GR28 - AWM vs 30 civs, Pangea

I think sending out armies vs the AI is fairly essential even when the attacks seem tough. If there is a chance we can survive, then send 1 or 2 out even if it means defense is harder. When we get to 5 we should at least 2 on offense. Otherwise you stagnate and the AI get stronger faster than you do.
 
350 (1): Our MM is basically good, but I switch a few citizens around so that we're working fewer unimproved tiles.

We put a fourth swordsman into the Second Sword Army, after which it slays a Sumerian swordsman and an Enk (2-0).

The Fourth Sword Army accounts for a Dutch swordsman (3-0).

We pop-rush Pooh Bear's walls as intended by Daeron.

The position of Banana Bob's Chutney on the wrong side of a river makes the tactics difficult there, although I know it seemed like a behind-the-lines location when the town was founded.

A Celtic horseman redlines and retreats at Erdenet.


360 (2): The Second Sword Army disposes of two more Sumerian swordsmen and ends up in Ellipi to heal (5-0).

Around Ellipi we flatten another four Sumerian units, gaining a GL and so our fourth army (9-0).

We get a fourth unit into the Fourth Sword Army.

We bullyrag two Dutch swordmen after they unwisely infiltrate onto clear terrain (11-0).

A forest chop near Choybalsan doesn't reveal BG.

We get the Fifth Sword Army filled up with four swordsmen.

We capture a Zulu scout--a rare occurrence this far into the war.

A Sumerian swordsman falls attacking Nineveh, and a Celtic horseman expires at Erdenet (13-0).


370 (3): The Zulus are suddenly more active. Pooh Bear isn't in danger but it's going to be tricky to get its road built.

We unhorse a Celtic horseman at Erdenet and gain a GL for our fifth army (14-0).

We trip up one Zulu horseman next to Tie-Dye Frenzy, and redline/retreat another (15-0).

We smite another Sumerian swordsman on the Ellipi front (16-0).

The Celts (nineteen cities) and the Babylonians (two cities) offer peace.


380 (4): The Zulus are really coming on now--twelve units visible between Pooh Bear and Tie-Dye Frenzy.

We put a fourth unit into the Third Sword Army.

We hack down two Sumerian swordsmen around Ellipi (18-0).

We shatter four Dutch units, three swordsmen and a warrior, after they cross the river near Mandalgovi (22-0).

We expunge four Zulu units around TDF, but lose an archer attacking a horseman (26-1).

I pop-rush a settler in Babylon so that we'll already have the town's replacement, in effect, if we have to abandon it.

We lose a spearman to the attack of a Dutch swordsman at Mongo Like Candy, where we waited much too long to get walls up (26-2). In a position such as this, all our towns are front-line towns.

The GLib brings us Currency, Republic, and Monarchy, so we enter the MA. Our revolting to monarchy isn't an immediate prospect, to put it mildly.

Dalandzadgad uses its accumulated shields for a courthouse.


390 (5): We pick off a Celtic spearman outside Choybalsan (27-2).

We harrow two Sumerian swordsmen on the Ellipi front (29-2).

We trample four Zulu units around TDF and Hovd (33-2).

We smite two Dutch swordsmen on the southern front (35-2).

Around Almarikh we flay a Zulu horseman and an Enk (37-2).

We fill up the Sixth Sword Army, so we're at our maximum, for now, of five four-unit armies.

We cut down a Persian archer around Nineveh (38-2).


400 (6): We overrun an Imp and an Enk outside Almarikh (40-2).

We hew two Sumerian swordsmen in twain outside Ellipi (42-2).

Disease hits Tabriz, just a little bit before we would have completed a settler there to end the problem of working jungles. :mad:


410 (7): We carve up a Dutch swordsman outside Mongo Like Candy (43-2).

On the Ellipi front we strike down three Sumerian units, but seven new ones arrive (46-2).

We abuse a Zulu horseman outside Hovd (47-2).

We rout a Dutch stack of four outside BBC and gain our third Leader of the round, who heads off to rush the FP in Almarikh (51-2).

Two Celtic horsemen redline and retreat at Erdenet.

The Persians are bypassing Babylon and Nineveh and sending large stacks right at Ellipi. That's going to be a new problem.


