Greebley said:
Why would we want to send troops over to finsih them off and then hold the island? They are fine where they are, they can't do any thing.
GR12 - AWM vs 30 civs, Pangea
- Thread starter Greebley
- Start date
Why would we want to send troops over to finsih them off and then hold the island? They are fine where they are, they can't do any thing.
ThERat
Deity
a few things to mention for NP before he plays.
The galleon was sunk by the AI navy that is abundant and annoying. In the north we get attacked by frigates and need some cannons to counter that. The AI loves these useless bombards.
I played around 8 hours marathon session, the IT aren't that long as long as unit animation is off. The AI doesn't really attack out towns as long as armies are inside. They try and go for the empty cities beyond their reach, good for us.
Now, there is 1 army filled with only 1 Cav in the new holdings. I got too many armies in the end and had no new Cavs to fill them. With the new 2 cities next turn, we can have yet another army. Unit support is just about there and with each new unit we get some additional cost, thus it is essential to found new cities.
The prebuild is 40 turns to go. We can get electricity in 12, medicine in probably 8 turns, I guess there might just be enough time for RP before sci methods. As we expand our economy should get fueled by more scientists. So, research times might go down.
There are now a total of 480 cities, so soon we will hit the limit as we keep on planting new cities. After that it would sense to take out Babs as nobody could refound cities.
By the way, some Civs have an insane amount of money, those are Ottomans, Romans and to a lesser extent Dutch. If we can raze Dutch cities, we might get handsome rewards to fuel our deficit research.
Oh, and the coal is as indiacted in the hills northeast. No ironworks for us
The galleon was sunk by the AI navy that is abundant and annoying. In the north we get attacked by frigates and need some cannons to counter that. The AI loves these useless bombards.
I played around 8 hours marathon session, the IT aren't that long as long as unit animation is off. The AI doesn't really attack out towns as long as armies are inside. They try and go for the empty cities beyond their reach, good for us.
Now, there is 1 army filled with only 1 Cav in the new holdings. I got too many armies in the end and had no new Cavs to fill them. With the new 2 cities next turn, we can have yet another army. Unit support is just about there and with each new unit we get some additional cost, thus it is essential to found new cities.
The prebuild is 40 turns to go. We can get electricity in 12, medicine in probably 8 turns, I guess there might just be enough time for RP before sci methods. As we expand our economy should get fueled by more scientists. So, research times might go down.
There are now a total of 480 cities, so soon we will hit the limit as we keep on planting new cities. After that it would sense to take out Babs as nobody could refound cities.
By the way, some Civs have an insane amount of money, those are Ottomans, Romans and to a lesser extent Dutch. If we can raze Dutch cities, we might get handsome rewards to fuel our deficit research.
Oh, and the coal is as indiacted in the hills northeast. No ironworks for us
vmxa said:
If we don't keep troops in all the Babylon cities we may get a flip. I would like to remove that threat. I am guessing we don't have enough units in them to get the chance to zero. Be a shame to suddenly lose Sun Tzu for example.
Greebley said:
It has been a lot of turns and I would wonder if there are any Babs in that town, but we could retake it if it did. I see ThERat mentioned getting the island, becasue of the count limit.
He also acknowledge we are not able to fill our armies at all times, so sending a few ship loads over there right now does not seem like a good deal.
We would have to leave defenders or the land could get taken by someone else. Right now it is safely in the Babs hands. The count is not a concern to us as we will raze and replace as we go.
I would not even worry about army count as we have many that we could scrap if we got leaders and not enough towns. Those old mace and knights could go.
I also am not sure why we are so concerned about the ToE. It really does not do anything great for us in this circumstances, does it? Normally you take AT and Elec, but those are of no real value now.
Do we have any factories, no, fast workers is so much more useful right now and we will ge the ToE without even a prebuild at this level. A 10 turn pre is plenty at Monarch. I would expect we will have SicMeth before anyone else, even with a run to RP first. Even if we go Ind after that, we are probably fine.
To be sure, it probably makes little differece which route is chosen, but I do think Inf and fast workers will make the game easier for us. We can get those arties and rail the coast so they can ping some of those frigates.
