Ferguson

[Borachio]

It is. And inevitable. As I'm sure you know. QED.

 

[warpus]

Borachio sits securely in my "Whatevershire" category. So far there isn't anyone else in it, though.

 

[Senethro]

Nice of you to lump everyone in categories. It must be convenient.

J

What does this even mean?

 

[Gary Childress]

Arguably, civil society is about enabling liberty, by providing a framework in which people can act freely without fear of being clubbed and eaten.

Or maybe they're both true, that civil society means trading some liberties for other liberties.

S'complicated.

"Liberty" is such a complicated word to articulate, as you point out. Is liberty a plural, though? Is it proper to say, "I possess liberties" or is it proper to say, "I possess liberty?" Or (again) is it both, either/or, or whatever?

In the former sense I could say that my particular liberty to punch someone is curtailed so that my particular liberty to lead a peaceful and comfortable life without being punched is enhanced.

In the later sense liberty seems to be a kind of general, overall assessment of a state of affairs. So for example, I may say that I possess "liberty" because I am not chained in a dungeon. On the other hand I may say that I do NOT possess "liberty" because the authorities won't allow me to walk into a grocery store and simply take whatever I want without paying or exchanging something for it. Then we may get into an infinite quibble over whether the glass is "half empty" or "half full".

What exactly is "liberty"? Is it simply an imperfect label we apply to a set of phenomena in the world that isn't so easily labeled by us humans?

At it's most basic the world is maybe matter in motion. Then we humans come along and apply complex principles to all this matter in motion to give it meaning for us.

 

[Borachio]

What does this even mean?

You know, it puzzled me.

I felt it must surely be something I should take negatively. It just had that "tone" about it.

And in response to a comment of mine which was blatantly and hyperbolically ironic, I was left rather mystified.

 

[tetley]

Check out the latest stories of undercover officers in California posing as protesters being outed. They have been caught on video trying to incite looting. Ferguson protesters reporting the same thing, but I'm not aware of anyone in Ferguson coming forward with video. Sorry, my cut-and-paste of links is broken.

Two cops in Oakland claimed to be "gathering intelligence". Protesters around them saying they were trying to incite violence. When the two tried to walk away, several protesters followed them. One of the cops shoved a protester, the protester shoved back. At which point the other cop drew a gun on the protesters, identified themselves as police officers, and arrested the guy who shoved back for felony assault on a public servant. The cop who shoved the guy in the first place was not arrested. He is who made the arrest.

 

[Hygro]

Check out the latest stories of undercover officers in California posing as protesters being outed. They have been caught on video trying to incite looting. Ferguson protesters reporting the same thing, but I'm not aware of anyone in Ferguson coming forward with video. Sorry, my cut-and-paste of links is broken.

Two cops in Oakland claimed to be "gathering intelligence". Protesters around them saying they were trying to incite violence. When the two tried to walk away, several protesters followed them. One of the cops shoved a protester, the protester shoved back. At which point the other cop drew a gun on the protesters, identified themselves as police officers, and arrested the guy who shoved back for felony assault on a public servant. The cop who shoved the guy in the first place was not arrested. He is who made the arrest.

 

[Gary Childress]

Check out the latest stories of undercover officers in California posing as protesters being outed. They have been caught on video trying to incite looting. Ferguson protesters reporting the same thing, but I'm not aware of anyone in Ferguson coming forward with video. Sorry, my cut-and-paste of links is broken.

Two cops in Oakland claimed to be "gathering intelligence". Protesters around them saying they were trying to incite violence. When the two tried to walk away, several protesters followed them. One of the cops shoved a protester, the protester shoved back. At which point the other cop drew a gun on the protesters, identified themselves as police officers, and arrested the guy who shoved back for felony assault on a public servant. The cop who shoved the guy in the first place was not arrested. He is who made the arrest.

Thanks for the head's up. I was skimming a few articles just now. It appears that the two men in question were not members of the Oakland police so the Oakland police are asking for an investigation into the matter from higher authorities. WTH? Do we seriously live in that kind of society?

EDIT: Found this regarding the issue:

There were similar reports during the protests in St. Louis immediately following the grand jury decision not to indict Darren Wilson. Like the Oakland and Berkeley protesters, Ferguson demonstrators said that police had done at least some of the damage. There’s a video circulating that some say shows an officer setting a car on fire.

There is no question that demonstrators caused a great deal of destruction that night, of course. It’s been clearly shown in plenty of television footage. Whether the video really shows police setting fires to throw protests into a negative light is another question. From the reflection in the store window, it’s clear that there were already fires burning. Oakland Police Lieutenant Chris Bolton responded to the incident on Twitter this morning, saying that the officers were from an outside agency, not Oakland PD, and that an investigation has already been requested. He asked for any evidence to be shared with him for forwarding.

http://www.inquisitr.com/1671917/be...-undercover-officers-tried-to-incite-looting/

 

[Gary Childress]

sorry, double post.

