respectfully, I think that is a ridiculous assumption. You would have to be one really racist [expletive] cop to take a viewpoint like that.

I wasn't taking about you. I was talking about the cops viewpoint. You replied before I had a chance to edit my post after I realized my response was unclear.

Fair enough.

It actually doesn't take a racist cop, because as you say the cops can and do shoot white people as well. The thing is that it is actually a really easy viewpoint for them to have, because it is proven true.

Take the Ferguson case since it is handy. Officer Wilson is 'cleared by the evidence' and you and however many tens of millions are satisfied...but ultimately Michael Brown is still dead. Plenty of people are more than happy to say "grabbed for gun, deserved to die" and unpleasantly enough plenty of people are more than happy to say "black punk, better dead".

That doesn't change the fact that Wilson made a sloppy stop, got in trouble, and shot his way out of it. That provides the object lesson that matters. And the federal investigation afterwards does support the idea that the department in question was filled to the brim with racist [deleted], so adding that as part of my statement doesn't do anything to make it "an assumption".

 

[civman110]

If you interpret criticism of racist cops with criticism of white people, if you think that anti-racism entails racial conflict, then you certainly do identify yourself with them.

You are the one who is making that assumption about me. You just don't see it.

Can cops who are not white also be racist? Why are you only focusing on white people and cops? Are only white cops responsible for police brutality?

Can't you see how you're polarizing the discussion before it even starts?

Well, exactly, and that's why the claim that I'm presenting this as a case of "white/pro-cop" against "black/anti-cop" is absurd. It's a conflict of "racist/pro-cop" and "anti-racist/anti-cop"; if you confuse "racist" and "white", that says more about your own perceptions of white people and whiteness than anything else.

Lol, you just put me in a separate camp again.

Why do I have to be anti-cop now to be against police brutality? Surely not all cops are racist.

Like, I said it is this kind of finger pointing and mud slinging that is only exacerbating the problem.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

For what its worth, I would like to see race removed from most discussions about cops. My local cops shoot people all the time, and they don't discriminate. They want the discussion to be about race, because as long as the problem is "our cops shoot black people" something like 30% of the population responds with "good" and never gives the problem a second thought. That 30% includes a substantial chunk of the people who have actual influence beyond what can be achieved by raising their own voice, so the chances of actually doing anything in the vein of correcting the police is reduced to zero as soon as the problem can be depicted as racial.

 

[civman110]

It actually doesn't take a racist cop, because as you say the cops can and do shoot white people as well.

Agreed.

Also minority cops can also be racist against whites too. People seem to forget that whites can also be treated unfairly for their race. The whole assumption that only whites can be racist is a common stereotype.

...but ultimately Michael Brown is still dead. Plenty of people are more than happy to say "grabbed for gun, deserved to die" and unpleasantly enough plenty of people are more than happy to say "black punk, better dead".

Those viewpoints come from a place of racism, but that's not the way everyone sees it. I also think a lot of people who say things similar to "grabbed for gun, deserved to die" are just inarticulate. It's an ambiguous statement. What some people mean (but not all) is that Brown made a really dumb decision and paid the consequence for it.

A lot of people like myself see it as, "Well he attacked a cop who has a gun. Was he crazy? What did he think was going to happen?"

That doesn't change the fact that Wilson made a sloppy stop, got in trouble, and shot his way out of it.

Regardless, you don't attack cops. You just don't do that. You get shot if you do that.

Sloppy stop, or not that doesn't give Brown justification to attack a cop.

And the federal investigation afterwards does support the idea that the department in question was filled to the brim with racist [deleted], so adding that as part of my statement doesn't do anything to make it "an assumption".

There is a big difference between people being racist and people being willing to commit murder because of it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sloppy stop, or not that doesn't give Brown justification to attack a cop.

Who said attacking the cop was justified?

The point is that

1) Make a sloppy stop

2) Get in a confrontation as a result of step one

3) Shoot your way out

4) Suffer no particular consequences

Is a proven working procedure.

You said it was a ridiculous assumption for me to say cops would think something like that...or that they would have to be racist [deleted] to believe something like that.

The fact is that cops don't think it, they know it. They see it proven out over and over and over, so they would be stupid to not know it.