420 (8): A forest chop finally reveals BG, next to Kazan.

For the first time this round, we're in position to try to found a free city--and we get one, Atlay, founded in the gap between Almarikh and Dal.

On the Ellipi-Nineveh front we carve up a Persian horseman and a Sumerian swordsman (53-2).

Outside Mongo Like Candy we disembowel a Dutch swordsman (54-2).

We fillet two Dutch swordsmen on the BBC-Mandalgovi front (56-2).

At newly founded Atlay we extirpate two Persian horsemen and an Imp (59-2).

Two Celtic units perish attacking Erdenet, and a Persian horseman comes to ruin outside Atlay (62-2).

We build the FP in Almarikh.


430 (9): We spit a Celtic horseman at Erdenet (63-2).

We get started on a Sumerian stack of nine approaching Ellipi, striking down two swordsmen and an Enk (66-2).

We deal with another Dutch swordsman in the south (67-2).

We spear a Persian horseman outside Candygram For Mongo (68-2).

Celtic horsemen make their usual bad attacks at Erdenet, but have some luck this time, and we lose a spearman while felling two attackers (70-3).


440 (10): A Celtic stack anchored by three spearmen has appeared. That may give us more trouble than the mindless attacks at Erdenet.

We shatter three Dutch units around Mandalgovi (73-3).

We eviscerate two more Celtic horsemen at Erdenet (75-3).

We expunge two Persian horsemen and a Persian archer between Ellipi and CFM (78-3).

We dash out the brains of a Persian spearman and an Enk around Atlay (80-3).

We hammer an Enk near Ellipi (81-3).


450 (11): One Sumerian stack of six moves just where we want it, but a new stack of six appears.

We swat a Dutch warrior next to MLC (82-3).

We grind down the stack of six Sumerian units on the iron hill next to Ellipi (88-3).

We liquidate two Persian units in the Ellipi-CFM sector (90-3).

Beyond Atlay we cleave a Zulu archer and a Persian horseman (92-3).

We club two Dutch swordsmen adjacent to Mandalgovi (94-3).

Twenty-four elite victories this round, two of them defensive, generated three Great Leaders.
 
Presumably we want to send armies out against the Persians, since we know where their cities are and we have a road most of the way there, although we'd rather hurt the Sumerians. We're under enough pressure that the timing isn't ideal, but it isn't going to get any better. We can probably send two armies out razing and hold our positions for the moment, though on the Ellipi front we'll become more dependent on our enemies' making bad attacks.

I've left the Third Sword Army near Nineveh with its movement, so that you can decide whether to send it west immediately or wait for its partner to heal.

We have a settler SE of Mongo Like Candy with which we can make the free-city check every turn, and three other settlers near spots where we might be able to fit in towns when we're permitted. Karakorum should continue to build settlers when it hits size six (or seven if we Leader-rush an aqueduct there).

The garrison we have in BBC seems to be sufficient to make the Dutch ignore the town, so I wouldn't reduce it, since the city is hard to reinforce.

The Dutch are now advancing more towards Mandalgovi than BBC, but they aren't giving us too much trouble.

For the moment, we're containing the Celts in the NE without using any armies. If they infiltrate with the stack of six slow units they've got coming, we may be pressed harder, so I've been keeping some extra units in that area.

For fully efficient MM we have to swap three-food tiles between Karakorum and Choybalsan frequently. Karakorum should have three, three, and four surplus food over any stretch of three turns.

We can start using Leaders for aqueducts, if we don't seem close to twenty-four cities.

We have two horsemen ATM. Five swordsmen are due to complete in the next two interturns, so you can switch and have more horsemen quickly if that's what you prefer.

I haven't worker-rushed Atlay's walls (so to speak) because the town hasn't been subject to attack. For the next few turns we should keep a worker within one move of the town so we can do it if necessary.

Ulaan's food shortage is intentional; just keep an eye on it.

We didn't acquire any new enemies this round.
 
The crunch:

GR28-450ADi.jpg


GR28-450ADii.jpg
 
Nice kill ratio! :goodjob:

Got to love those Celtic horsemen moving one tile at a time towards the meatgrinder. :lol: Just hope the big stack of spearmen currently covering their troops is just a phase they're going through.

