Genesis and Other Creation Myths

[Arakhor]

So he's a god who sees everything but can decide not to see everything which makes him a god that does not see everything unless he does never decide to not see everything, which brings us to the question if God has free will, because we can't tell given that he has apparently never decided to decide differently.

Uppi said what I was going for there, with God as an external observer or with the power to simply choose not to collapse waveforms. Then again, as we all know, the works of God transcend human understanding.

 

[sophie]

You know there are only 8 planets, right?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

So where the ancients using modern definition of planets? Did they only count terrestrial planets? Why didn't they count planets in other solar systems? Or dwarf planets? What about What about big asteroids? Don't forget rogue planets.

Are number games concerning human defined concepts like planet really meaningful?

The term "planet" means "wanderer" and referred to all the "stars" whose positions did not appear fixed relative each other when viewed from the Earth.

Both the Sun and the Moon were considered to be planets.

The modern definition of planet is much more arbitrary, and only a few years old.

 

[Berzerker]

So on day 1 God creates light and darkness. Then 3 days go by, each of them with "morning and evening" meaning "light and darkness". And on day 4 God made two great lights to govern the sky.

Please explain in detail how you manage to rationalize that for 3 days light and darkness existed before the Sun and the Moon were made on day 4.

God didn't create the darkness, the submerged Earth in Gen 1:2 was already in darkness and then God said let there be light and God called the light "Day" and separated it from the darkness called "Night" - the world was spinning. God didn't create the sun and moon, God made them to rule over the day and night.

They were appointed these positions by virtue of appearing in our new sky, thats all. God creates very little in this story, even the critters were brought forth from the Earth and the Earth was merely revealed from under the water, not created in the sense of making something from nothing.

The delay between the separation of light and darkness and the appearance of the sun and moon is a product of a sequence of events that began with whatever produced the Earth from an already existing dark, water covered world. The Earth (dry land) did not exist until day 3 so the lights in its "sky" came next on the 4th Day.

You seem to have missed the somewhat obvious fact that without sun or Earth there would be no 'day' or 'night'. Creating 'light' (the stars, one presumes) does not create 'day'. For that, oddly, one needs a planet (say, Earth) from where to watch its star (in our case, the sun).

Correct, the lights in Earth's sky required the Earth to appear first, it doesn't until the 3rd Day. The story does not claim God created the universe or the sun and moon, only that these lights came to have their roles as a by-product of Earth's new orbit and spin. If the proto-Earth was further from the sun and in darkness then that situation changed with "creation".

The science says our water came from the asteroid belt, I imagine it would have been fairly dark out that far in our very young solar system. Maybe thats why the spinning carcass of Tiamat - night and day - was produced on the 1st Day and Heaven appears on the 2nd Day before Earth on the 3rd and its sky on the 4th, Heaven is the remains of the collision left behind at "the crossing" point between Marduk and Tiamat.

So now we find our water came from the asteroid belt, maybe we came from there too. The collision pushed the Earth into a new, closer orbit where the Sun would rule our days. One of the descriptive biblical words for Heaven is rakia, to spread out something firm. In Mesopotamian cosmology Heaven was the hammered out bracelet. The asteroid belt is the spread out firmament.

So, because Dante's Inferno and Norse mythology each had nine realms, that means ancient Norsemen and mediaeval Italians both knew that there were nine planets in the solar system?

If that is so, why does Dante's Paradiso specifically enumerate just the five planets visible to the naked eye? Dante journeys through the heavens of the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Fixed Stars, the Angels and the realm of the Almighty himself.

Dante's story was informed by the Roman Virgil who was in turn informed by Greek mythology. Democritus, the father of Greek astronomy, traveled to Egypt and Mesopotamia and upon his return told his fellow Greeks there are more worlds than the ones seen with the naked eye. Some planets were visible and some were not, the visible ones were especially significant because they served as signs, time keeping, etc. The unseen ones became the stuff of legend.

So where the ancients using modern definition of planets? Did they only count terrestrial planets? Why didn't they count planets in other solar systems? Or dwarf planets? What about What about big asteroids? Don't forget rogue planets.

No, our definition isn't relevant. They based their cosmology on a story about creation that describes some but not all features of our solar system. The Enuma Elish describes 3 worlds to begin with, Apsu (Sun), his advisor Mummu (Mercury), and Tiamat (proto-Earth covered in water and darkness).

In their midst were born 2 gods, Lahmu and Lahamu (The male and female warrior gods Mars and Venus). As time went on 2 more gods were born beyond the original group, Kishar and Anshar (Jupiter and Saturn) followed by another, their son Anu (Uranus). Nudimmud/Ea (Neptune) was Anu's son and he became the most distant of the original gods.

When on high the heaven had not been named, Firm ground below had not been called by name, When primordial Apsu, their begetter,
And Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all, Their waters mingled as a single body,

No reed hut had sprung forth, no marshland had appeared, None of the gods had been brought into being, And none bore a name, and no destinies determined--Then it was that the gods were formed in the midst of heaven. Lahmu and Lahamu were brought forth, by name they were called.

