GR12 - AWM vs 30 civs, Pangea

it seems that the Dutch have some money again ($5k), so we could proceed to take them out :D

total count without Persia is now 484 cities, with a little faster and more aggresive settling, I am sure vmxa will hit the limit during his turns
 
I uploaded it and can pm to you if that works, I'll try now

edit: well pm won't do but I can downlaod it from here without problems
 
I would say two things. 1) muskets cannot be used to protect anything out in the open, not even workers, except as backup. I would go farther and suggest workers should not be in any position to be captured. In fact I said that a long time ago. We have a lot of rails to lay and should value our workers. 2) losing two armies on attacking is surely pushing it. A knight army that is yellow is just not much good on attack at this stage. Why risk it, unless someting was in danger.

I would also suggest that we not stop making cannons as they will be arties in a few turns. I am willing to stop, as long as we are willing to spend to upgrade the cannons. We can time the new build to not finish before we have RP.

I don't know how much we have for that with the infantry upgrades, so I suspect we will want to build arties from scratch for awhile.
 
ThERat said:
I uploaded it and can pm to you if that works, I'll try now

edit: well pm won't do but I can downlaod it from here without problems

I cannot even get to the upload12.


Edit2 Ok got it will start tomorrow.
 
Rat : of course I just disbanded cats we have built. I did not touch the slave artillery. It were just 4 or 5 anyhow.

vmxa : hm, I surely was in a bloodthirsty mood. My bad about the armies. Stupid mistake. At least I got 3 new ones last turn. One thing I forgot to mention. The main part of our settlers are in Baiersdorf. I do not remember whether I had activated one of them, so you would be able to see them.

And there were foreign troops dropped in the SW.

Please note that it is the beginning of the turn. I just moved one cav. I was too tired to continue.

Did I leave workers in the open ? I tried to let them rail safely.
 
Where cannons completed during my turns I ordered workers, so these could be changed back to cannons, but these were mainly in corrupt towns, so arties would take quite long to complete.
The rail network should be more or less complete, so we could begin railing our core now.
 
I have not loaded it up yet, got to go to the clubhouse and play pool, then dig in. Not to worry, losses will occur, I don't know any perfect players.
 
Here is a report for as far as I got today, so everyone know I did not fall asleep. Three turns in so far.

1782AD:
Sell Granary in Worker Pump. It goes form starving off a pop to a full basket. It only has 4 tiles and is size 4 making 7 food. Will get wokrers to chop the forest and mine and rail to get to 8 food. We are currently making cavs there and it will eventually be a place that may be a canidate to abandon.

Find a cav in Washington to finish off the AZ MDI that I redlined (1-0). Check the Advisor and we are at war with 23 civs, with only Persia not met. 6 dead civs America,Arabia,Germany,Japan, Russia and Spain.

We are making 1251 bpt, going to see if we can get 1343 to shave a turn off RP. If not then put about 30 beakerheads as taxmen to get the overrun down and redice the defict.

I see 12 settlers in hand, so I need to look at where they can go once I get the combat done.

Just for the record we are some 60 units below our support level, so no need to disband troops or bombardment units, unless it will finsih off a rush that is important. IOW we can probably spare a unit here or there, but you can certainly stand to have too many cats. When I say cats here I mean all types below arties, be they cats, trebs or cannons.

I am sure we will have a few opportunities to wish we had a few more to use somewhere along the way.

Dutch Cav (2-0).
Ok here is my take on new towns, shoot me if you see it otherwise. You have I don't know how many turns left, but certainly in 100 turns we won't need anything but a mop up some where.

So we can take new places and do one of 3 things:
1) what we have been doing, grow in 60 turns to size 6 and gain 2 special and 1 musket, while getting 0 gold and 1 beaker all the way.
2) same as 1, except no musket and gain 1 gpt.
3) immediately go to a specialist, no growth and no musket. You gain no MM of this place, 180 beakers in those 60 turns and 60 gold.

Now it is true we can eventually come around and irrigate those towns and grow them faster and get to size 6 and 3 specialist. Maybe a 4th if some food bonus is available. Not sure when we can get to that point and who wants to go around and find all these opportunities though.