Going for the Persians is probably a good idea. The sooner we eliminate them, or put them down to one or two cities, the sooner we can do something about those Sumerians.
 
Preturn: I started the Swordman west and killed a Sword.

IBT: 4-5 Celtic units attack Erdenet. We suffer no losses.

460 AD: Kill and Retreat two Celtic Horse. Attack some Celtic Archers and nearly lose an Elite Sword. Gain a leader from a Horseman. Send it toward the Capitol

IBT: Hold off 3 Horse in Pooh Bear, 2 Celtic Horse, and a Babylon Bowman.

470 AD: Kill a Zulu Impi, and Archer, but lose Sword vs final Archer. Need some Catapults near Pooh Bear, so I switch over some nearby towns. Bombard Persians, and kill a Spear.
Use leader to rush an Aquaduct. Sending Army toward Eulabar.

IBT: The Archer that we lost the Sword to, attacks and kills another Sword. The square is then Pillaged.

480 AD: Attack Eulabar. Zulu around Pooh Bear are annoying. We can't make any decent attacks. We do get our first Catapult though which bombards a Endiku that is also in the area.

IBT: Lose a Spear to a Zulu Horse. Several attacks on Erdenet are held off without loss.

490 AD: We auto-destroy Eulabar and build a new town to the south (NP's 'test town').
Lose another Sword attacking a Horseman. Finally fight a Sumerian stack that have been taking their own sweet time going anywhere.

IBT: Odd attacks by Impi's on Pooh Bear. Some attacks by Babylon.

500 AD: Raze a Persian town (Selucia I think it was) and build a town on the Spice. I think we have enough units that we won't get attacked.

IBT: Lose a Spear in Pooh Bear. Celts no longer going for Erdenet it seems.

510 AD: Mostly Healing. Kill some more Sumerians and a Zulu Horse.
Sent Army toward Celt area as that has been quite busy.

IBT: Celts are definitely going around now. Spot a Pink Warrior up north. We also get Monotheism and Engineering.

520 AD: Pink is Arabia, which is another larger than average civ with 20+ cities (16-17 is average). They very likely gave us the last two tech as we are even with them in tech (so they have both). We declare war.

IBT: We see a light blue unit. Just as things seem under control we get more enemies.

530 AD: Light blue is Spain. They have 15 cities. We declare war.
Armies are healed and moving on next Persian town.

540 AD: Attack Sidon. Kill more Sumerians. Celts are now around Choybalsan and we kill two horse.

IBT: Netherlands become more active again. Zulu start heading East.

550 AD: Capture Sidon. I was going to originally raze but hit the wrong button. I decide to keep it because next turn the Army can move off the city square. Get a Leader and build our 6th Army.
Kill some of the Dutch, but there are a lot.

Notes:
With our 6th army we are again at maximum. We have 25 towns total.

There are two civs that can settle, and one settler moving westward. I left them active. Given that we have only seen one civ from the west, I think settling westward is more likely to lead to a shorter front line.

More workers might not be a bad idea as we have lots of Jungle still.

I didn't build infrastructure other than the rushed aquaduct in our capitol.. I think the next player probably could start something however.

The Zulu are heading East:
GR28_AD550_Zulu.jpg



The West:
GR28_AD550_West.jpg
 
Note that both two new contacts were to the North, and we will likely see troops from that direction. The initial rush is always hardest, so be prepared.

With the workers still active the next player could choose to abandon Sidon this turn.

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
Commando Bob - Up
ThERat - On Deck
Daeron
Northern Pike
 
wow, tough times, but at least we start to expand again and the west looks indeed most promising.

great turns, NP and Greebley :goodjob:
 
Good work getting us going against the Persians. :thumbsup:

We can hope that on a map this size, our two new enemies will be a long way away. Perhaps by the time their units show up in force we'll have a few more armies.
 
Despotism
100% Tax
000% Science
000% Luxury

1300 gold, +15 gpt

Feudalism in -- turns.