We can send as many as we need to where they are most useful. I just think it is so much stronger. Ok, I tossed in my 2 cents.
ThERat
Deity
I pretty much agree on the value of RP, we are currently heading straigth for it. Infantry, artillery and double speed workers are immense.
I just think the ToE would be nice after that since we get free Electonics with Hoover. Remember we are on a pangaea, this means a free plant for every single city.
Of course, after that we would head for factories, we can skip the nationalism tech for quite a while. probably until we got tanks and planes.
I am not even sure that I would take AT/Elec if I did make the ToE in this game. We need 3 more techs to have factories and then say 10 turns to make one. That is a long time to finally use those hydros.
I would hope the game is well on its way by then. Anyway taking two of the three techs that lead to Flight is better imo. AT/Elec lead to nothing but the next age.
I would skip Nat period, not going for Espionage are we? Don't need rifles, even if we can't make infantry and I am sure we can as we have large amount of land.
I would hope the game is well on its way by then. Anyway taking two of the three techs that lead to Flight is better imo. AT/Elec lead to nothing but the next age.
I would skip Nat period, not going for Espionage are we? Don't need rifles, even if we can't make infantry and I am sure we can as we have large amount of land.
Hoover is always worth it IMO. The techs we get are also very expensive. If we want to go for hoover at all we should get Ato and Ele. The other techs are all fairly cheap comparitively. It will take a while to build Hoover anyway, so not having factories right away doesn't seem an issue. We just don't need a prebuild for Hoover.
I don't see any other tech that we could take that would be better.
I don't see any other tech that we could take that would be better.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
It does mean a setback for a while, but I'm also all in for the Dam. I guess we just have to get techs in an order safe enough to get ToE while not neglecting RP or factories. One thing that will work for us is rails, and by work I mean work, so we're probably good to go without tanks or infantry for a while just because of the movements and improved shields. So I'd go ToE-RP-Hoover-Factories.
Ok my last 02 on it. Why would I care how much a tech costs that I do not intend to research? I would not research AT and of course that means no Elec either.
I know it is not common to ignore the Dam, we do not need to spend time research the techs or building the Dam. Coal Plants will already be up in places that get factories and we should be closing the door on th game before Hoovers does anything for us.
I would not be making more than a half dozen factories, 10 tops, so why worry about a hydro? I did not figure the cost for our map, but for huge it is 6222 Vs 8000. Getting Steel and Refining will put us 1 tech from either Flight or Tanks. That is much better than eventually getting a free hydro in a few places. If you do not build a factory the hydro does nothing, as I am sure you all know.
You are of course free to go any way you please, but I am still waiting to be convinced it makes sense to sweat AT/Elec.
I know it is not common to ignore the Dam, we do not need to spend time research the techs or building the Dam. Coal Plants will already be up in places that get factories and we should be closing the door on th game before Hoovers does anything for us.
I would not be making more than a half dozen factories, 10 tops, so why worry about a hydro? I did not figure the cost for our map, but for huge it is 6222 Vs 8000. Getting Steel and Refining will put us 1 tech from either Flight or Tanks. That is much better than eventually getting a free hydro in a few places. If you do not build a factory the hydro does nothing, as I am sure you all know.
You are of course free to go any way you please, but I am still waiting to be convinced it makes sense to sweat AT/Elec.
Thats the difference then. I was thinking around 30 or more factories. It is an initial cost that slows developement for a bit, but afterward you have doubled the production of the top 30 towns.
We can also assign engineers to get more shields for the factory building to speed it up - they are immune to corruption. I usually maximize production to speed the factories.
It doesn't take long to earn back the shields spent on those factories. This I feel is why most people go for Hoover.
We can also assign engineers to get more shields for the factory building to speed it up - they are immune to corruption. I usually maximize production to speed the factories.
It doesn't take long to earn back the shields spent on those factories. This I feel is why most people go for Hoover.