So for now I go with #2 and a couple of #3, so if other feel otherwise, it will not make much difference in 5 turns. It is not like we will be getting all that many units from these place.

I see some worker task that need help. A lone native to build a road and it take 3 turns, so I would prefer to have 3 workers or its equivalence. Irrigation also short handed. Enough to do it in one turn, gets that tile online now, so in the end we are slightly better off. Some rail gangs are short with 5 worker turns, rather than 6 for a flat tile. Will try to get these sorted out, but it is not always so easy.

Kill redlined LB (3-0), man it has been 4 hours so far to get in 3 battles. So much housekeeping to get familiar with what is going on.

Iroq K down (4-0) not mentioning redline any longer.
Iroq pike (5-0). Iroq K (6-0). Kill dutch cav (7-0). Pike (8-0).
3 Ind Cav (11-0).
6 Greek K (17-0) 3 cavs make elite. India MDI (18-0). Az MDI(19-0).
India 3 WE (22-0). 2 LB (24-0). Sword (25-0). Fr Pike and settler (26-0)

Raze Tlacopan killing 2 hops and a LB (29-0). Sumerian Musket (30-0).
Found Ugarit 2. Kill spear (31-0). Iroq K (32-0).

Ok I am bit lazy so when I could not find enough to cut the time to 3 turns, I swapped as many as I could stand to do to taxmen and got from -132 to +7, but we still have a 4% overrun. Final count was more than 6 hrs almost all with non military stuff, except for moving cats.

Hum, I see I was less than fully awake on the log as I know there were more than 3 War Elephants, so I forgot to record all of them.

IBT:
Frigates bombard at Anderson, Yalbert, Cav-18. 17 more at next to Northern Star. No attacks anyway from the ground. Lots of moving toward and away fron the Eastern chokes, not sure if they were going to found some place or back to defend?

We create 5 cavs and 1 settler. China wants to talk, but I am busy.

1784AD:
Found Harran 2, Hattusha 2. This place got a taxman as it is tundra. I am planting down there to be sure that no landing can surprise us. We can abandon some later.
Found Tyrana 2. I am not putting temples in these places as CxxC should not need them.

Kill Dutch rifle (1-0).
Found Aleppo2 to cut off any neutral road use back to the tundra area and towns behind. Now they have to use 1 move per tile.
Found Ankuwa2.
Located all armies now:
Mace 1/3/5 (3)
Knight 2/4/6-16 (13)
Cav 17-34 (18)

Kill Iroq musket (2-0) Kill 3 India Cavs and 2 make leaders form 35th and create another army, but no units as of now. BTW I did fill the other army, which I do not know the name off. Leaders were back to back. We have 164 cities now, so we can have 41 armies.

Not sure how many shots it took, but I redlined all the Korean Frigates in range (10).

They have 9 more out of range. Send the frigates in North Star to sink 3 of them. I send out the caravel to see if I can entice the 9 to go for it and not bombard North Star.
Redline Port Galley (5-0). Kill Mayan MDI (6-0).

Found Kadesh 2 and did start a temple in case we want to fill out the borders in that area. If not switch it.
Found Adana 2. Ok Cav-35th is filled now. 36th started, needs 2 more.
Start pinging the 6 frigates off of the newly founded Aleppo2.
Musket (7-0). Iroq K (8-0). Carth K (9-0). Inca MDI (10-0) cav goes elite.
6th kills Iroq K and Dutch cav (12-0). 9th 2 Egypt K (14-0).
11th Iroq K (15-0).
Go ahead and flip another batch of beakerheads to gt to 1% over run +48gpt. 23 ships still in our waters, but many are redlined. [47-0]

IBT:
Wow first 8 Korean frigates hit and then last 2 miss. I wish I could do that well.
Greeks send more units to their nearby town or back home.
We build a worker, settler, musket, cannon and 4 cavs. I changed none of the builds for now.
Dutch send in a rifle and some cavs to our newly formed towns, but no attacks on the ground from any quarter. Haarlem had those frigates move in so I would like to take it down if I can get enough cav armies to it.