Before they had grown in age and stature, Anshar and Kishar were formed, surpassing the others. Long were the days, then there came forth.....
Anu was their heir, of his fathers the rival;
Yes, Anshar's first-born, Anu, was his equal.
Anu begot in his image Nudimmud. This Nudimmud was of his fathers the master; Of broad wisdom, understanding, mighty in strength, Mightier by far than his grandfather, Anshar. He had no rival among the gods, his brothers.

Thus were established and were... the great gods.

They disturbed Tiamat as they surged back and forth, Yes, they troubled the mood of Tiamat
By their hilarity in the Abode of Heaven. Apsu could not lessen their clamor And Tiamat was speechless at their ways. Their doings were loathsome unto . . . .Thier way was evil; they were overbearing. Then Apsu, the begetter of the great gods, Cried out, addressing Mummu, his minister:

http://www.crivoice.org/enumaelish.html

This was the setting before creation, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Tiamat, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune all awaiting the arrival of Marduk the creator. Thats 9... When Ea/Nudimmud/Neptune bears a son (Marduk) he describes him as being "clothed with the halo of 10 gods". The text describes migrating planets causing chaos, troubling Tiamat greatly. Astronomers believe the outer gas giants did exactly that, their "destinies" (orbits) were not settled and they moved about.

As a result of this commotion a battle ensued between Tiamat (biblical Tehom) and another celestial god brought forth from beyond the solar system passing by Neptune first. Anshar asked Anu and Ea to battle Tiamat but they would not (like the Aztec myth of God's sons refusing the challenge of restoring order).

Thats when Ea invited Marduk in to battle Tiamat and his destiny (orbit) was proclaimed supreme among the gods. Anshar (Saturn) sent his emissary Gaga (Pluto?) to the other gods to announce Marduk's supremacy. There are some interesting mathematical/orbital relationships between Saturn and Pluto.

At this point Gaga informs Lahmu and Lahamu about the approaching Marduk - the two gods Marduk would not be passing by on his way to carve up Tiamat to form Heaven and Earth. This is a fascinating creation myth, read it like a metaphorical description of the early solar system and a collision between a planet covered by water at what is now the asteroid belt and a "rogue" planet coming into the solar system maybe 4 billion years ago.

If our solar nebula collapsed because of nearby supernova, then maybe some of the material in our solar system arrived a half billion years after the shockwave. How far away would a supernova have to be for its planet to reach us a half billion years later?

Maybe the late heavy bombardment was not caused by asteroids hitting Earth but by the satellites of another planet, and the Moon was a witness to the battle. Maybe thats why the side of the Moon facing us got plastered while the other side didn't.

Since Pluto was demoted, that leaves 8 planets. I can't wait to see what kind of creationist mythology future societies will make up to account for Ceres and the dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt (ie. Sedna, Quaoar, etc.). /sarcasm

Prior to the invention of the telescope, nobody could see any planets farther than Saturn.

Why would our opinion of Pluto matter to people long ago?

 

[JollyRoger]

Did Disney create Pluto or did Pluto evolve or was Pluto intelligently designed?

 

[Birdjaguar]

When I looked at the time line the Bible offers, I did not realize that Noah lived to be 950 (300 years after the flood) and that he probably knew Abram who was only 57 when Noah died. that means that Noah probably told Abraham cool stories of life before the flood and the whole Tower of Babel event after the flood.

 

[Berzerker]

How do I post pics? I'd really like to post the ones I linked in the OP and more.

The term "planet" means "wanderer" and referred to all the "stars" whose positions did not appear fixed relative each other when viewed from the Earth.

Both the Sun and the Moon were considered to be planets.

The modern definition of planet is much more arbitrary, and only a few years old.

My OP link to the Fremont Indian rock art looks like the solar system and the Enuma Elish. They didn't depict the Sun but they do show 3 sheep (Mercury, Venus and Mars) to the left of the horned deity (Tiamat) with 5 more sheep to the right. Thats nine and the hunter with the bow approaches from even further right and below (inclined?). The hunter is the creator shooting an arrow to kill Tiamat.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

When I looked at the time line the Bible offers, I did not realize that Noah lived to be 950 (300 years after the flood) and that he probably knew Abram who was only 57 when Noah died. that means that Noah probably told Abraham cool stories of life before the flood and the whole Tower of Babel event after the flood.

I'm not aware of any ancient tradition of Noah and Abraham meeting, but Orthodox Jews do teach that Melchizedek was another name for Noah's son and Abraham's ancestor Shem.

Shem lived for almost a century before the flood and 500 years after it. Abraham and Melchizedek interacted significantly, giving ample opportunity to pass on antediluvian lore.

Of course, the Apostle Paul seems to imply that Melchizedek was not Shem but rather an early pre-incarnational Christophany of Jesus himself.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Why would our opinion of Pluto matter to people long ago?

Why would Pluto matter at all to people long ago? Nobody knew it definitely existed before 1930!

That's why it's ridiculous to retcon these silly stories using currently-known planets and concepts. Ancient people had no idea that Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, or the asteroids existed. They didn't understand what comets and meteors are.

