Ferguson

[Senethro]

No, "I will submit an acknowledgement that cases do occur wherein an officer exceeds his authority, abuses his power, and/or commits some other travesty"

so you think that cop should kill their victim quickly if they resist the travesty

correct?

or did I misinterpret what you said?

No, looks about right to me. Keep in mind this is the guy who also says:

Speaking to my own opinion on the matter, I do not have a problem with law enforcement agents stomping people's guts out if they resist arrest or using deadly force if they assault an officer. Disorder should not be tolerated.

All of which is in stark contrast to this post from the last time JohnRM was active. Unsurprisingly much of this activity was in Trayvon Martin threads. And now hes come back and posting mostly in a particular two threads.

1: Do you think what happened between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was a tragedy?

Of course, in so many ways. Regardless if the facts of the case, I am a Christian man who is forgiving. No matter who is at fault, this is not the kind of life and circumstances that anyone would want for themselves or their loved ones.

2: Do you think GZ did anything wrong?

The evidence provided does not contradict Zimmerman's story, or stories, as the case may be. If I were Zimmerman, I would have identified myself in a friendly way as soon as possible to discourage the individual from believing that I were a threat.

3: Do you think Trayvon did anything wrong?

We have no idea how or why the confrontation began. Zimmerman lost sight of Martin at one point. He didn't track the kid down. Martin was perfectly capable of outrunning him. Somehow, at some point, Martin found himself confronting Zimmerman and I don't know why that is. I think that it is more likely that Martin stuck around and initiated the confrontation. I have no idea who actually provoked the struggle. If I were Martin, I would have run and not stopped running until I got home.


It cannot be proven that either of these individuals committed a crime. It may be that neither of them did. Our laws are not perfect. Bad things can happen where no one is at fault.

4: Do you think there has been a lot (not minor outliers) of racially tinged language used in defense of GZ?

I am not sure I understand. I do not believe that the defense had any racist motivations whatsoever.

5: Why do you think people are disappointed by the verdict?

Because they don't understand the details and the particulars of the case. They don't identify with what George Zimmerman was doing. They don't see a need for a person to defend his own neighborhood from crime. They are under the delusion that the police can do the job adequately. The reality is that they cannot and citizens have accordingly been given the right in many states to defend themselves, and others, from crime, if necessary. George Zimmerman claims it was necessary to defend himself. There is no evidence to prove otherwise. But, again, people don't believe that he ought to have that right and instead of trying to change the law, they erroneously believe that Zimmerman should have been thrown in jail, regardless. They see the court system as a justice system based on morality and not laws.

Are you feeling alright JohnRM? Are these really the posts of a Christian who has further than the old testament?

Bonus racism:

It would just be nice if certain blacks would show the same outrage over the murder of a black by another black as they do when a white is the killer. If a white guy kills a black, they blame it on racism. If a black guy kills a black, they blame it on guns, which of course is the white's fault as well, cause we put guns in the black community so they can kill each other...cause we're racist. I'm sick of it. Sometimes people just kill each other because they're stupid.

Thats right, its the "stupid" blacks to blame.

 

[Senethro]

Anyone else wanna salute the Imperial Flag right about now and chant,

"May death come swiftly!"

"May death come swiftly!"

"May death come swiftly!"

Maybe we can goosestep a little!

I mean usually the bigots on this forum are not so cartoonishly racist and villainous as this.

 

[JohnRM]

No, looks about right to me. Keep in mind this is the guy who also says:



All of which is in stark contrast to this post from the last time JohnRM was active. Unsurprisingly much of this activity was in Trayvon Martin threads. And now hes come back and posting mostly in a particular two threads.



Are you feeling alright JohnRM? Are these really the posts of a Christian who has further than the old testament?

Bonus racism:


Thats right, its the "stupid" blacks to blame.

Oh, I am indeed not the same person as I was then. Much has changed. That name no longer holds any meaning for me.

Anyone else wanna salute the Imperial Flag right about now and chant,

"May death come swiftly!"

"May death come swiftly!"

"May death come swiftly!"

Maybe we can goosestep a little!

I mean usually the bigots on this forum are not so cartoonishly racist and villainous as this.

Ah yes, the unmistakable hiss of one who has lost his cool and, by extension, the argument.

 

[Berzerker]

I will submit an acknowledgement that cases do occur wherein an officer exceeds his authority, abuses his power, and/or commits some other travesty, but they are a minute fraction of the lot. Furthermore, even in those cases, it typically does not end in death or dismemberment, because most people are smart enough not to resist. For those that do, I have no sympathy and zero tolerance. May death come swiftly.

sounded like you think innocent people better just take the beating and hope the cop doesn't kill them and if they resist you'd have no problem if the cop did kill them.

