Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Right, I'm not up yet 
Good going, good thing the mongols are gone.
Good going, good thing the mongols are gone.
GR12 - AWM vs 30 civs, Pangea
- Thread starter Greebley
- Start date
I be interested in knowing how the Celts got so many cities and stayed behind in tech? That must have been some action packed AA for them.
I suspect they have a sizable island all to themselves. Didn't a civ like the Russians die early? Maybe the celts and Russians started on the same island and the Celts grabbed all the land of both.
We will see as soon as we get those world maps.
I agree with a previous comment that the celts are not likely on our continent.
We will see as soon as we get those world maps.
I agree with a previous comment that the celts are not likely on our continent.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
ThERat said:
Thanks. Sure, I'll be able to check in; it's just playing that won't be practical.
Greebley said:
Absolutely.
The timing sounds fine, and I definitely want to continue with Civ III SG play.
ThERat
Deity
IT ah, Hovd deposes us, but it could have been a worse city
4. 1818AD
take back Hovd, take Ta-Tu, Baruun-Urt
take Dalandzagdad from Chinese as a gate to the last Mongol towns
check out the area to carefully plan the final assault next turn
get another army
reduce science to 40%
realize that all the money has gone to Korea and Ottoman now
IT nationalism in, next espionage
some border expansions and they take time...
5. 1820AD
Ottoman have 10k, Rome has some money back as well
argh, lose another healthy army attacking a Mongol hill city with rifles
capture Chinan, Choyr, Atlay and Ulaamgon and the Mongols are destroyed
take Xinjian and Tientsin and stop for the night
start the next session by taking Shanghai, Canton, Beijing
China now has only 8 cities left
IT in the west there is a draught of units, not that we mind
Hunt season gets a factory and can produce 2 turn Cavs
Wonder city is at 42spt with a factory and starts army prebuild
6. 1822AD
capture Anyang, Tsingtao, Hangchow
spot a settler pair from China, thus try and settle a new spot and that works
capture Tatung and Nanking (China now down to 3 cities)
distances between cities now too far, thus turn to Maya, they have only pikes to defend
capture Kamin and Yaxilan
since Ottoman now have money, raze a city for 500gold
found a city to fill some gap
IT our border expansion programme is progressing well
7. 1824AD
capture Chengdu, Shantung and Uaxtun and China is destroyed
Mayans have 10 cities left, would be weird if I can't get that before the end of my turnset
capture Piedras Negras and get a MGL, use him for army or for IA, decide for the latter
continue with Lazapa, Calakmul, Bonampak. Largatero
(each city gives us 50 gold)
take Palenque and we get 88gold, Tikal for 93 gold, Qurigua for 68gold
Chichen Itza for 128gold and Copan for 200+ gold and Maya are gone
now we have the whole north for oursleves..time to rest all armies and start expanding west
sell a temple in Groningen since border expansions have been done there
4. 1818AD
take back Hovd, take Ta-Tu, Baruun-Urt
take Dalandzagdad from Chinese as a gate to the last Mongol towns
check out the area to carefully plan the final assault next turn
get another army
reduce science to 40%
realize that all the money has gone to Korea and Ottoman now
IT nationalism in, next espionage
some border expansions and they take time...
5. 1820AD
Ottoman have 10k, Rome has some money back as well
argh, lose another healthy army attacking a Mongol hill city with rifles
capture Chinan, Choyr, Atlay and Ulaamgon and the Mongols are destroyed
take Xinjian and Tientsin and stop for the night
start the next session by taking Shanghai, Canton, Beijing
China now has only 8 cities left
IT in the west there is a draught of units, not that we mind
Hunt season gets a factory and can produce 2 turn Cavs
Wonder city is at 42spt with a factory and starts army prebuild
6. 1822AD
capture Anyang, Tsingtao, Hangchow
spot a settler pair from China, thus try and settle a new spot and that works
capture Tatung and Nanking (China now down to 3 cities)
distances between cities now too far, thus turn to Maya, they have only pikes to defend
capture Kamin and Yaxilan
since Ottoman now have money, raze a city for 500gold
found a city to fill some gap
IT our border expansion programme is progressing well
7. 1824AD
capture Chengdu, Shantung and Uaxtun and China is destroyed
Mayans have 10 cities left, would be weird if I can't get that before the end of my turnset
capture Piedras Negras and get a MGL, use him for army or for IA, decide for the latter
continue with Lazapa, Calakmul, Bonampak. Largatero
(each city gives us 50 gold)
take Palenque and we get 88gold, Tikal for 93 gold, Qurigua for 68gold
Chichen Itza for 128gold and Copan for 200+ gold and Maya are gone
now we have the whole north for oursleves..time to rest all armies and start expanding west
sell a temple in Groningen since border expansions have been done there
Excellent progress.