City Builds
  1. Karakorum (5) settler in 3, grows in 3.
  2. Babylon (1) trebuchet in 25 grows in 3.
  3. Nineveh (4) vSpear in 3, zero growth.
  4. Ta-Tu (4) vSword in 1, grows in 11.
  5. Pooh Bear (2) vSpear in 5, grows in 8.
  6. Kazan (5) vSword in 2, grows in 3.
  7. Baruun-Urt (1) walls in 5, grows in 5.
  8. Almarikh (5) vSword in 1, grows in 6.
  9. Ellipi (3) vSword in 7, zero growth.
  10. Tabriz (4) vSword in 6, grows in 5.
  11. Ulaan (6) trebuchet in 2, zero growth.
  12. Choybalsan (4) vSword in 5, zero growth.
  13. Hovd (6) trebuchet in 4, grows in 12.
  14. Sidon (2) rSpear in 20, grows in 10.
  15. Tie-Dye Frenzy (6) vSpear in 3, grows in 4.
  16. Atlay (1) barracks in 1, grows in 2.
  17. Dalandzadgad (6) trebuchet in 2, grows in 9.
  18. Mandalgovi (4) vSword in 1, grows in 2.
  19. Erdenet (3) trebuchet in 8, grows in 5.
  20. Ulaanbaatar (1) walls in 4, grows in 4.
  21. Jungley Swamps (2) trebuchet in 4, grows in 3.
  22. Banana Bob's Chutney (3) trebuchet in 3, grows in 20.
  23. Candygram for Mongo! (4) vSpear in 3, grows in 7.
  24. Naw, Mongo Straight (3) vHorse in 1, zero growth.
  25. Mongo Like Candy (4) trebuchet in 6, grows in 4.
We have 25 cities and can support 6.25 Armies; we have 6 Armies.

Production Recap:
Settler [1] (Karakorum)
Trebuchet [8] (Babylon, Ulaan, Hovd, Dalandzadgad, Erdenet, Jungley Swamps, Banana Bob's Chutney and Mongo Like Candy).
vSpear [4] (Nineveh, Pooh Bear, Tie-Dye Frenzy and Candygram for Mongo)
vSword [7] (Ta-Tu, Kazan, Almarikh, Ellipi, Tabriz, Choybalsan and Mandalgovi)
Walls [2] (Baruun-Urt and Ulaanbaatar)
rSpear [1] (Sidon)
Barracks [1] (Atlay)
vHorse [1] (Naw, Mongo Straight)

Military
03 Settlers
16 Workers
10 Slaves
00 Scout
01 Scout (Zulu)
09 Archer
46 Spear
44 Swords
02 Horse
30 Catapult
06 Army
04 Trebuchet

Current Units: 160
Allowed Units: 100
Support Costs: 060 gpt

Compared to Persia (Monarchy) we are Strong.
Compared to Babylon (Despotism)we are Strong.
Compared to Spain (Monarchy) we are Strong.
Compared to Celts (Republic) we are Strong.
Compared to Arabia (Republic) we are Strong.
Compared to Sumeria (Despotism) we are Strong.
Compared to Zulu (Despotism) we are Strong.
Compared to Dutch (Republic) we are Strong.

Luxuries
01 Ivory connected.
03 Dyes connected.
03 Spices connected.

Strategic Resources
01 Iron connected.
01 Horse connected.

No wonders being built at the present time, as far as we know.

City Count
25: Mongols
22: Netherlands
21: Sumeria
19: Celts
17: Sumeria
13: Persia
12: Zulu
01: Babylon
??: Arabia, Spain

Settlers/Cities
We have three active settlers this turn. One is 2NE of Atlay, with 2 vSpears. Another is 1SE of Dalandzadgad, unescorted. And the third is 2S of Ellipi, just across the river.

Of the three, the one 2NE of Atlay is the most important, since it will close a gap in our northern line. I would like to move it 1NW or 1N, just to push our borders out a bit. It will still be within walking distance of Atlay and Almarikh and maybe Pooh Bear.

I would iike to plant a town 2N of Dalandzadgad, not just for the 3BGs, but to draw off the Sumerian Swords from attacking Ellipi. If we can get them off of the hills, we can build a hill town between Ellipi and Nineveh and ping them as they go by. Mainly, we get the Swords onto flat lands where we can kill them easier.

The settler group 2S of Ellipi (settler, eHorse* and 2 vSpears) would be better 1W of where they stand. Building there, the eliminate a jungle tile and have a grassland 1E and 1W of the city. This city would begin a short cut to Persia, bypassing the route of Ellipi, Nineveh and Babylon and the need to dodge Sumerian Swords.