 

[Senethro]

Oh, I am indeed not the same person as I was then. Much has changed. That name no longer holds any meaning for me.

If you're going with just kidding all along, is the racism playing up to your avatar as well then?

Ah yes, the unmistakable hiss of one who has lost his cool and, by extension, the argument.

Is this an argument or your comedy wagon? Make up your mind.

And you're wrong, creepy worship of authority and racism are most definitely worth expressing emotion over, to say the least.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you resist arrest, I do not have a problem with a cop beating you senseless, if that is what it takes to make the arrest. If you resist by assaulting an officer, I do not have a problem with the officer using deadly force, if he feels that it is the most appropriate action to take. I will not ask him to put himself at greater risk with alternatives to deadly force.

Do you see that this is a problem?

The witness against you in the 'resisting arrest' claim is the person who beat you senseless, and because of his occupation his testimony will automatically carry more weight then yours.

His testimony that deadly force was required will absolutely carry more weight than yours, being as you are dead and all.

 

[JohnRM]

Do you see that this is a problem?

The witness against you in the 'resisting arrest' claim is the person who beat you senseless, and because of his occupation his testimony will automatically carry more weight then yours.

His testimony that deadly force was required will absolutely carry more weight than yours, being as you are dead and all.

That is the price we pay for an orderly society. If you prefer the alternative, feel free to relocate to Somalia.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Or not. The majority of the FPD do not live in Ferguson. Another thing that makes one wonder exactly who they mean when they say they are protecting their community.

Well I hope they at least live in the Ferguson area, if they don't actually live in the city limits. I would be surprised if many of them, if any at all, live on the other side of the state.....

 

[JohnRM]

sounded like you think innocent people better just take the beating and hope the cop doesn't kill them and if they resist you'd have no problem if the cop did kill them.

That is not quite what I am saying. If you are innocent or the cops are overstepping in some way, it is not wise, nor should it be encouraged, for a person to resist arrest or assault an officer. Accept what is happening and pursue your legal and respectable avenues of redressing the matter. There a myriad of rights groups waiting to take up your cause, whatever the case may be. It doesn't even had to be credible in any way.

Or you can resist with force and face a beating or death. The choice is yours, but particularly if the abuse of power is that of force to begin with, what makes you think that resisting won't simply escalate and that a beating won't turn into a shooting? I understand that it is hard to think these things through in the moment, but it is incumbent upon those who are likely to suffer the consequences to protect themselves from possible harm. If you are waiting for the system to be perfectly fair and reasonable...you can wish in one hand and crap in the other. See which one fills up first.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That is the price we pay for an orderly society. If you prefer the alternative, feel free to relocate to Somalia.

Actually, that is the price we pay for failing to regulate the police. Allowing prosecutors to just say no when it comes time to prosecute a police officer, for example. Allowing crime scene techs to just say no to investigating a potential crime scene if the potential criminal is a cop, for another. Allowing cops to just not report crimes that are committed right in front of them if it is committed by a cop, and then suffer no consequences for the lapse of enforcement if they get caught at it is a third.

If you think allowing the occasional shooting of a citizen to go uninvestigated is 'the price we pay for an orderly society' you are being badly overcharged.

 

[JohnRM]

^And so you believe that Darren Wilson should sacrificed on the altar of public opinion, due to the perceived systemic problems with law enforcement in this country, regardless of the fact that all the evidence, and a grand jury, supports his innocence. Is that what you're telling me?

Are you saying that these problem justify violent resistance to arrest?

What is the end game here?

 

[Angst]

Let's assume that a guy carrying a large crate of M:tG cards at three AM has put a good bit of effort into (legally) acquiring them. How would that person be expected to react to an order to "drop the box"? That is almost certainly the order that a black guy with a box at three am in my neighborhood is going to hear, and most likely a white guy since a white guy out at three am in my neighborhood 'must be some sort of criminal or he would be cowering indoors because of the image law enforcement has created that there is a killer on every corner'.

Bending over to set the box down is not complying.

Responding that the ground is wet and the contents of the box will be damaged would be refusing to comply.

Bending over and setting the box down could be interpreted as trying to retrieve a weapon from the box, so a shooting, should it occur, will be almost certainly ruled as justified and have no consequences for the officer involved.

That's my reality, but it isn't justice.

I was trying to say something approximately like that; that was my impression of how it'd be to be black; your examples to how difficult it is to comply "peacefully" are great.