I think we should head in the direction of Korea first. They are the biggest thorn in our side. If we can injure boats with our artillery we may be able to destroy them when they are in the city. I think this means heading North rather than toward Rome though the world map will tell us for sure.
I think we should head in the direction of Korea first. They are the biggest thorn in our side. If we can injure boats with our artillery we may be able to destroy them when they are in the city. I think this means heading North rather than toward Rome though the world map will tell us for sure.
They are dropping like flies. I know Korean ships are a pain, but don't forget that Ottoman and Rome are the leading researchers and the ones that could get RP the soonest.
We already know where Rome is located and they have what, 14 cities? Now that the ToE is up, the AI will probably not be in a rush to get that tech. Any that had not already started it, are likely to go elsewhere. IOW RP moves up in value to them now.
We already know where Rome is located and they have what, 14 cities? Now that the ToE is up, the AI will probably not be in a rush to get that tech. Any that had not already started it, are likely to go elsewhere. IOW RP moves up in value to them now.
=|VA|=Lawman
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2006
- Messages
- 24
Its a good read.
BTW the way I don't think it is possible for the Celts to be on an island, They have some 60 towns, that would have to be a huge island and not much room to have it.
If it was a player, then I could see them squeezing that many towns in an island. The AI could not restrain itself well enough. I mean they are going to use something other than real tight spacing.
I still do not understand why we have not seen any units from them though. Even on an island, I would have expected some ships. I guess they could have been sunk in wars.
I can't wait to see the next save and look at what is now known.
If it was a player, then I could see them squeezing that many towns in an island. The AI could not restrain itself well enough. I mean they are going to use something other than real tight spacing.
I still do not understand why we have not seen any units from them though. Even on an island, I would have expected some ships. I guess they could have been sunk in wars.
I can't wait to see the next save and look at what is now known.
Islands can be pretty large on these big maps - larger than a continent on a standard map for example. I could believe that 10-15% of the total world area is on one or more islands that the Celts own. I think their land area was in that range when I last looked. I am guessing this is the case.
As you say, we will see for sure.
PS - It occurs to me a strong reason for going for espionage has nothing to do with playing a better game - I have a curiosity to see what the world looks like. Without maps it would be possible to win the game without ever answering the Celt question. Since we are going to win the game, what does it matter if we delay tech slightly to see the world?
I DO think knowing the cities location is a definite advantage, but my reason for wanting to go for espionage so strongly has a lot to do with the above point.
As you say, we will see for sure.
PS - It occurs to me a strong reason for going for espionage has nothing to do with playing a better game - I have a curiosity to see what the world looks like. Without maps it would be possible to win the game without ever answering the Celt question. Since we are going to win the game, what does it matter if we delay tech slightly to see the world?
I DO think knowing the cities location is a definite advantage, but my reason for wanting to go for espionage so strongly has a lot to do with the above point.
Yeah, I was just trying to invision where such a large island could be. I remember one good sized island that has Byz and Zulu. I suppose the Celts could be there as well, but they are surely the ones that killed the Russians, so that would put at least 4 on that island and only one is gone.
I was actually surprised to see the AI kill off a civ so early at this level on a map this size. They seem to always get a peace deal and leave 1 or 2 towns.
We have a second average size island that was the Babs fall back and the island where evora sits. I suppose there could be a big chunk past Rome that has water, but it is hard to image that no contact was made as that would seem to be close enough to cross long ago.
Just speculating and that is probably going to be all wrong.
I was actually surprised to see the AI kill off a civ so early at this level on a map this size. They seem to always get a peace deal and leave 1 or 2 towns.
We have a second average size island that was the Babs fall back and the island where evora sits. I suppose there could be a big chunk past Rome that has water, but it is hard to image that no contact was made as that would seem to be close enough to cross long ago.
Just speculating and that is probably going to be all wrong.
Greebley said:
If that had been the proposition orignally, I would not have opposed it so strongly. The orignal concept was to steal techs (as I understood it) and that I was sure would not be very likely. The only way I felt they would have anything to steal was if we slowed down or got side tracked.
Actually the only two useful optional techs we would have to research to steal anything. You can't steal Nat or Espionage.
Now that we are not going for tanks ASAP, then I am with you lets get some info. Maps are not a real concern for me in terms of planning attacks. That is where the cities are located as I figure we are not going to go that far out of our way, even if we know the whole world. Not to mention we are not that far from being able to expose the mainland map.