1786AD:
34th kills rifle in Haarlem flawlessly, 25th kills one with a bit more trouble. I see then next one is a draftee and down goes the city (size 11). We liberate 524 gold, but no workers. I figure they lost at least 6 and probably 8 or 9 ships. Yahoo. I see 6 more in three stacks that were coming in or just left.
(3-0)
17th France LB and pike (5-0). 36th filled now.
Found Alaca Huyuk2.

No frigates in range at North Star.
I stumble upon Uruk. It is not growing so I put the beakerhead to work. It also is getting a lib making 3 beakers? Is this just to get borders? If so is a temple cheaper for us and then sell it off? I leave that for the next player to ponder.
Cav kills LB make a leader, form cav-37. (6-0)
Ugarit chop forest and rail and mine the tile. Trying to get to a net 20 shields here as I have all the towns connected, except the newest on the front. Already got above 15spt so that alone saves one turn. 20 drops to 4 turns from 7. Going to work on a city or two each turn, if I can to max shields.

Kill 2 more Iroq K (8-0). Redline Dutch frigate. 37th filled.
Kill 4 Dutch cavs (12-0).
India cav (13-0). 2 Iroq K (15-0). Dutch rifle (16-0). 29th Egypt K (17-0).
Egypt K (18-0). 20th Egypt K (19-0). 33th kill Iroq K and LB (21-0).
All settlers are out, except one non native.

Edit forgot to total up [68-0]
 
So long as the core mines aren't railed, I agree on specialist from scratch in new towns, unless it has big food boni already in place (irrig cow or somesuch).
 
I think I actually made about half the new town option #1 and only the tundra a no growth. So not much effect and it will only be 2 turns or 3 till someone can change them.

I will evaluate at the end of the set, but I am wondering if we should go Ind before Med. It depends on where the AI is on it research, but if we do not get factories up soon, it will be hard to get value from them.

It will help a ton in getting enough cavs to fill armies. Anyway I will try to get a gauge on where they are.
 
Might be a noob's ignorance, but why medicine first anyways? Because AI's have it and it's cheaper?

At any rate we can pre-build factories in the towns that will take longer to build them, it should help alleviate the toll of going ind after med, if we do.
 
The reason is that it is required to get SciMeth and the ToE. We have to see if the AI has any chance to ace us out of it. I suspect not, will want to take the time to try to estimate what they have and where they are at the end of the session.

As to prebuild, I am not sure how many of those we can afford to have going. If we do not hit the city limit soon, we may have to squeeze out a settler in a few of the better cities. I have all settlers commited right now.

It may be that we can go that way, if we get a bunch of the best cities up to 20 or more net shields with rails.
 
What I am planning on doing is to see if any of the top cities belong to civs that already know Med. Then if they have Med and Ind and are in Communism or Facism we can expect they are on Elec or Sci.

We can see if they have Elec or not and if they met all of those things, we can't wait. If they have not completed a tech research in the last 10 turns, then we can verify the rate is too low to learn any prereq tech (Elec/Med) and then SciMeth before we can do Ind and SciMeth.

The value of the immediate factory is the long term gain, but also the improved ability to build the wonder, if we can get a factory up soon enough.

The AI may or may not be able to match us for shields with their best town, hard to say. If one of them has Shakes up and is now a Metro, they probably can with a factory as well. There is also the small chance for an MGL to rush the wonder. I see that we do not have SGL's enabled, so that is out.

I am sure everyone here knows the AI canuse MGL to rush a wonder, even thought it is not suppose to be able to do that.

I do not recall any pre for ToE so we will either have to start one soon or go from scratch. I would wait to see if we can risk going from scratch. That is my preference as I want to see if I can research some of the cheap stuff beofre it is done. If that looks shaky, then start the pre.
 
Remember that if a town has enough food for 3 specialists, then it can build an aquaduct in 14-15 turns.

Also I think you will gain more gold if you don't turn ppl to taxmen. The reason is that you are losing 1 every time you do this since scientists are 3 and taxmen are 2. Better is to reduce science when you are 2 turns away (and then you can hire taxmen if you want). In general you will hit very close to the right amount needed, but gain +1 for every turn you keep that scientist.