I would personally of course have an issue dropping the box into a puddle. Magic cards are crazy expensive cardboard. In Denmark, I'd easily get away with slowly putting it down or telling the police officers I need to put it elsewhere. I think I'd also get away with it as an Arabian immigrant (we do have race issues here as well). I specifically imagined black Americans would have no such liberties. Do you think whites are also treated this way?

Anyways: this is the exact reason I'm worried about the police's education or procedure in America. So your examples are great.

May I ask, are you black yourself? Are you from America? What is your experience with your regional police?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

^And so you believe that Darren Wilson should sacrificed on the altar of public opinion, due to the perceived systemic problems with law enforcement in this country, regardless of the fact that all the evidence, and a grand jury, supports his innocence. Is that what you're telling me?

Are you saying that these problem justify violent resistance to arrest?

What is the end game here?

I've never drawn any conclusion regarding Darren Wilson's guilt or lack thereof. Neither has the justice system as it is designed to operate because the prosecutor assigned declined to prosecute the case properly while simultaneously refusing to stand aside and let someone else do it. This is not just a 'perceived systemic problem', this is an event which has just been played out in front of national media.

In the event of an obvious failure in our judicial system corrective action, either through higher court or violent uprising, is the only course. It remains to be seen whether the federal courts will take action against the prosecutor and those who investigated this shooting. I have hope, but far more doubt.

 

[tetley]

I have a feeling the feds will step in and come out looking like the angels.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

May I ask, are you black yourself? Are you from America? What is your experience with your regional police?

Nope, I'm the white guy.

Yes, I live in California USA.

I have been forced to 'comply or be shot' by a police officer who when directly asked if what I had done to upset him was a crime acknowledged that indeed it was not...in a parking lot, in broad daylight. Since he had immediately drawn his weapon as he got out of his car I had every reason to believe that he would indeed shoot me despite having acknowledged that I had committed no crime. Fortunately, by engaging in a clearly polite but very loud conversation I was able to attract a sufficient crowd, and lay out the case that they would need to make, so that had he shot me even the most diligent cop protecting prosecutor would have been hard pressed to get him off, so I survived.

 

[JohnRM]

I've never drawn any conclusion regarding Darren Wilson's guilt or lack thereof. Neither has the justice system as it is designed to operate because the prosecutor assigned declined to prosecute the case properly while simultaneously refusing to stand aside and let someone else do it. This is not just a 'perceived systemic problem', this is an event which has just been played out in front of national media.

In the event of an obvious failure in our judicial system corrective action, either through higher court or violent uprising, is the only course. It remains to be seen whether the federal courts will take action against the prosecutor and those who investigated this shooting. I have hope, but far more doubt.

Very well, but I will have you know that if you choose the higher court, I will support your right to pursue that course and receive a fair hearing. If you choose violent uprising, I will favor the use of arms to put down the insurrection and restore order. I would favor hanging those leaders who survive, before the public, and sending their followers to prison to endure hard labor for the rest of their lives.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have a feeling the feds will step in and come out looking like the angels.

Given that everyone else involved has volunteered for the role of demons that won't be too hard.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Very well, but I will have you know that if you choose the higher court, I will support your right to pursue that course and receive a fair hearing. If you choose violent uprising, I will favor the use of arms to put down the insurrection and restore order. I would favor hanging those leaders who survive, before the public, and sending their followers to prison to endure hard labor for the rest of their lives.

In short, you agree there is a problem with the judicial system but if the problem is great enough that the judicial system cannot be used to repair itself then we are just all screwed and will have to live with it.

See, the problem being demonstrated is that there may not be a fair hearing to be had.

Then what?

 

[tetley]

Just giving up and accepting oppression is not American. Let alone is being the tyrant.

 

[JohnRM]

In short, you agree there is a problem with the judicial system but if the problem is great enough that the judicial system cannot be used to repair itself then we are just all screwed and will have to live with it.

See, the problem being demonstrated is that there may not be a fair hearing to be had.

Then what?

I agree that the justice system is not perfect, but that it is not a systemic issue. I also would not agree that the justice system cannot be used to redress the problems. However, even if that were the case, there are other routes beyond the justice system to redress these problems. You can always approach it from the legislative angle, for instance. At the end of the day, I feel as though most people are lazy, cowardly, and ill-informed and take the quick, easy path straight to violence and disorder, which should not be tolerated. If the choice is between the mob and those that keep the lights on, I support those that keep the lights on. If Watts, Los Angeles, or Ferguson is any indication, I will have chosen wisely.

Just giving up and accepting oppression is not American. Let alone is being the tyrant.

There is no given thing that is 'American'. It is not a static concept. If it were, the blacks would still be chattel and beatings would be mandatory. As it were, we have evolved for the better.