If we keep Sidon, this will give us 28 cities, or one more Army.

I think we need a city furher north than Ta-Tu. This area has been quiet, except for the Zulus, who come down the west side of the mountains.

Armies
Looks like we have two for Persia, two to stop the Sumerian Swords, one to stifle the Dutch and one that will dance between the Zulu and Celts. Only one Army, 1N of Dalandzadgad, is still a three unit Army.

Leonardo's Workshop
We may need this wonder, since it appears e we are in the middle of the landmass. It looks like we will be on the defensive from the north for a while, so upgrading catapults to trebuchets might need to be considered.

Infrastructure
We have no, zero, nada in Libraries. Same with Markets, too. If we did revolt to Monarchy we have 1300 gold we could spend to buy some of these things.

However, we need all the units we can get. I think that we can only afford to build one library and one market at a time.

Monarchy
When do we want to revolt? Now? After we build some markets?

Arabia and Spain
Not a good time for two more enemies. Hopefully they have other wars to keep themselves busy.

Terraforming
We need to gather our slaves together and start clearing our interior jungles. One stack of six slaves could clear and road a jungle tile in 9 turns. However, of our ten slaves, only four are anywhere near our core.

Plans
Slowly start on infrastructure; aqueducts, libraries and markets.
Exapnd westward.
Slaves start on swamp duty in the core.
Pick off Persian cities.
Hunker down and deal death to invaders.

I might be able to start on Tuesday night, so plenty of time for feedback.
 
good questions raised...

Leo? I don't know whether we can bag this wonder. Usually we tend to build the TGL and after that no wonder until ToE and Hoover. That has been the pattern but I don't mind deviating from that at all.
However, upgrading of units is tricky as this effectively takes away money for deficit research.

Monarchy:
We have to check unit support and it does not look too good. I think we might want to revolt sooner rather than later though as we need to get our infra growing etc. markets certainly will help and with 3 luxes (and later more) happiness will benefit from this too.

I think we should try and expand westwards and use this as a rather safe base as we seem to be located rather centrally.
 
I don't have time to respond to all of that :D, but a few points:

The problem with plans to draw the Sumerians away from Ellipi is that we want them to attack Ellipi--it's a walled hill town where we should slaughter them. I'd just station an army on the hill W of Dal, ideally with a road built beneath it if you can arrange that, so that the Sumerians will be forced either to target Ellipi or to approach Dal over open ground.

The standard answer about Leonardo is that upgrading is not a big part of these games, except for knight --> cav which is cheap anyway, so sinking shields into that Wonder at what's typically the decisive point in the game isn't justifiable. Here there's the nuance that our knight equivalent only costs sixty shields, so the upgrade to cav will cost twice as much, but I still don't think we can afford a drive to Leonardo in this situation.

With not a single city at size seven, and the vast majority needing aqueducts, we're a long way from being able to revolt to monarchy.

Again for reasons of city size, marketplaces can't help us much at this point. Whatever infra builds we can fit in should be aqueducts and libraries.

I see you've noticed the three-unit army, and yes, it should receive its fourth unit at once.

No cat --> treb upgrades, please--as extensively discussed last game ;), they boil down to buying one extra hit per turn for 300 gold.

Unless the Persian threat to Baruun-Urt disappears over the interturn, we should merge the adjacent native worker into the town so that we can pop-rush walls there. We can't allow the Persians five turns of nearly even attacks on our units in the city while the walls complete naturally.

As you suggest, we just don't have enough workers for labour-intensive jungle burns. If we're going to clear anything, it should be roadless forest around Jungly Swamps, Kazan, and Ulaan.

Yes, it would be good if Arabia and Spain had other wars on their hands, but we decided not to set AI aggression at maximum because it would make the game too easy. :rotfl:

Edit: We don't have to abandon Sidon immediately, but our armies must not just hang around defending it. The armies should pillage the road tiles W-W-N and N-N-W of Sidon on their way west, which will make it impossible for an enemy horseman to appear out of the fog and take the city without warning. Then we can hold the city, though it'll be empty, until we can see that it's about to be captured, by which time you should have a settler for the replacement town positioned where you want.
 