In other words run all scientists (until the last 2 turns) maximizes what you get from specialists. The overrun can be absorbed by lowering science.

Does that make sense?


The truly best you can do is run science at max until 1 turn before and then turn to as many taxmen as you can to get the tech in 1. You need enough scientists to do this adjusment though - two turns gives more flexibility, but can have more taxmen.
 
I think that you are not correct about the 3 specialist as a broad statement. Many places such as Bath can have 3 specialist, but will need 100 turns or some help to get up an aqua.

Those that are totally corrupt can only net 1 shield regardless off how many they can generate before corruption. Now if I can rush them with units or cash or a spare leader, then I do it.

This game of course has no spare leaders at this point, but normal games can. Now if they can build an aqua in 15 turns, that is the wy to go for sure.

I am not sure I follow the example on the sci Vs tax. In a town that is making 3 gold and 3 beakers net and you remove a pop from a tile that was netting either 0 gold or 0 beakers or 1 of each or any combination that is less than or not more than 2, you either break even or gain.

When I switch them, I only look at the net. If I move a pop and make a specialist and cannot end up with at least the same net, I won't do it. You can still be ok if it is even as you now may gain the content citizen and not have to deal with unhappiness at some point. A small point, but not invalid.

I would agree if it was a straight case of things like in the your last sentence. The thing is that if you are able to shave off a turn for the break through, I don't care if it cost me a little gold.

There will be no reducing the slider at the last two turns anyway as I am gauging the beakers near the correct count. So when you look at the 12th turn out of 14 turns, it is not carrying a large overrun. It is hopefully within 30 beakers out of 10,000.
 
IBT:
Wow this was the longest one so far, not really sure why, maybe the AI planeted some towns and or razed some. Lots of ships flitting around. The Korean frigates even improved upon the 8 for 10. They hit the first 9 shot and went 10 for 11 on North Star. Not to shabby 18/21 I would like to see that come down some.

My next target Eidenhoven had a bunch of ship steam into port, so that is nice. Mongols and Egypt want to talk, I don't think so.

We make 5 cav, 1 musket, 1 settler and a frigate? It is way on the otherside of the map and I prefer not to have more than a few ships on this map as those just get redlined in port or sunk at sea. We can withstand the bombardment as long as they do not hit tiles and we keep units in the town. Every now and then they screw up and we sink some.

So I switched Gold Shore to a settler. RP 1 turn.

1788AD:
Found Emar 2. Over run 3% at 38 beakers, too small to mess with.
Kill 3 rifles and a cav in Eivenhorn (size 11) and the Dutch decide to give us 702 gold to use at our pleasure. We get a cannon and 5 slaves. I am unsure of the number of ships, but it had to be at least 6. (4-0)

I had to swap tiles between Ugarit and Hattusha to get to 22 shields and a net of 20.
Start on Hunts season. Chop the forest as it was stuck at size 11. Rail and mine the tile and now it can grow to size 12. Growth is slow, but not going to add in a worker here.
Ok it is netting 20 shields now.
Karatepe gets to 10 net and +2F now. Kummanni get the same treatment.

Just noticed I did not mention founding of Alaloh2, hope I did not miss any others.
Kill 3 Indian cavs (7-0). 3 Egypt K (10-0). Sink Port galley and put pop back on the fish. (11-0) Used the eGalleon.
2 Inca K, first close call as elite cav redlines on a 1HP knight (13-0).
Egypt pike (14-0). Carth unit (15-0). 2 Inca LB and 2 spears (19-0).
2 Indian cavs (21-0). Redline 2 Carth caravel so they may be sunk on the way back with that newly build frigate at Golden Shore.
Use armies to kill Fr 5 MDI, 4 pikes and a LB (31-0) [99-0].

IBT:
Carth land a cav at Babylon and 2 units and a settler next to the site of the dutch town. Bad news for them is I already have a settler there, right next to them and it has 2 cav armies sitting on it. Looks like two slaves coming up.

Korean frigates go an amazing 12 for 12 on North Star, never seen that before for a running 30 out of 33. At least the 2 other firgates fail to hit the tiles at Settler Pump. Vikes as to talk, what do you think. Yeah that's right not right now.