 

[civman110]

For what its worth, I would like to see race removed from most discussions about cops. My local cops shoot people all the time, and they don't discriminate. They want the discussion to be about race, because as long as the problem is "our cops shoot black people" something like 30% of the population responds with "good" and never gives the problem a second thought. That 30% includes a substantial chunk of the people who have actual influence beyond what can be achieved by raising their own voice, so the chances of actually doing anything in the vein of correcting the police is reduced to zero as soon as the problem can be depicted as racial.

Correct.

However, if there is actual racism occurring I think that needs to be addressed directly and I don't know about 30%, but I agree a significant amount of people. Then you have all of the mud slinging and finger pointing that takes place which further divides people into separate camps.

Who said attacking the cop was justified?

The point is that

1) Make a sloppy stop

2) Get in a confrontation as a result of step one

3) Shoot your way out

4) Suffer no particular consequences

Is a proven working procedure.

You said it was a ridiculous assumption for me to say cops would think something like that...or that they would have to be racist [deleted] to believe something like that.

The fact is that cops don't think it, they know it. They see it proven out over and over and over, so they would be stupid to not know it.

I take issue with your assumption that cops seems to think that if they make a mistake and get into a bad situation that it's ok to shoot someone. I don't think there are many cops out there who would want be responsible for killing someone.

I agree that cops can get themselves into a situation like this, but they don't do it consciously. Also, sometimes things happen that are beyond the cops control and they have to shoot someone. Brown does have a lot of responsibility for his own death. He made several really stupid decisions.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There is a big difference between people being racist and people being willing to commit murder because of it.

It isn't murder, remember? Its just another 'good shoot'. There is not the slightest concern over whether it was avoidable, because as long as it was a 'good shoot' there are no consequences.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I take issue with your assumption that cops seems to think that if they make a mistake and get into a bad situation that it's ok to shoot someone. I don't think there are many people out there would want to kill someone. I don't think most people who are racist would even want to kill someone.

It isn't an assumption, it's a fact. Wilson got in a bad situation and shot someone, and its okay with you, and most people, and the justice department. It happens all the time.

It also isn't a question of wanting to kill anyone, it's just a matter of being totally okay with it if they have to...to the point where they don't feel any particular need to avoid it.

Wilson has said that he regrets the outcome, but wouldn't do anything differently.

 

[civman110]

It isn't murder, remember? Its just another 'good shoot'. There is not the slightest concern over whether it was avoidable, because as long as it was a 'good shoot' there are no consequences.

That's a disingenuous statement.

A racist might not like blacks, but that doesn't mean he wants to commit murder.

It isn't an assumption, it's a fact. Wilson got in a bad situation and shot someone, and its okay with you, and most people, and the justice department. It happens all the time.

It also isn't a question of wanting to kill anyone, it's just a matter of being totally okay with it if they have to...to the point where they don't feel any particular need to avoid it.

Wilson has said that he regrets the outcome, but wouldn't do anything differently.

If people are going to do stupid things like attack police officers they are going to get shot. Bottom line.

The cop doesn't know you, or whether, or not you are going to try to kill him. Once the situation escalates to that point I can't blame the cop for killing Brown. If someone attacked me like that and I had a gun I would shoot them too.

Your assumption that cops think that if they make a mistake they can always fall back on killing someone doesn't represent reality. No normal person wants to be responsible for killing someone if they can avoid it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The cop doesn't know you, or whether, or not you are going to try to kill him. Once the situation escalates to that point I can't blame the cop for killing Brown. If someone attacked me like that and I had a gun I would shoot them too.

The cop doesn't know is all the more reason for them to not be sloppy, and the issue isn't whether you or I would shoot Brown once it escalated to that point. The issue is how it gets to that point.

The issue is that evidence exists to support a mentality of "no one will blame me and my conscience will be clear if the situation escalates to the point that I have to shoot someone."

So a cop can and will say things that are outrageously provocative, knowing that if the target does get provoked they can just shoot them.

So a cop can and has turned what should have been a routine investigative stop into a dead teenager by executing the stop poorly, getting himself slammed in his own car door, and 'having to' shoot someone.

And these things happen all the time, with police procedures actually being adopted regularly that ensure they will not only happen through sloppiness but through following of procedures. No knock warrants are the biggest example here. They make the cops marginally safer, but also guarantee that the cops are going to 'have to' shoot a lot more people.

 

[civman110]

The cop doesn't know is all the more reason for them to not be sloppy, and the issue isn't whether you or I would shoot Brown once it escalated to that point. The issue is how it gets to that point.