I doubt we have any chance at Leo's even if we wanted to. The Statue of Zeus was build before we even researched literature. With all the war now, we probably slowed the techpace of our neighbours down by a lot compared to other civs that we haven't met yet. Wouldn't be surprised if it's already being build somewhere.

I agree that Ellipi is a good place to fight the Sumerians as it is. I´m still surprised they haven´t shown much interest in Nineveh, which has really helped us. That area around Nineveh, Dalandzadgad and Ellipi is really going to help us in the later stages if it´s fully developed. Also, I don´t know exactly how the AI prioritizes targets, but I doubt it´d give up the path along the hills, even if we settle 2N of Dalandzadgad. If we settle it 1 tile to the west, or 3 NW of Dalandzadgad on the hills, it can potentially do 25 spt later on, before waste of course.

3 NW of Dalandzadgad would probably be the best spot, 3 tiles away from Nineveh, Ellipi, Atlay and Dalandzadgad and we get the defensive bonus from the hills. It will help us with stopping the Sumerian flow along the hills and it will be productive later on.

That spot and a location NE of Atlay should be sufficient to close the north from the Sumerians and the Zulu. From there I think we should only settle to the west, fill up the area up to the spices and keep our back to the coast. Settling opportunities are rare now and if we settle, it´s important that the town can grow to size 7 without much problems. Because we have a lot of towns that won't be able to for a while, because of the jungle.
 
The 3 unit army is the one I built on the final turn. I did move a vSword towards it so it could be added. It makes us short on swords in that area. You may want another town or two on swords - Ulan is a good choice as it can build swords in 3. Its on trebs because we weren't able to bombard units far enough down.

Note with the extra Luxury, size 6 towns only need 1 defender instead of 2. This may free up some units for the front lines.

I would also upgrade a few Spear to Pike in key locations when we get Feudalism. Do it in towns being actively attacked (some kill the units before they attack so the defenders don't get used).
 
Leonardo's Workshop
Believe it or not, I wasn't committed to building this thing. What I saw was a) central location on the map, b) a circular front, c) two more civs that have found us, d) not much room to expand due to marshes, jungles and mountains which leads to e) a greater need for defensive units than normal. With a perceived premium on catapults and trebs, and knowing that cats to trebs is a bad exchange at normal rates, I wondered if building Leonardo's Workshop would make the cat -> treb upgrade path a good idea.

It looks like I didn't explain my thought process too well. :crazyeye:

Cities
Three NW of Dalandzadgad is a good city site, but it might be a bit early for it. My concern for building around Dalandzadgad was to get the Sumerians off the hills when they attacked Dalandzadgad / Ellipi. Northern Pike's suggestion of getting an army onto the hill 1W of Dalandzadgad forces the Sumerians onto flat land, where they can be killed easier. That way we don't build an exposed city in the area that we have to garrisson and hope that it gets attacked. It is a much better idea than mine.

The settler that is near Dalandzadgad is now going to settle towards Sidon, exact location unknown, but somewhere around where Eulbar was. That will give us two new cities to the west, in an area that looks relatively peaceful. The slaves around Barrun-Urt are (mentally) allocated to the task of making roads to connect those cities with the rest of the empire, and then to start chopping and draining other terrain.

Infrastructure/Government
Aqueducts and libraries, with markets later once the city gets bigger (size 7 or more). Aqueducts first, libraries second, but only one of each at a time.

Monarchy isn't an option until we have several cities larger than size 7.

Workers
I think we need some stratgic roads on the hills/mountains around Ulaan and towards the NE. With more Zulu heading in we don't want our units stuck on those places when they need to be moving in to attack. Most of our workers are in this area, so we should be able to get three, maybe four tiles of good defensive terrain roaded in this set of turns.
 
Thanks for connecting the dots regarding your ideas for Leonardo and trebs. I like the logic better now, but still doubt that we can spare the shields. ;)

Strategic roading is an excellent idea.
 
actually I think we should build markets before libraries. simple reason is that we do not have any research going for now since we invest everything into cash. market's make far more sense this way.
 
A reasonable point. I just feel that if we don't already have some libraries built when Education knocks out the GLib, it'll be too late. So I'd rather have libraries than the minor benefit from marketplaces (gold) when the major benefit (happiness) is unimportant.
 
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