1790AD:
Start research on Med for now, but that can be changed by the next player if we chosse to do it. It is 6 turns at 100%. Looks like we need to find about 20 scientist to cut it to 5 turns. I will leave that for the next player as we may change to Ind and the numbers will change. No need to go to the work, if that is not required or if a switch shows we cannot reduce it and want taxmen instead.

Eleven civs have Med and of those seven have Nat as well. None have Elec and we do not know if any have Ind as of now.

The Dutch still have over 6400g, but I am not sure how to figure out how many cities that may leave them. Since we got 702 last time, it has to be a small number.

Rome is crazy they have almost 24K.

India is in anarchy and Rome, Dutch, Korea are in Communism. So 100 cost techs SciMeth and Med are 7222 for this level and map. 140 (elec and RP) are 10,111 if I got this right. That suggest, but does not require that Rome is about 20 turns form getting SciMeth. That is if they go straight for it and do not go for RP. That adds at least 13 turns. They may also go for RP and then Ind, I do not know.

No one else has enough research capacity to do any better than Rome. We can research Med and Sci in 12 turns with no problem and probably can get down to 10. Ind is 8 or 9. So we are about a toss up to go Ind and still be able to switch to the ToE at the same time as Rome, if they go straight for it.

That is my best guess right now. Not factoring in any improvements for either of us in the mean time.

Found Ivriz 2.

We made 1 settler, 6 cavs.
Kill Carth Musket and K grab the settler. (2-0)
Found Kanesh 2. Switch New Yalburt to settler from a frigate. Dang a miss click and a cat ends up on a tile with no road near the front, will have to cover or leave exposed.
Kill WE (3-0). Carth cav (4-0).

Will try to leave the cannons unused so they can be upgrade to arties and put a crimp in those frigates. I did upgrade 10 of them already.
Galleon goes redline, but sinks redlined galley (5-0).
I am unsure about upgrading a musket to infantry and replacing the one on the coal. It surely will make it safer, but I am not sure if they are sending in units to get the town or the coal and I do not want to discourage them from coming one at a time.

I did not go around to switch builds to infantry or arties as I do not know if that is the way it should be done. At 90 turns for them, we may want to leave them for now. We may want to try to rush some of the builds when tanks are available.

We have a ton of rubber, but still only 1 coal. After we get some infantry in hand, it may be time to move on the coal past New Yalburt.
Iroq cav (6-0). Musket (7-0). Upgrading some muskets. So far 12 for 40 trying to ding a stack of rifles (12). Looks like the Dutch are injured as none arrive to do battle this round.

Harran up to net 20spt.
Lb (8-0). Kill 4 Dutch rifles at Armhem and liberate 804 gold and gain 4 slaves and a cannon (12-0).
3 Inca LB and 2 spears (17-0).
We have an Egypian settler in the east, but I have been unwilling to use it so far as we have Egyptian towns not far away. That and I was not really in a position to escort it before now or had no place to use it.

12 Otto rifles (29-0) [128-0]

This was the easiest set for combat as they do not attack, so you cannot lose units on the IBT and can send in enough cats to redline things.
 
Well done on the detailed MM of our core. :goodjob: That's what we need.

The link to the save doesn't seem to be working.
 
With engineer specialists, 3x6+1=7 spt, which brings an aqua down to 15 turns. That's how he does it. And once you're there, you're size 6 and can grow for more food surplus and more specialists per city. This does take a little while to start up because you need to get to size 6 with irrigated tiles, but it is very powerful. I estimate setting this up in a cow or wheat city could take around 40 turns from foundation to size 7+ research with 4+ scientists (no rails, ~25 to grow, 15 to aqua, maybe 5-10 more to grow beyond 7 or 8). At this rate, it beats the 1-scientist town within 55-60 turns. If we do it in the average Joe irrigated grass town without rails, however, it could take a full 100 turns to be worthwhile.

I'm not sure why we need coal so bad though, I hardly see anyone we could trade it with and our one source looks deep enough to me :hmm:
 
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