What spies will do is let us see how many units and what type are in the cities. Then we do not send 4 armies to kill 6 rifles. We wait for a 5th or 6th army.
Yes you can take the place, but you may fail and lose armies. If you have 1 cav army for each rifle, it takes a real bad roll to not win.
As to Korea, it is unlikely that they will be close enough to make it the first target in the West. I guess it remains to be seen. To me the ships can do no real damage to us as long as they elect to bombard the town of North Star.
If they randomly hit tiles, then we have a bigger issue. It will be hard to cover random tiles with enough units to be sure to absorb all the damage.
I really thought the AI would be better at research. You were completely correct about them being so poor at it.
I still don't really understand why they hit the Industrial era and suddenly bomb on tech advancement. It is somewhat hard to judge because we speed up at the same time, but I think I have seen this problem in other games as well.
I would still be willing to steal Ironclads. I think Sanitation would only be useful if the game was going to last longer. Battlefield med would be useful in a longer game and science cities can really be great if they work all 20 squares, but that would take too long to set up to make it worthwhile and only really become profitable by the modern era.
One nice thing about Ironclads is that they upgrade to destroyers - not that I think it will matter in this game.
Edit: One reason I like in-game debates so much is that they really clarify my reasoning. For example I didn't use the "see the world" argument before because I didn't conciously realize that it was the driving force for wanting espionage until we discussed it. Debates make me clarify why I want something which can strengthen my opinion or change it. Otherwise it is all at an intuitive level.
I still don't really understand why they hit the Industrial era and suddenly bomb on tech advancement. It is somewhat hard to judge because we speed up at the same time, but I think I have seen this problem in other games as well.
I would still be willing to steal Ironclads. I think Sanitation would only be useful if the game was going to last longer. Battlefield med would be useful in a longer game and science cities can really be great if they work all 20 squares, but that would take too long to set up to make it worthwhile and only really become profitable by the modern era.
One nice thing about Ironclads is that they upgrade to destroyers - not that I think it will matter in this game.
Edit: One reason I like in-game debates so much is that they really clarify my reasoning. For example I didn't use the "see the world" argument before because I didn't conciously realize that it was the driving force for wanting espionage until we discussed it. Debates make me clarify why I want something which can strengthen my opinion or change it. Otherwise it is all at an intuitive level.
I am with you, I love to debate issues. Sometimes I am too dense to see the other perspective. Once in a while I can see the light and add something to my bag. Often it is not even a case of wrong or right, but rather preference.
I like to use Ironclads in my Sid games. I use to try to do the lone research bit, but the AI always came back at about 45 turns and got it. So I just steal it now and as you say upgrade some later.
In this game, I suspect we will not see anyone research Ironclads or at least not in time to be of interest.
I think two things happened that made it look like they were doing better than they were. One was we were darn busy in the middle ages, just holding serve and gaining some land. I know I had two sets where I was not sure all would be well.
Then when we came into the IA, they got the chance to get a free tech. I did not look to see how many civs were still around to do that. Then even without that they only have a few first tier techs and can trade and get discounts on research.
At about that time they got Nat, Fascism and Med they hit the wall. We hit our stride and were starting to really hurt them. The straw was that techs got so expensive and they had no way to increase their research in any significant way.
We were just the opposite. We were just getting more and more sites, more pop that could be spared to do specialist jobs with rails. We reached critical mass so that we had free units support. We started to get more luxs to free up the cost of happiness.
I was trying to track each civ as it shows up with a new tech to see what their pace was and a guess at the beaker rate. It was not great, but was a tip off.
I like to use Ironclads in my Sid games. I use to try to do the lone research bit, but the AI always came back at about 45 turns and got it. So I just steal it now and as you say upgrade some later.
In this game, I suspect we will not see anyone research Ironclads or at least not in time to be of interest.
I think two things happened that made it look like they were doing better than they were. One was we were darn busy in the middle ages, just holding serve and gaining some land. I know I had two sets where I was not sure all would be well.
Then when we came into the IA, they got the chance to get a free tech. I did not look to see how many civs were still around to do that. Then even without that they only have a few first tier techs and can trade and get discounts on research.
At about that time they got Nat, Fascism and Med they hit the wall. We hit our stride and were starting to really hurt them. The straw was that techs got so expensive and they had no way to increase their research in any significant way.
We were just the opposite. We were just getting more and more sites, more pop that could be spared to do specialist jobs with rails. We reached critical mass so that we had free units support. We started to get more luxs to free up the cost of happiness.
