Ferguson

[Timsup2nothin]

It happens to whites too, jut doesn't make the news as often. Also it is important to note that the information that came out about Ferguson in the beginning has been thoroughly disproven by physical evidence. Simply put some eye witnesses intentionally lied and activists misrepresented the facts.

What I don't like about the whole Ferguson thing is that it has been politicised and once things are turned into political footballs they are never meant to be solved.

Both whites and blacks do not want a militarized police force, or racist rogue cops, but pitting whites against blacks, which is what has been done here by the government, media, and Ferguson activists is only going to exacerbate the problem.

Wanna take a wild guess what the forensic "evidence" would have shown in this case had the video not shown up first?

This idea that:

1) Cops who work the system for a living don't know how to get away with murder

2) Cops in the forensics lab are any less interested in blue unity than the rest of them are

3) Physical evidence is a 'truth' that doesn't involve any sort of interpretation

is totally baseless.

 

[civman110]

I don't understand what your point is and I think we may be talking about two different incidents.

 

[sophie]

Someone in the comments section of that article provided a link to the actual Post & Courier article that preceded the release of the video. The article features a department photo of the officer in the lead, remarks on the officer's 'honorable' military service, and notes that "one lawmaker said the episode again points out the need for body-mounted cameras whose footage can stave off community speculation."

Dude's gonna get acquitted, isn't he?

 

[EgonSpengler]

It happens to whites too, jut doesn't make the news as often. Also it is important to note that the information that came out about Ferguson in the beginning has been thoroughly disproven by physical evidence. Simply put some eye witnesses intentionally lied and activists misrepresented the facts.

What I don't like about the whole Ferguson thing is that it has been politicised and once things are turned into political footballs they are never meant to be solved.

Both whites and blacks do not want a militarized police force, or racist rogue cops, but pitting whites against blacks, which is what has been done here by the government, media, and Ferguson activists is only going to exacerbate the problem.

The U.S. Dept. of Justice's full report on Ferguson is 105 pages long, so obviously I can't provide much of it here, but there are some excerpts from the summary below. In short, it isn't about one incident, and it isn't a few 'rogue' cops. Ferguson was something like the 20th police department formally investigated by the Justice Department and, iirc, all 20 were found to have systemic problems. As for "pitting whites against blacks", I haven't felt, heard, or seen anything of that sort myself (I'm white, if that wasn't obvious by now ).

This investigation has revealed a pattern or practice of unlawful conduct within the Ferguson Police Department that violates the First, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution, and federal statutory law.

Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans. The evidence shows that discriminatory intent is part of the reason for these disparities.

This culture within FPD influences officer activities in all areas of policing, beyond just ticketing. Officers expect and demand compliance even when they lack legal authority. They are inclined to interpret the exercise of free-speech rights as unlawful disobedience, innocent movements as physical threats, indications of mental or physical illness as belligerence. Police supervisors and leadership do too little to ensure that officers act in accordance with law and policy, and rarely respond meaningfully to civilian complaints of officer misconduct. The result is a pattern of stops without reasonable suspicion and arrests without probable cause in violation of the Fourth Amendment; infringement on free expression, as well as retaliation for protected expression, in violation of the First Amendment; and excessive force in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

 

[civman110]

However, what you have quoted has nothing to do with the Michael Brown case. Lets not muddy the waters by confusing the two.

The DOJ excerpt you posted doesn't go into specifics either so it's hard to know what exactly they are talking about.

"Officers expect and demand compliance even when they lack legal authority. They are inclined to interpret the exercise of free-speech rights as unlawful disobedience, innocent movements as physical threats, indications of mental or physical illness as belligerence. Police supervisors and leadership do too little to ensure that officers act in accordance with law and policy, and rarely respond meaningfully to civilian complaints of officer misconduct. "

Because this ^ isn't exactly a white vs. black issue. Anyone no matter what your race who has had contact with police can attest to this.

 

[Tigranes]

BTW is there any info on that other cop in the video? He's very likely an accessory to murder, and it would be a shame if people let him off the hook.

My post does have some info on that officer. WHat else do you want to know about him?

 

[EgonSpengler]

However, what you have quoted has nothing to do with the Michael Brown case. Lets not muddy the waters by confusing the two.