I agree, but also people make mistakes and it is not solely the cops responsibility to make sure the situation doesn't escalate is all I am saying.

The issue is that evidence exists to support a mentality of "no one will blame me and my conscience will be clear if the situation escalates to the point that I have to shoot someone."

So a cop can and will say things that are outrageously provocative, knowing that if the target does get provoked they can just shoot them.

I truly do not believe that cops think this.

I have had cops try to provoke me so they could make an arrest tho. Just because they did so didn't mean they wanted to shoot me. It's just them being bad at their job.

So a cop can and has turned what should have been a routine investigative stop into a dead teenager by executing the stop poorly, getting himself slammed in his own car door, and 'having to' shoot someone.

The bottom line is Brown wouldn't have gotten shot if he didn't attack the cop.

And these things happen all the time, with police procedures actually being adopted regularly that ensure they will not only happen through sloppiness but through following of procedures. No knock warrants are the biggest example here. They make the cops marginally safer, but also guarantee that the cops are going to 'have to' shoot a lot more people.

I agree and those are exactly the sorts of things that should be addressed, as well as instances of discrimination and racism.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I agree, but also people make mistakes and it is not solely the cops responsibility to make sure the situation doesn't escalate is all I am saying.

Okay. It isn't solely the cop's responsibility. However the consequences do land solely on the other person, don't they? Does that seem reasonable?

I truly do not believe that cops think this.

I have had cops try to provoke me so they could make an arrest tho. Just because they did so didn't mean they wanted to shoot me. It's just them being bad at their job.

Cops don't have to be thinking they can just shoot their way out, and I don't say that they are thinking it. They are most likely thinking that, as you say, it is just a good way to get an arrest. Or they might be thinking that being a confrontational jerk is a 'perk of the job'. Or they may really be a racist and just want to play the 'better than' card on some genetic inferiors.

But underlying all this behavior without consequences is the very real fact that if the situation does get out of hand they do have a gun and the law on their side.

The bottom line is Brown wouldn't have gotten shot if he didn't attack the cop.

I've already agreed. That doesn't change that there is another bottom line, which is if the cop had done his job right Brown wouldn't have gotten shot. Brown's error was fatal...to Brown. That's self correcting. Wilson's error was also fatal...to Brown, and if it weren't for the riots wouldn't have received any correction at all.

 

[trader/warrior]

Your assumption that cops think that if they make a mistake they can always fall back on killing someone doesn't represent reality. No normal person wants to be responsible for killing someone if they can avoid it.

Looking at what can be found of police killing statistics, it seems American police find themselves resorting to fatal measures at upwards of one hundred times more often than comparable countries*. As much as I can sympathise with officers who find themselves in that sort of situation, that statistic is absolutely shocking. Do you really think this has nothing to do with how police there handle certain types of situations? All just "gun culture" or something?

*And from what I can tell that is a very conservative estimate in comparison to countries like Germany or the UK where they can have years with zero killings, while the US is at 400-1000+ a year (rather surprising that they don't even bother to count as well).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Looking at what can be found of police killing statistics, it seems American police find themselves resorting to fatal measures at upwards of one hundred times more often than comparable countries*. As much as I can sympathise with officers who find themselves in that sort of situation, that statistic is absolutely shocking. Do you really think this has nothing to do with how police there handle certain types of situations? All just "gun culture" or something?

*And from what I can tell that is a very conservative estimate in comparison to countries like Germany or the UK where they can have years with zero killings, while the US is at 400-1000+ a year (rather surprising that they don't even bother to count as well).

It isn't "don't even bother to count", it is flat out refuse to count.

 

[civman110]

Okay. It isn't solely the cop's responsibility. However the consequences do land solely on the other person, don't they? Does that seem reasonable?

Yes.

Cops don't have to be thinking they can just shoot their way out, and I don't say that they are thinking it. They are most likely thinking that, as you say, it is just a good way to get an arrest. Or they might be thinking that being a confrontational jerk is a 'perk of the job'. Or they may really be a racist and just want to play the 'better than' card on some genetic inferiors.

But underlying all this behavior without consequences is the very real fact that if the situation does get out of hand they do have a gun and the law on their side.

Looking at what can be found of police killing statistics, it seems American police find themselves resorting to fatal measures at upwards of one hundred times more often than comparable countries*. As much as I can sympathise with officers who find themselves in that sort of situation, that statistic is absolutely shocking.Do you really think this has nothing to do with how police there handle certain types of situations? All just "gun culture" or something?