Normally one would not have 30 places to make a factory. We have something like 18 cities making 10 or more shields right now. Many of those have 5 corrupt shields. None making more than 19 shields. Only 5 cities make as many 14 shields. Three of those have 4 corrupt shields.
If we take 30 places out of production for something like 24 turns, I do not see how we make it back. We are talking about starting a number of turns from now, so it will be maybe 60 turns from now till production is in hand.
We won't need increased production in all those place 60 turns from now will we? If you use the top 30 places you will be down to places that will need at least 15 turns to make a cav, so we will really be hard pressed to fill any new armies. Let alone replacements.
Using engineers means giving up something, gold or beakers and maybe even shields. I agree that they earn their keep, in productive places. Not in places that need 24 or more turns to get them up.
If we take 30 places out of production for something like 24 turns, I do not see how we make it back. We are talking about starting a number of turns from now, so it will be maybe 60 turns from now till production is in hand.
We won't need increased production in all those place 60 turns from now will we? If you use the top 30 places you will be down to places that will need at least 15 turns to make a cav, so we will really be hard pressed to fill any new armies. Let alone replacements.
Using engineers means giving up something, gold or beakers and maybe even shields. I agree that they earn their keep, in productive places. Not in places that need 24 or more turns to get them up.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
We can buy and alternate builds, so as to never have more than 2 or 3 cities out of war production at any one time. Buying these isn't cheap but then if it means 20 uncorrupt shields on final tally, I'll sign the order anytime. This and the fact we'll have rails up on all those mines, this will quite nearly double the core production, and the number of towns able to spit out at least 20.
vmxa said:
Beorn if you do 2 or 3 at a time you will never get 30 done in time to use them all.
I know I was not acknowledging the boost from rails, because I have no idea when or if those cities will ever get rails all the way around. That would not be a priority for me. Getting al towns connected would be first and then the top couple of cities and finally if I had time the rest.
I guess what I am saying is that is a lot of work for not all that much, when you factor in the need for Hoovers to make it worth it. In the end we gain a bit, but had to monitor a lot of cities all the way, then deal with polluted tiles.
The difference to me is you want to get them smashede quickly and I want to make it easy on myself. I just squeeze them like a Boa and if it require 10 extra turns, but everyone of them is safe and easy, that is for me.
36 turns do not start for quite awhile and in the end we get how many turns out of them? I do agree that I would go for industry first if I was going to make a lot of factories, the longer it take the less they are worth.
I know I was not acknowledging the boost from rails, because I have no idea when or if those cities will ever get rails all the way around. That would not be a priority for me. Getting al towns connected would be first and then the top couple of cities and finally if I had time the rest.
I guess what I am saying is that is a lot of work for not all that much, when you factor in the need for Hoovers to make it worth it. In the end we gain a bit, but had to monitor a lot of cities all the way, then deal with polluted tiles.
The difference to me is you want to get them smashede quickly and I want to make it easy on myself. I just squeeze them like a Boa and if it require 10 extra turns, but everyone of them is safe and easy, that is for me.
36 turns do not start for quite awhile and in the end we get how many turns out of them? I do agree that I would go for industry first if I was going to make a lot of factories, the longer it take the less they are worth.
Ya, the fact that factories are worth more early is probably the most important point. Lets go for Ind after RP to get them. I guess the other point is there is no other tech I want to get more than Ele. Once we have RP and Ele, there is no really important tech until flight and tanks - and if we play long enough to get there then hoover will be worthwhile.
ThERat
Deity
ok, now it all depends how long this game will last. do we need to go for mech inf and the ulimate killer MA?
there is a wonder that would give us border expansions for free research institutes.
in the last game we had to go all the way there and I do see us even further behind.
I would go for electricity, RP, medicine (should be pretty cheap by then), sci methods and grab ToE
If we do not do that, we might lose the ToE. Maybe we are lucky, it all depends.
there is a wonder that would give us border expansions for free research institutes.
in the last game we had to go all the way there and I do see us even further behind.
I would go for electricity, RP, medicine (should be pretty cheap by then), sci methods and grab ToE
If we do not do that, we might lose the ToE. Maybe we are lucky, it all depends.