I agree with you. This isn't about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, in the sense that it's not just about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. It's much, much bigger than that.

The DOJ excerpt you posted doesn't go into specifics either so it's hard to know what exactly they are talking about.

No it's not. You can read the report.

"Officers expect and demand compliance even when they lack legal authority. They are inclined to interpret the exercise of free-speech rights as unlawful disobedience, innocent movements as physical threats, indications of mental or physical illness as belligerence. Police supervisors and leadership do too little to ensure that officers act in accordance with law and policy, and rarely respond meaningfully to civilian complaints of officer misconduct. "

Because this ^ isn't exactly a white vs. black issue. Anyone no matter what your race who has had contact with police can attest to this.

Why did you skip over the part that says "Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans"? That seems pretty unambiguous to me. But again, I don't disagree with you, cops can be tools to anyone. As I said earlier, being mentally ill around cops is almost as dangerous as being black around them.

 

[hangman]

My post does have some info on that officer. WHat else do you want to know about him?

I meant as far as charges go. It's common in cases like this for the police/justice system to pin all the blame on one person and let a lot of other smaller (but still problematic) crimes slip by.

Why did you skip over the part that says "Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans"?

My guess would be that conservative cognitive dissonance is so high in this case that the only way not to reassess their worldview is to compartmentalize this into ignoring a pattern that's obvious to an unbiased observer.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Dude's gonna get acquitted, isn't he?

Yeah, if you believe that past behavior is indicative of future behavior, there isn't much reason to be optimistic.

 

[sophie]

Yeah, if you believe that past behavior is indicative of future behavior, there isn't much reason to be optimistic.

If Eric Garner's murderer can get off scot-free, anything is possible.

 

[civman110]

I agree with you. This isn't about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, in the sense that it's not just about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. It's much, much bigger than that.

No you don't agree with me at all.

My problem with what you said is that you are connecting this DOJ report with the Michael Brown case when it is not connected. DOJ found no wrong doing on Darren Wilson's
part after 3-4 autopsies and a thorough investigation. The physical evidence proved that "eye witnesses" were not telling the truth.

If you want to talk about police over-reaches. I'm more than willing to discuss that, but like I said lets not muddy the waters here before the discussion even begins.

No it's not. You can read the report.

You have based your opinion entirely on vague generalized statements by the DOJ who politicized this whole issue. I bet you don't know one specific instance that's mentioned in that entire report.

Can you name one example?

Why did you skip over the part that says "Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans"? That seems pretty unambiguous to me.

Based on what? What you posted provides no specifics.

I'm not saying it didn't happened. I just want to know WHY the reports says that and what is the severity of these disparities.

 

[sophie]

Based on what? What you posted provides no specifics.

I'm not saying it didn't happened. I just want to know WHY the reports says that and what is the severity of these disparities.

Have you not read any of the internal Ferguson PD email correspondences?

The data in the Ferguson report about ticketing statistics?

Anything at all?


Link to video.

 

[civman110]

A parody video from John Oliver is not proof of anything. I have no idea why you would post that.

If racist e-mails is all they have to go on that's really not much proof at all. It surely doesn't prove that African-Americans have been adversely effected by the e-mails. It proves some police are racist, but everyone already knows that.

And more African-Americans were ticketed? That's not a severe disparity and how did they prove that more tickets is because of racism?

That could literally be because of 100 different factors. What is the demographic breakdown of Ferguson? Are there more blacks than whites? Do blacks more commonly let their insurance and inspections lapse? Is this a result of poverty? Or are blacks stopped and pulled over by police more regularly? Is this the result of racism, or a higher police presence in black neighbourhoods? Were the tickets justified, or unjustified? Why is this?

Just because blacks received more tickets isn't evidence of wrong-doing. Do you understand what I'm saying? I want to know the facts so I can make an informed decision, rather than a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[EgonSpengler]

My problem with what you said is that you are connecting this DOJ report with the Michael Brown case when it is not connected.

I certainly haven't done that today, but this thread is 64 pages long. Are you referring to something I wrote a while back? I'm not going to go back and review the entire thing.

If you want to talk about police over-reaches. I'm more than willing to discuss that, but like I said lets not muddy the waters here before the discussion even begins.