How do I post pics? I'd really like to post the ones I linked in the OP and more.

Use an image-hosting site or attach them from your computer. Just don't hotlink anything that the original site doesn't allow, or you'll be stealing their bandwidth.

 

[Agent327]

When I looked at the time line the Bible offers, I did not realize that Noah lived to be 950 (300 years after the flood) and that he probably knew Abram who was only 57 when Noah died. that means that Noah probably told Abraham cool stories of life before the flood and the whole Tower of Babel event after the flood.

Seriously? First of all, the bible doesn't offer 'a timeline'; it offers genealogies. I doubt any Noah told any Abram of the tower of Babel (Babylon didn't have a tower). The Babylonian exile dates to the mid first millennium BC. No records or evidence of any massive flood in the entire millennium suggest even a hint of fact underlies all of this.

 

[Leoreth]

Why would our opinion of Pluto matter to people long ago?

Why would our opinion of Neptune or Uranus? You're being arbitrary and unscientific.

To everyone before the introduction of modern astronomy, the definition of "planet" was "something that looks like a star but does not have a fixed position relative to the sky". "Planet" literally means wanderer. Which means there clearly are only five planets.

Defining planet as any large object orbiting the sun already is "our opinion", which you admit yourself should not matter here. We just recently refined that definition again, big deal.

Are you saying that a bunch of ancient cultures correctly predicted that people considered there to be nine planets in the eighty years period from 1930 until recently?

Wow, much impress.

 

[Yeekim]

What exactly is the OP trying to argue?

 

[Leoreth]

The Ancients already knew everything, science and mythology is the same, yadda yadda.

 

[Ryika]

If people had not known that the earth was a sphere, why would they have invented the wheel to travel around it?

 

[Leoreth]

(Classical cultures actually knew the Earth was a sphere.)

 

[Ryika]

Come on, don't use logic to destroy my joke.

 

[Arakhor]

Dante's story was informed by the Roman Virgil who was in turn informed by Greek mythology. Democritus, the father of Greek astronomy, traveled to Egypt and Mesopotamia and upon his return told his fellow Greeks there are more worlds than the ones seen with the naked eye. Some planets were visible and some were not, the visible ones were especially significant because they served as signs, time keeping, etc. The unseen ones became the stuff of legend.

So legendary, in fact, that Dante does not bother to mention them in his magnum opus, despite listing the Sun, the Moon and the visible planets.

This was the setting before creation, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Tiamat, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune all awaiting the arrival of Marduk the creator. Thats 9...

Funnily enough, I could have sworn that you used to count Pluto as one of the nine, because that's what Sitchen and his acolytes did before 2005.

Besides which, if you're trying to connect the nine worlds of the Norse into this group, that's not going to work, as the Sun and the Moon were people, not places - Mani, the Moon-youth, and Sol, the Sun-maiden, who were both perpetually pursued by monstrous wolves.

 

[classical_hero]

You seem to have missed the somewhat obvious fact that without sun or Earth there would be no 'day' or 'night'. Creating 'light' (the stars, one presumes) does not create 'day'. For that, oddly, one needs a planet (say, Earth) from where to watch its star (in our case, the sun).

So the story teller wants us to believe God created all the stars except one, then waited 3 'days' before creating another star. And some planets.

Now, you can believe that - or you can believe what astrophysicists tell us from observation.

On day one light was created, not the light sources. We se on day four that is when the sun, moon and stars. But by using that logic you are presenting, then I shouldn't be able to see right now since I am no using the either of those three light sources for my current light.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

What exactly is the OP trying to argue?

The latest round of Chariots of the Gods/Velikovsky/Atlantis/Space-aliens-built-everything-because-humans-were-too-stupid-to-figure-out-basic-geometry kind of nonsense.

Dante's story was informed by the Roman Virgil who was in turn informed by Greek mythology. Democritus, the father of Greek astronomy, traveled to Egypt and Mesopotamia and upon his return told his fellow Greeks there are more worlds than the ones seen with the naked eye. Some planets were visible and some were not, the visible ones were especially significant because they served as signs, time keeping, etc. The unseen ones became the stuff of legend.

Explain how Democritus, or anyone else, could have known about unseen/invisible planets, given that the telescope wouldn't be invented for another ~2000 years.

The five planets known to the ancients are all in the ecliptic plane. They're visible in Greece, Mesopotamia, and even where I live. Mind you, while I've seen Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, I haven't seen Mercury - too much in the way of the horizon here.

This was the setting before creation, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Tiamat, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune all awaiting the arrival of Marduk the creator. Thats 9...

Please tell us you're not insisting that the ancients knew about the asteroid belt, Uranus, and Neptune. It takes a telescope to see those.

 

[Arakhor]

On day one light was created, not the light sources. We se on day four that is when the sun, moon and stars. But by using that logic you are presenting, then I shouldn't be able to see right now since I am no using the either of those three light sources for my current light.

Feel free to proclaim Fiat lux! every time you flip on a light switch if you like, or would that be too Catholic for you?