And that's why they don't all need to be dressed up like stormtroopers with all their gear and where better training would help. If they didn't have all of this gear to fall back on if they get into a conflict and more emphasis was put on de-escalating situations things would probably be different.

You wouldn't have all of these cops running around that expect complete submission. They would cut people some slack, rather than escalate the situation at the very first sign of resistance.

I've already agreed. That doesn't change that there is another bottom line, which is if the cop had done his job right Brown wouldn't have gotten shot. Brown's error was fatal...to Brown. That's self correcting. Wilson's error was also fatal...to Brown, and if it weren't for the riots wouldn't have received any correction at all..

Just because the cop escalates the situation doesn't mean you need to respond by also escalating the conflict. That is where your reason should kick in and you should submit because it's not a fight you are going to win.

What are you claiming that Wilson did to escalate the situation?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What are you claiming that Wilson did to escalate the situation?

I have personally been in two conflicts in which a car door was used as a weapon, both times by me. I've seen a half dozen more. There is nothing on this Earth that would lead me to put my body in a car door's path with anyone but my immediate family in a position to slam it on me, and not even some of them. I exercise more judgement getting out of a car at the grocery store than Wilson used getting out at an investigative stop.

Anyone in the business of conflict (ie, cops) should know better than to give someone such a weapon, and I've put on my 'reasonable' face and talked to local cops from three different departments who acknowledged that it was part of their training to never put themselves in the situation Wilson put himself in. Either he was poorly trained by both police departments he worked for, he was too stupid to train, or he just didn't care because in the end he has a gun.


By the way, I don't care if the other guy has a gun...you give me first shot with a car door I will win unless he already has it in his hand, and maybe even then.

 

[civman110]

I have personally been in two conflicts in which a car door was used as a weapon, both times by me...

I exercise more judgement getting out of a car at the grocery store than Wilson used getting out at an investigative stop.

Anyone in the business of conflict (ie, cops) should know better than to give someone such a weapon, and I've put on my 'reasonable' face and talked to local cops from three different departments who acknowledged that it was part of their training to never put themselves in the situation Wilson put himself in. Either he was poorly trained by both police departments he worked for, he was too stupid to train, or he just didn't care because in the end he has a gun.

So he didn't escalate the situation. Brown did. Wilson was just sloppy and Brown took advantage of that?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So he didn't escalate the situation. Brown did. Wilson was just sloppy and Brown took advantage of that?

He was sloppy and Brown died for that.

People in life or death situations work very hard at not making mistakes, but less so when the life in question is someone else's...and even less so when the life in question is 'just a...'

The federal investigation reveals that in the FPD there was a pervasive environment that would consider Michael Brown very much a 'just a...' rather than a life that really merited their best effort.

 

[civman110]

He was sloppy and Brown died for that.

Well if all Wilson did is get out of his car improperly I really don't think it's fair to blame Brown's death on him, when Brown attacked Wilson for no apparent reason.

People in life or death situations work very hard at not making mistakes, but less so when the life in question is someone else's...and even less so when the life in question is 'just a...'

That's not a fair statement. He got out of his car improperly. It's not horribly reckless behaviour. Brown chose to turn it into a life or death situation.

The federal investigation reveals that in the FPD there was a pervasive environment that would consider Michael Brown very much a 'just a...' rather than a life that really merited their best effort.

Which is a separate issue from the Michael Brown case.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Which is a separate issue from the Michael Brown case.

How? Wilson worked in that environment every day. There is no reason to think he was unaffected by it, or for that matter that he wasn't an active participant in it. So how is it separate?

As to 'getting out of his car improperly' being 'all' that he did to contribute to the situation...how much do we consider 'just acceptable error' from a cop? I've had life and death jobs, and I can tell you that the people I worked with had zero tolerance for making mistakes, and so did I. So here we have a cop making a mistake, and somebody died.

Sure, the guy made the situation worse. You say 'he shouldn't have taken the opportunity to attack the cop', I say 'once you start you can't let up', so one way or another we agree Brown made the situation worse for himself. But nobody, least of all his fellow cops, seems inclined to mention that if Wilson hadn't screwed it up in the first place that would most likely have been the routine investigative stop that it was meant to be. While screwing up isn't murder, if you screw up and somebody dies there should be some sort of consequence, yes?