I would make a large bet that is not an issue. We know 5 civs are in the IA as of the last save. One does not have steam, iirc, one does not have Nat. So you can be sure that they are working on those as they have Med.
The rest are gong to be researching Commie or Facism as sure as can be, they can't help themselves. By my tracking of their tech breakthoughts, I guess that Rome is making some 500 or so bpt and Otto is maybe 300.
It is hard to be more than a gross number as we do not know if they got any techs in trades or what discounts for being other than first. So tops is about 600 bpt. I have not looked at the save in some time, but I think we were making more than anyone else. We have pre builds if we want them, so all we have to fear is a leader rush, even if they beat us to SciMeth.
I doubt that they will as they rarely do the techs in a beeline or even a meandering to the ToE.
I cannot believe we will get to the modern age as this is a pangea, not a contients game. We will not have to deal with landing a massive army and hence no need to fool with shipping in any numbers.
We can always use some armies to cut off any oil and kill their production of tanks/bombers. We could take 10-15 armies and go razing all the best cities, if need be as by then we have infantry and rails will give us protection on demand.
If we continue to swing in an easterly direction and then north on the east side, we will soon cut the front to a one side war. Now that the mountains are bridged we can make some headway.
Of course extrapolating onto this massive map, is dicey, but I feel comfortable with those projections.
The rest are gong to be researching Commie or Facism as sure as can be, they can't help themselves. By my tracking of their tech breakthoughts, I guess that Rome is making some 500 or so bpt and Otto is maybe 300.
It is hard to be more than a gross number as we do not know if they got any techs in trades or what discounts for being other than first. So tops is about 600 bpt. I have not looked at the save in some time, but I think we were making more than anyone else. We have pre builds if we want them, so all we have to fear is a leader rush, even if they beat us to SciMeth.
I doubt that they will as they rarely do the techs in a beeline or even a meandering to the ToE.
I cannot believe we will get to the modern age as this is a pangea, not a contients game. We will not have to deal with landing a massive army and hence no need to fool with shipping in any numbers.
We can always use some armies to cut off any oil and kill their production of tanks/bombers. We could take 10-15 armies and go razing all the best cities, if need be as by then we have infantry and rails will give us protection on demand.
If we continue to swing in an easterly direction and then north on the east side, we will soon cut the front to a one side war. Now that the mountains are bridged we can make some headway.
Of course extrapolating onto this massive map, is dicey, but I feel comfortable with those projections.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
1750 (0): We use uncommitted armies to dispose of eight Roman units in the west, and four assorted enemies in the east (12-0).
The Koreans bombard Northern Star a good deal, sinking some third party's frigate as part of the operation.
1752 (1): We wipe out the 27-unit Roman SoD, losing a cav attacking a redlined pikeman (39-1).
We account for three other Roman units (42-1).
In the hills we smite a Chinese stack of eight (50-1).
We found Pontefract and Dover Beach (claiming spices) in the east.
We defeat two musketmen in Sumerian Stuttgart, but the town is still garrisoned (52-1).
We raze Incan Atico, held by a spearman, and smash a nearby Incan spearman as well (one slave; 54-1).
We raze Sumerian Munich, held by three musketmen (five slaves; 57-1).
We slay 27 other units in the east (84-1).
One of our caravels repels the attack of a Mayan galley (85-1).
1754 (2): We take Brandenburg, held by a pikeman, and when a moment later we crush a German settler/pikeman pair we eliminate the "Glorious Germans" (87-1).
We raze Sumerian Stuttgart, held by a musketman and a pikeman (four slaves; 89-1).
We slay two musketmen in Sumerian Bonn (91-1). Didn't these people found any cities of their own?
Elsewhere in the east we deal with twelve units and capture three settlers (103-1).
In the west we dispose of twenty-five units, all Roman or Indian (128-1).
In the hills we ride down six units, losing a cav (134-2).
We see the Sumerians and the Mongols fighting in the former German lands.
1756 (3): We found Trullion, Marune, and Wyst to consolidate our gains in the east, and Maske to fill in a gap.