 

[James Stuart]

Didn't the FBI have black officers start a riot during a Martin Luther King peace walk once?

 

[Gary Childress]

Didn't the FBI have black officers start a riot during a Martin Luther King peace walk once?

I found this regarding the FBI and MLK.

Across from the Lorraine Motel, next to the boarding house in which Ray was staying, was a fire station. Police officers were stationed in the fire station to keep King under surveillance.[255] Agents were watching King at the time he was shot.[256] Immediately following the shooting, officers rushed out of the station to the motel. Marrell McCollough, an undercover police officer, was the first person to administer first aid to King.[257] The antagonism between King and the FBI, the lack of an all points bulletin to find the killer, and the police presence nearby led to speculation that the FBI was involved in the assassination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.#Presence_during_the_assassination

I'm ready to give up on our government. Now I see why so many people are so cynical. All they do is meddle and butt in and things backfire on them and this is the result. They should really just mind their own business and leave good people alone.

I mean are there people in high places who actually think they should do these things? If so I would love to hear their justification for it.

 

[JollyRoger]

If someone shoves you, you shouldn't shove back because they might be a cop.

 

[tetley]

Not that it matters, but the constitutional right "peaceably to assemble" I take to mean free of government harassment--not "assemble, so long as you remain peaceful". Court precedent doesn't seem to agree with me, though.

In any event, we have police officers, on video, inciting to riot and committing fraud, while American citizens have to walk on eggshells with their free speech lest they be charged with incitement to riot.

 

[Gary Childress]

Not that it matters, but the constitutional right "peaceably to assemble" I take to mean free of government harassment--not "assemble, so long as you remain peaceful". Court precedent doesn't seem to agree with me, though.

In any event, we have police officers, on video, inciting to riot and committing fraud, while American citizens have to walk on eggshells with their free speech lest they be charged with incitement to riot.

It seems you may be right.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Not sure how I missed this, but Rush Limbaugh was on Fox News Sunday talking about Ferguson and then Eric Gartner in NYC.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2014/12/07/rush_on_fox_news_sunday

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT


WALLACE: Love him or hate him, he's the king of conservative talk radio. Twenty million people listen to him each week on close to 600 stations across the country. Rush Limbaugh joins us now from his EIB Studio in Florida.

Rush, welcome back to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

RUSH: I think it's been since 2009 I was here. So, it's great to be back, Chris. Thank you for having me.

WALLACE: Well, we're delighted to have you. Let's start with the protests across the country in the wake of the grand jury decisions not to indict those police officers. Do you think that those demonstrators have a legitimate beef with police and prosecutors?

RUSH: I think that there is grievance politics in this country that's tearing the country apart, Chris. I think what happened in the grand jury in Ferguson, Missouri, and what happened here in Staten Island does not warrant this because the grand jury rendered a correct verdict in Ferguson. New York is a little bit different, but this would have happened I think no matter what the grand jury in Ferguson said. I think the real thing to note here is that this is tearing the country apart. It is literally ripping our fabric apart. And the president of the United States, one thing about him: He's a great orator. You put the right words on the teleprompter and this man can deliver soaring, inspiring rhetoric. I ask you to remember his 2008 campaign in front of the Styrofoam columns at Denver during the convention speech. If he wants to, he can inspire. And I think it's called for in this situation. This is not good for the country, what's happening here, because it isn't -- I don't think -- full-fledged legitimate. It's not based on real-world grievance. It's grievance that's being amplified and made up. The president, if you ask me, could do a lot to stop this by telling people to respect the criminal justice system. There's nothing here that's designed as they would have you believe to purposely get it wrong, to purposely screw people. It's not the case. And presidents are supposed to be uplifting. They're supposed to be inspiring...


...WALLACE: But you now say that he was not choked, it was not a chokehold. And I guess the question I have, and I ask this with all due respect, we're friends -- what are you talking about that it's not a chokehold?

RUSH: I'm listening to experts in the police departments around the country that I know tell me it's not a chokehold. I'm listening to certain things I've read in the media quoting police officials and those who train police saying that this was not a chokehold. It might have been carotid restriction, but it was not a chokehold. But, Chris, none of this... This all misses the point. What was Eric Garner doing? He was selling cigarettes, loose cigarettes. And the police in New York, because they're so eager for tax collection... What is being done here with regard to taxes and the state's desire to collect them no matter what, how many cops were descended on that situation for cigarettes? How many people smoking marijuana did the cops pass by and ignore on the way to Eric Garner? You've got $13 a carton, $13 a pack in New York City, over $6 of that is taxes. And the authorities are telling the cops, "You go out and you stop that," because they're so intent on collecting tax revenue. I think the real outrage here is that an American died while the state is enforcing tax collection on cigarettes. This is just absurd. And it ... You know, people talk about the left, they want a big state. They want a powerful state. Well, here it is. You've got to take all of it. If you want a powerful state, there's your police force acting on demands of the authorities to go out and make sure that every dime of tax is collected particularly from tobacco. Look how we stigmatize tobacco...