You have based your opinion entirely on vague generalized statements by the DOJ who politicized this whole issue. I bet you don't know one specific instance that's mentioned in that entire report.

Can you name one example?

Well, here are three four:

Spoiler :

FPD’s pattern of excessive force includes using ECWs in a manner that is unconstitutional, abusive, and unsafe. For example, in August 2010, a lieutenant used an ECW in drive-stun mode against an African-American woman in the Ferguson City Jail because she had refused to remove her bracelets.18 The lieutenant resorted to his ECW even though there were five officers present and the woman posed no physical threat.

Similarly, in November 2013, a correctional officer fired an ECW at an African-American woman’s chest because she would not follow his verbal commands to walk toward a cell. The woman, who had been arrested for driving while intoxicated, had yelled an insulting remark at the officer, but her conduct amounted to verbal noncompliance or passive resistance at most. Instead of attempting hand controls or seeking assistance from a state trooper who was also present, the correctional officer deployed the ECW because the woman was “not doing as she was told.” When another FPD officer wrote up the formal incident report, the reporting officer wrote that the woman “approached [the correctional officer] in a threatening manner.” This “threatening manner” allegation appears nowhere in the statements of the correctional officer or witness trooper. The woman was charged with Disorderly Conduct, and the correctional officer soon went on to become an officer with another law enforcement agency.

These are not isolated incidents. In September 2012, an officer drive-stunned an African-American woman who he had placed in the back of his patrol car but who had stretched out her leg to block him from closing the door. The woman was in handcuffs. In May 2013, officers drive-stunned a handcuffed African-American man who verbally refused to get out of the back seat of a police car once it had arrived at the jail. The man did not physically resist arrest or attempt to assault the officers. According to the man, he was also punched in the face and head. That allegation was neither reported by the involved officers nor investigated by their supervisor, who dismissed it.

Again, the report is 105 pages. I'm not posting the entire thing here.

I'm not saying it didn't happened. I just want to know WHY the reports says that and what is the severity of these disparities.

Fine. Good. Read the report. Let us know what you find.

 

[EgonSpengler]

If Eric Garner's murderer can get off scot-free, anything is possible.

I like to think that progress is a lot of 3-steps-foward-2-steps-back. The officer who gunned down Akai Gurley was indicted in February. I don't know where that case stands, atm. I'm keeping my proverbial fingers crossed, at any rate.

 

[civman110]

Fine. Good. Read the report. Let us know what you find.

So you haven't read it then? I'm asking you because you're the one who keeps referring to the report.


"These are not isolated incidents. In September 2012, an officer drive-stunned an African-American woman who he had placed in the back of his patrol car but who had stretched out her leg to block him from closing the door. The woman was in handcuffs. In May 2013, officers drive-stunned a handcuffed African-American man who verbally refused to get out of the back seat of a police car once it had arrived at the jail. The man did not physically resist arrest or attempt to assault the officers. According to the man, he was also punched in the face and head. That allegation was neither reported by the involved officers nor investigated by their supervisor, who dismissed it."

^ This is what I mean. I want want the police officers who do things like this to be held accountable just as much as anyone else.

I just get frustrated with this whole situation because I find everyone just gets so entrenched in one camp, or the other. You have the people who believe that the police can do no wrong, then you have others that are so anti-police, and then you have white people hating on blacks, and blacks hating on whites.

I don't see why people have to pick sides. Just solve these issues on a case by case basis because nobody wants racist and rogue cops. Sweeping generalizations and blanket statements don't help. It just pits different groups against each other unnecessarily.

I certainly haven't done that today, but this thread is 64 pages long. Are you referring to something I wrote a while back?

"This isn't about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, in the sense that it's not just about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. It's much, much bigger than that."

^ It may not have been your intention to connect the DOJ report to the Michael Brown case, but that was certainly the impression that your statement gave.

 

[EgonSpengler]

So you haven't read it then? I'm asking you because you're the one who keeps referring to the report.

If you want to know what's in the report, read the report. I'm not here to summarize it for you. I've provided a few illustrative excerpts, that's all.

I just get frustrated with this whole situation because I find everyone just gets so entrenched in one camp of the other. You have the people who believe that the police can do no wrong, then you have others that are so anti-police, and then you have white people hating on blacks, and blacks hating on whites.