We raze Sumerian Bonn, now held by one musketman (135-2). We gain seven slaves (razing plus captures) and a treb.
We raze Sumerian Hannover, held by two musketmen after some softening up by the Mongols (five slaves; 137-2). The way is open now to the Dutch and their mountain of gold.
Elsewhere in the east we overrun sixteen units, a settler, and two workers (153-2).
In the hills (where our coal source is) we defeat nine units (162-2). There are medium-sized enemy stacks everywhere in this theatre, and we don't have enough attacks per turn. I'll move another army in by rail.
Things have calmed down in the west, but we extirpate sixteen units (178-2).
1758 (4): We found Aloysius, Durdane, and Moudervelt as we push forward in the east.
In the west we grind up 21 units, as the big Indian stacks arrive (209-2). We gain a GL and so our 31st army.
In the hills we obliterate fifteen units (224-2).
We drive our rail line through the mountains to the eastern front.
In the east we liquidate twelve units and close in on the Dutch (236-2).
A Chinese frigate sinks one of our exploring caravels (236-3). ____, there goes the 100-1 ratio.
1760 (5): We found Thaery in the east, claiming gems.
We raze Dutch Holwerd, held by three riflemen and a cav, and capture a cannon (five slaves; 240-3). We gain 801 gold and boost the research rate to 100%.
We found Dar Sai, Methel, Alphanor, and New Wexford, aggressively settling towards the Dutch.
We raze Dutch Delft, held by three riflemen, and capture two cannon (five slaves; 243-3). I get a reminder that attacking riflemen in size-twelve cities is no joke, when one of our cav armies redlines and retreats. We steal Vermeers worth 814 gold.
In the hills we expunge twelve units (255-3).
In the west we trample 22 foes (277-3).
We found Krokinole next to the ruins of Delft.
The pickings have gotten slim in the east, but we shatter nine units (286-3).
Thirty-nine elite victories this turn produced one Great Leader.
The Koreans bombard Northern Star a good deal, sinking some third party's frigate as part of the operation.
1752 (1): We wipe out the 27-unit Roman SoD, losing a cav attacking a redlined pikeman (39-1).
We account for three other Roman units (42-1).
In the hills we smite a Chinese stack of eight (50-1).
We found Pontefract and Dover Beach (claiming spices) in the east.
We defeat two musketmen in Sumerian Stuttgart, but the town is still garrisoned (52-1).
We raze Incan Atico, held by a spearman, and smash a nearby Incan spearman as well (one slave; 54-1).
We raze Sumerian Munich, held by three musketmen (five slaves; 57-1).
We slay 27 other units in the east (84-1).
One of our caravels repels the attack of a Mayan galley (85-1).
1754 (2): We take Brandenburg, held by a pikeman, and when a moment later we crush a German settler/pikeman pair we eliminate the "Glorious Germans" (87-1).
We raze Sumerian Stuttgart, held by a musketman and a pikeman (four slaves; 89-1).
We slay two musketmen in Sumerian Bonn (91-1). Didn't these people found any cities of their own?
Elsewhere in the east we deal with twelve units and capture three settlers (103-1).
In the west we dispose of twenty-five units, all Roman or Indian (128-1).
In the hills we ride down six units, losing a cav (134-2).
We see the Sumerians and the Mongols fighting in the former German lands.
1756 (3): We found Trullion, Marune, and Wyst to consolidate our gains in the east, and Maske to fill in a gap.
We raze Sumerian Bonn, now held by one musketman (135-2). We gain seven slaves (razing plus captures) and a treb.
We raze Sumerian Hannover, held by two musketmen after some softening up by the Mongols (five slaves; 137-2). The way is open now to the Dutch and their mountain of gold.
Elsewhere in the east we overrun sixteen units, a settler, and two workers (153-2).
In the hills (where our coal source is) we defeat nine units (162-2). There are medium-sized enemy stacks everywhere in this theatre, and we don't have enough attacks per turn. I'll move another army in by rail.
Things have calmed down in the west, but we extirpate sixteen units (178-2).
1758 (4): We found Aloysius, Durdane, and Moudervelt as we push forward in the east.