So Obama isn't inspiring and big government acting like big government.
It's not a policing problem.


Also, there is some fun arguing between Fox News and Rush over whether the Government Shutdowns hurt Republicans or not if you want to listen to the whole thing.

 

[Gary Childress]

Not sure how I missed this, but Rush Limbaugh was on Fox News Sunday talking about Ferguson and then Eric Gartner in NYC.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2014/12/07/rush_on_fox_news_sunday



So Obama isn't inspiring and big government acting like big government.
It's not a policing problem.


Also, there is some fun arguing between Fox News and Rush over whether the Government Shutdowns hurt Republicans or not if you want to listen to the whole thing.

As much as I hate to admit it, Limbaugh may have a valid point. A man dies in an altercation with police over the selling of lose cigarettes. Maybe it's the fact that authorities are trying to intervene in people's private affairs at the micro level that put the police as well as Mr. Gartner in this awkward situation to begin with. I mean Gartner was resisting arrest and apparently it was not the police intention to kill him. Maybe the government really is sticking its nose too much in the affairs of average citizens? And maybe it's putting police officers (who really do want to protect and serve their community) in difficult situations?

 

[JollyRoger]

Tax cops for each kill - that'll put a stop to it.

 

[Traitorfish]

As much as I hate to admit it, Limbaugh may have a valid point. A man dies in an altercation with police over the selling of lose cigarettes. Maybe it's the fact that authorities are trying to intervene in people's private affairs at the micro level that put the police as well as Mr. Gartner in this awkward situation to begin with. I mean Gartner was resisting arrest and apparently it was not the police intention to kill him. Maybe the government really is sticking its nose too much in the affairs of average citizens? And maybe it's putting police officers (who really do want to protect and serve their community) in difficult situations?

Or maybe it's all the racism? Maybe the protesters are being sincere when they keep telling you it's about racism? And maybe middle class white people should start listening to working class black people for a change and stop trying to deduct the "real" reasons for these protests? And maybe Rush Limbaugh, of all the people on the planet, is not the best positioned, sociologically, institutionally or politically, to achieve those sorts of insights?

Y'know, maybe.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ya, I've heard over half the cigarettes smoked in New York City are black market.

From April 2014, a few months before Gartner died:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/03/cigarette-smuggling-new-york-_n_5041823.html

"Every store in Brooklyn," the bodega owner said, buys cigarettes from someone who travels down South to states with lower cigarette taxes. In places like Virginia, North Carolina and Delaware, they'll buy cartons containing 10 packs of cigarettes for around $48 a pop, then come back to New York, where local stores will buy them around $55.

"My guy has 100 different businesses he sells to," the bodega owner said, gesturing across the street at a Chinese restaurant, a laundromat and a barbershop. "All three of those stores buy and sell smuggled cigarettes too," he said.

He said a friend makes a weekly trip to North Carolina with $100,000, loads up on cigarettes, then returns to New York. "He makes a million dollars a year," the bodega owner said.

The financial incentive for smuggling cigarettes is clear. If the bodega owner were to go about it the legal way, buying a pack of cigarettes at the wholesale price of $12.50, then retailing that pack for $13, he only makes 50 cents profit.

Each pack of cigarettes smuggled from out of state wholesales for about $5.50. The store owner can still sell those packs for $12.50. But suddenly, he's making a $7 profit.

Other stores, in order to stay competitive, sell cigarettes for cheaper.

Down the street, walk into another bodega and ask for cigarettes, and the clerk will go into a back room to get you a pack. The price: $8.

Walk another block and a different bodega illegally doles out "loosies," single cigarettes, for 75 cents each.

The booming black market for cigarettes in New York City started in the early-2000s, the bodega owner said. In 1997, he said he was selling cigarettes for $2.10 a pack -- the same price as in many other states. Now, less than 20 years later, a combination of federal, state and local taxes have driven the average price of a pack in New York City to $12 to $14.

“The incentive to profit by evading payment of taxes rises with each tax rate hike imposed by federal, state, and local governments,” a Justice Department study in 2009 found. That year, the head the tobacco-diversion division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told The Wall Street Journal that states were losing an estimated $5 billion each year due to cigarette smuggling. New York state alone, according to officials in 2011, was losing $525 million a year.

A new report from the Tax Foundation found that 57 percent of cigarettes consumed in New York state in 2012 were smuggled into the state illegally. That's the highest rate of smuggled cigarettes in the country. New York has the highest state tax on cigarettes and New York City imposes an additional $1.50 levy.

Cracking down on tobacco smuggling has become a priority for New York authorities. Last month, state tax officials busted a Queens man for the "for the illegal transportation, storing and sale of untaxed contraband cigarettes."

Hassan Aidibi, 39, was arrested in the Bronx garage where he allegedly kept more than 900 cartons of smuggled cigarettes.

 

[Hygro]

Somewhere in the back of my mind there's a voice going "when tobacco needs to be smuggled in America, there will be a revolution"