I don't see why people have to pick sides. Just solve these issues on a case by case basis because nobody wants racist and rogue cops. Sweeping generalizations and blanket statements don't help.

These aren't just individual incidents, they're part of a widespread pattern. As for picking sides, yes, I suppose I am picking sides. I'm on the side opposed to people who abuse their authority, violate the Constitution, steal, bully, and kill.

"This isn't about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson, in the sense that it's not just about Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. It's much, much bigger than that."

^ It may not have been your intention to connect the DOJ report to the Michael Brown case, but that was certainly the impression that your statement gave.

Yes, if you're focused on any one of these cases, you're missing the larger picture.

 

[Traitorfish]

It happens to whites too, jut doesn't make the news as often. Also it is important to note that the information that came out about Ferguson in the beginning has been thoroughly disproven by physical evidence. Simply put some eye witnesses intentionally lied and activists misrepresented the facts.

This is an odd post. "It happens to white people too", followed by an argument that it doesn't happen to black people in the first place. Having your cake and eating it, there, no bonus points for sincerity of argument.

Both whites and blacks do not want a militarized police force, or racist rogue cops, but pitting whites against blacks, which is what has been done here by the government, media, and Ferguson activists is only going to exacerbate the problem.

It's only "pitting blacks against whites" so long as whites continue to identify with white killers over black victims.

 

[civman110]

If you want to know what's in the report, read the report. I'm not here to summarize it for you. I've provided a few illustrative excerpts, that's all.

No you haven't provided any examples.

You have provided generalized vague statements by the DOJ and one specific incidence from someone else's post. You certainly haven't provided any compelling evidence that would convince me that your claims are true.

These aren't just individual incidents, they're part of a widespread pattern.

You have not said anything that would prove so thus far.

As for picking sides, yes, I suppose I am picking sides. I'm on the side opposed to people who abuse their authority, violate the Constitution, steal, bully, and kill.

Yes, if you're focused on any one of these cases, you're missing the larger picture.

This is my point. To you the larger picture is one big sweeping generalization.

What I am saying is that there are injustices in the police force, but lets not make it into a race issue unless we can prove that it is one. Also lets not smear the entire police force for the action of a few. Until people are willing to sit down and rationally examine the facts problems aren't going to be solved.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't understand what your point is and I think we may be talking about two different incidents.

We aren't talking about two different incidents, because I'm not talking about any specific incident.

I'm talking about your casual commentary that "physical evidence proves" whatever you think it has proven.

If I shoot someone, because I have been in the "education by incarceration" system I have a pretty good idea what evidence can be used to convict me, and I've done a fair amount of research on what to do about that evidence. I will have a fairly short time to exercise that knowledge, because when the first cop sets foot in the area I need to not be there.

If a cop shoots someone they have a ton more education than I have about evidence, and far more hands on experience with what can be done to dispose of it. They don't need to be in any hurry, because even though the scene of the shooting is going to be declared a crime scene, no one on that scene is going to be investigating the shooting. They are going to be checking every possible shred of anything that might be evidence of the incident offense that got the criminal shot.

Then there is the lab. Staffed by people who have to work with their 'brother officers' every day. They also are going to focus primarily on the incident offense. Unless there is some extraordinary public pressure applied their interest in investigating the shooting is minimal, at best. You talk about federal investigations in Ferguson, and by the time the first feds arrived the crime scene had been trodden by at least a score of FPD and StLouis County boots, and exposed to weather for most of a night and day. The only physical evidence of consequence was collected or trampled by the locals. So the feds work with what they get.

Then there's lawyers. I shoot someone, I call JR and hope he'll work pro bono. A cop shoots someone he has a defense team supplied by the cop union. I face a prosecutor who wants my scalp just on general principles even if they don't really think I shot anyone. The cop faces a prosecutor who may already have an established record of torpedoing his own cases when it comes to prosecuting cops. My prosecutor is going to drive the local cops to turn over every rock, the cop's prosecutor is going to tell prospective witnesses "have you really considered the consequences of testifying against a police officer?"

Bottom line, your casual acceptance of "well the truth came out and blah blah blah" about the Ferguson case, or any case involving a cop, is just mind bending myopia.