In the west we grind up 21 units, as the big Indian stacks arrive (209-2). We gain a GL and so our 31st army.
In the hills we obliterate fifteen units (224-2).
We drive our rail line through the mountains to the eastern front.
In the east we liquidate twelve units and close in on the Dutch (236-2).
A Chinese frigate sinks one of our exploring caravels (236-3). ____, there goes the 100-1 ratio.
1760 (5): We found Thaery in the east, claiming gems.
We raze Dutch Holwerd, held by three riflemen and a cav, and capture a cannon (five slaves; 240-3). We gain 801 gold and boost the research rate to 100%.
We found Dar Sai, Methel, Alphanor, and New Wexford, aggressively settling towards the Dutch.
We raze Dutch Delft, held by three riflemen, and capture two cannon (five slaves; 243-3). I get a reminder that attacking riflemen in size-twelve cities is no joke, when one of our cav armies redlines and retreats. We steal Vermeers worth 814 gold.
In the hills we expunge twelve units (255-3).
In the west we trample 22 foes (277-3).
We found Krokinole next to the ruins of Delft.
The pickings have gotten slim in the east, but we shatter nine units (286-3).
Thirty-nine elite victories this turn produced one Great Leader.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
We're slaughtering everything that comes our way in the west and the hills, and expanding freely in the east. Our only problems in the east are that we have to hold a lot of towns with armies--infantry will be very welcome--and that only our cav armies can safely be used against riflemen in big cities.
It'll be some time before we get every city hooked up to the railroad, but we already have a good basic net which lets us move units quickly between the three active theatres and our core.
It's hard to tell, but our spearheads in the east may be in a belt of four Dutch cities--two of them now razed--not contiguous with the Dutch core. Judging by the movements of their ships, though, the Dutch heartland is probably in that direction (to the southeast).
We have three frigates ready to prey on the Korean frigates bombarding Northern Star, but unfortunately the Koreans are in a pattern at the moment that doesn't leave their ships adjacent to the town, so we can't redline them with bombardment units. When the opportunity arises, we can move bombardment units to NS by rail to do the job.
A large Dutch fleet containing galleons has been moving along our southern coast for several turns. Since they've ignored many other opportunites to land, I assume they're determined to disembark next to Babylon like all the other AI civs. So leaving Babylon open is really helping us, and we should be sure to continue doing it.
A Mayan stack of at least twenty units changed direction just before reaching our position in the hills, so it may cross the mountains and emerge on the flank of our eastern position in a few turns.
It would be a good idea to pillage the Sumerian mountain road NE of Thaery when we have the opportunity.
It's rather startling that we haven't yet doubled the Celts in either land or population. Their initial rush should be spectacular, when it arrives.
I've left various units active just to call them to the next player's attention.
It'll be some time before we get every city hooked up to the railroad, but we already have a good basic net which lets us move units quickly between the three active theatres and our core.
It's hard to tell, but our spearheads in the east may be in a belt of four Dutch cities--two of them now razed--not contiguous with the Dutch core. Judging by the movements of their ships, though, the Dutch heartland is probably in that direction (to the southeast).
We have three frigates ready to prey on the Korean frigates bombarding Northern Star, but unfortunately the Koreans are in a pattern at the moment that doesn't leave their ships adjacent to the town, so we can't redline them with bombardment units. When the opportunity arises, we can move bombardment units to NS by rail to do the job.
A large Dutch fleet containing galleons has been moving along our southern coast for several turns. Since they've ignored many other opportunites to land, I assume they're determined to disembark next to Babylon like all the other AI civs. So leaving Babylon open is really helping us, and we should be sure to continue doing it.
A Mayan stack of at least twenty units changed direction just before reaching our position in the hills, so it may cross the mountains and emerge on the flank of our eastern position in a few turns.
It would be a good idea to pillage the Sumerian mountain road NE of Thaery when we have the opportunity.
It's rather startling that we haven't yet doubled the Celts in either land or population. Their initial rush should be spectacular, when it arrives.
I've left various units active just to call them to the next player's attention.