I was trying to track each civ as it shows up with a new tech to see what their pace was and a guess at the beaker rate. It was not great, but was a tip off.
On BattleField, it is not much use and I would not even build it in this game, if I could. The reason is that armies heal without it in enemy lands. We will not need to heal non army units in open land. Armies that are not up to attacking will probably be sent back to a barracks to heal. (We have a free rax in all towns)
We will have rails to most of our towns and I would not be shocked to see some of the AI lands in the west railed as well. So getting units in a town is a snap.
It would be a very useful wonder in the early game, when you do use a lot of individual units to attack and may leave them out to heal.
We will have rails to most of our towns and I would not be shocked to see some of the AI lands in the west railed as well. So getting units in a town is a snap.
It would be a very useful wonder in the early game, when you do use a lot of individual units to attack and may leave them out to heal.
ThERat
Deity
8.1826AD
expansion in the west
raze Aztec Xochi bla bla and found New Hope
autoraze French Tlateloco
attack Korean city and that seems to be the hornets nest, defeat 11 units inside that wanted to heal
get 81gold for the effort, found another city
raze Roman Tlaxcala but get only 93 gold for that
refound city and defeat a Korean MGL
we need to let armies heal for the next push...
cut off Korean horses
stop for the night, finish tomorrow
IT we get espionage
decide to go for corporation in 4 since the AI hasn't even indus yet
9. 1828AD
hurry IA in a city that can use the culture expansion
raze Calix, capture Korean Delphi for 78gold
raze Tzinzuntzen
capture Sparta from Greece, capture Knossos, Thessalonika and Athens from Korea
while fighting the many units get another army, promptly lose one healthy army against rifle
raze Suwon, this will hurt Korea, which is on top tech wise now (and has lot's of cities)
well, get another army, so that loss was ok
manage to capture Tula as well
10. 1830AD
Ottomans got industrialization now, they are the most advanced though they have so few cities
plant a spy in Rome and carefully steal the WM, ok so this is what we got
the Celts have more or less taken over Russia, Scandinavia and England, impressive
capture Malinalco and Aztecs are gone
raze Thermopylae, take Pharsalos and the Greek are gone as well
found a new city to close the gap in the west
now can check Antium before attacking, 6 defenders, we attack with 3 amries and raze the city for 200 gold
found new city and manage to raze Hispalis as well
raze Korean Argos, found new city
move a settler in the large unclaimed patch, we can foudn a city next turn
our pillager army almost completed the disconnection of the Korean capital
that will hurt their trades a lot, plant a spy with them and raze Haeju, take Rhodes
found New Adana to get closer to Korea, then proceed to raze Cheju
get another army via infantry attack, form army and get immediately another one
take Mycenea
situation:
there are 5 armies for the disposal of the next player, I left them unmoved so you have a better headstart
the progress looks very messy we face a huge frontline
I would keep on pressing Rome and Korea, then Ottoman
I did NOT MM the last turn as I was too exhausted. Please do not forget to rush some settlers. We do have
some near the capital
Roman frontline
Korean frontline
the WM
expansion in the west
raze Aztec Xochi bla bla and found New Hope
autoraze French Tlateloco
attack Korean city and that seems to be the hornets nest, defeat 11 units inside that wanted to heal
get 81gold for the effort, found another city
raze Roman Tlaxcala but get only 93 gold for that
refound city and defeat a Korean MGL
we need to let armies heal for the next push...
cut off Korean horses
stop for the night, finish tomorrow
IT we get espionage
decide to go for corporation in 4 since the AI hasn't even indus yet
9. 1828AD
hurry IA in a city that can use the culture expansion
raze Calix, capture Korean Delphi for 78gold
raze Tzinzuntzen
capture Sparta from Greece, capture Knossos, Thessalonika and Athens from Korea
while fighting the many units get another army, promptly lose one healthy army against rifle
raze Suwon, this will hurt Korea, which is on top tech wise now (and has lot's of cities)
well, get another army, so that loss was ok
manage to capture Tula as well
10. 1830AD
Ottomans got industrialization now, they are the most advanced though they have so few cities
plant a spy in Rome and carefully steal the WM, ok so this is what we got
the Celts have more or less taken over Russia, Scandinavia and England, impressive
capture Malinalco and Aztecs are gone
raze Thermopylae, take Pharsalos and the Greek are gone as well
found a new city to close the gap in the west
now can check Antium before attacking, 6 defenders, we attack with 3 amries and raze the city for 200 gold
found new city and manage to raze Hispalis as well
raze Korean Argos, found new city
move a settler in the large unclaimed patch, we can foudn a city next turn
our pillager army almost completed the disconnection of the Korean capital
that will hurt their trades a lot, plant a spy with them and raze Haeju, take Rhodes
found New Adana to get closer to Korea, then proceed to raze Cheju
get another army via infantry attack, form army and get immediately another one
take Mycenea
situation:
there are 5 armies for the disposal of the next player, I left them unmoved so you have a better headstart
the progress looks very messy we face a huge frontline
I would keep on pressing Rome and Korea, then Ottoman
I did NOT MM the last turn as I was too exhausted. Please do not forget to rush some settlers. We do have
some near the capital
Roman frontline
Korean frontline
the WM
ThERat
Deity
save
some statistics:
we have 36% land (but there is massive land to be gained by culture expansion and the temple projects are going well
we do have 59% pop and 327 cities.
The celts have 65 cities and I do NOT understand why they do not tech evenly. Rome/Ottoman are small but good at techs. Let's get rid of them.
One more time, corporation in 3, please MM and rush some settlers. We have massive cash (7900gold)
some statistics:
we have 36% land (but there is massive land to be gained by culture expansion and the temple projects are going well
we do have 59% pop and 327 cities.
The celts have 65 cities and I do NOT understand why they do not tech evenly. Rome/Ottoman are small but good at techs. Let's get rid of them.
One more time, corporation in 3, please MM and rush some settlers. We have massive cash (7900gold)
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
mhmmm messy no roads stuff in Korea. Got it, will try and push harder in the direction of the most gold. Planting cities looks like it could be tough on such a frontline, closing the Korean side would certainly be a big helper. With all that gold I'll certainly help myself to a few factories.
edit: opened the save and have answers now
OK, granted we need settlers, how should I MM? Temples in low growth/smal size, science in low growth/high size, settlers in high growth/low size ? And what about workers, did you have enough on the frontlines to spare many on irrigation tasks?
Addenda: right now the Turks have the most gold, followed by Korea; It would be a stretch to go for Turky right away so I'll stick to uniting the frontline and destroying Korea, from there we'll see how it goes.
edit: opened the save and have answers now
OK, granted we need settlers, how should I MM? Temples in low growth/smal size, science in low growth/high size, settlers in high growth/low size ? And what about workers, did you have enough on the frontlines to spare many on irrigation tasks?
Addenda: right now the Turks have the most gold, followed by Korea; It would be a stretch to go for Turky right away so I'll stick to uniting the frontline and destroying Korea, from there we'll see how it goes.
ThERat
Deity
some useful info
After we take out Rome, the Celts will be able to reach us. We may want to go for the Koreans first with their large number of cities. We can take out Rome ok, I think. Korea might be in the middle of researching RP for example. If Rome or Otto just got a tech then they are just starting to research and are less of a danger.
If tech takes a long time to research, then Korea may not be behind. They may be nearly done researching a more expensive tech that will then trade with putting them in the lead. Rome is ahead because it could buy all techs (not sure why they were saving cash though). Otto's must have gotten a tech first - they are scientific so would have gotten cash from when they became IA and may have have been in the right place at the right time - the first to get Nationalism perhaps. If they got gpt, then they could again get a tech faster than they would normally and so stay ahead - at least for now. I think they will start to lag.
On battlefield Medicine, it becomes more useful when there are infantry out there in Metropolises. Then it becomes better to take Artillery in to attack each city. I do agree though that even in that case it isn't a high priority. We can fight even that war with only armies and artillery. All it BFM helps with are infantry that are in enemy territory that are blocking access routes to us. If they get attacked then they can heal.
With no Metropolis and no RP yet, BFM is not useful. Agree on that.
If tech takes a long time to research, then Korea may not be behind. They may be nearly done researching a more expensive tech that will then trade with putting them in the lead. Rome is ahead because it could buy all techs (not sure why they were saving cash though). Otto's must have gotten a tech first - they are scientific so would have gotten cash from when they became IA and may have have been in the right place at the right time - the first to get Nationalism perhaps. If they got gpt, then they could again get a tech faster than they would normally and so stay ahead - at least for now. I think they will start to lag.
On battlefield Medicine, it becomes more useful when there are infantry out there in Metropolises. Then it becomes better to take Artillery in to attack each city. I do agree though that even in that case it isn't a high priority. We can fight even that war with only armies and artillery. All it BFM helps with are infantry that are in enemy territory that are blocking access routes to us. If they get attacked then they can heal.
With no Metropolis and no RP yet, BFM is not useful. Agree on that.
