Handling illegal immigration

The amount of wishful thinking and selective blindness in this thread is staggering.

In the end though, I think the real question is more : do you think nation-states are legitimate entities or not ?
 
There's a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the subject, as the OP correctly stated. The vast majority of the population in any country does not want mass immigration. Be this country Switzerland or Bhutan or South Africa. As long as we are somewhat democratic, we have to respect this clear will of the majority. Their will is to restrict immigration not because they are meanies and racists and such, but because mass immigration does undeniably have large effects over society, it changes society, and most people don't like those changes. It also usually places an unequal burden on the rich and the poor: while the rich get cheap maids and cooks and construction workers, the poor get competition and a downward pressure on their salaries and social benefits. Those hundreds of thousands of people that Italy rescued from the sea in the last years alone are not "Mohamed the brain surgeon". They are "Mohamed the waiter from Algiers" or "Mamadou from Mali who can't read". Italy has double digits unemployment and does not need, want or would benefit from them.

People are dying to cross the sea to get to Europe because they know they have a very high chance of staying. Europe does not deport anyone (unlike the US). The vast majority of those who take a dangerous raft in Libya are not only rescued but eventually allowed to stay forever in Europe. So they will keep coming. To change this, you need to change the incentives. Deport quickly everyone who does not have a valid asylum claim (so something like 95% of migrants). They are rational people, if 95% are being sent back they will stop risking their lives, because it would be for nothing.

As for human rights: being able to emigrate is a human right, being able to immigrate to your country of choice isn't. No society is forced to take on you.

Another factor that certainly plays a role are the social security networks in place. Europe - though not all of it - has quite the elaborate system to keep people afloat. Adding plenty of migrants into that system isn't doing much good, because most of them aren't getting into work soon, which means that not only do they not bring anything into that system, they also start as an additional burden on it. So not only do you have people who fear that migrants come to take their job or their chance at a job away (which is mostly overblown), but you also have people who now have to carry an increased burden to finance people they don't see any benefit in. People might be okay with some level of help for refugees, but when you get tons of people from places that aren't really dangerous, with people moving mostly for the economic benefit, and quite a few of those people not only not sharing the common believes of the local society but being quite a problem in their behaviour, you are bound to run into trouble. The local population isn't all that fond of people who shouldn't be there being there, with the government not being able to send them away even though their requests to stay have already been denied. It's not surprising that there are plenty of people who don't like it when the system gets played, and all the methods that exist to deal with the situation don't really work at all.

Much of this doesn't really extent to the USA, because it doesn't have anywhere near the same social security system. People who come into the country actually have to see how they finance their lives, they can't count on the state to do it for them. Of course you have people who are actively searching for jobs in both places, after all, many people don't want to be a burden on society or just need to do something to feel right. But that doesn't change the different impact on the various social systems that exist. The immigrants arriving in the US are more a felt threat to people (the worries about the job listed above, and them mostly being spanish speaking people from a different cultural background) not so much a burden on the system or the people. Unless you count the costs for incarcerating a ton of them for no good reason whatsoever, but that also applies to other parts of society (needless to say, the whole system is nuts, and the idea of private prisons as absurd as it gets).

I don't think there is all that much hypocrisy surrounding the issue, as there are quite a few important differences. Not only those mentioned above, but also the treatment in general. Those people in Europe unhappy with the migrant-wave over the last few years are mostly concerned with having control over the own borders and deciding who comes in and who gets to stay. They aren't interested in having fences or walls everywhere, nor do they think that treating people like garbage is a way to solve the situation, though a few people might think differently. That's more like the general concept that already was supposed to be in place in the US as well. Trump's government, on the other hand, isn't really doing that at all. It is going out of its way to act as a bully towards everyone, regardless of the situation. It's the difference between wanting control but keeping things humane, and wanting control in complete disregard to the people it affects. Hence it being possible for someone to be in favour of controlling immigration while being very much against the treatment shown by the current US-government.
 
Another factor that certainly plays a role are the social security networks in place. Europe - though not all of it - has quite the elaborate system to keep people afloat. Adding plenty of migrants into that system isn't doing much good, because most of them aren't getting into work soon, which means that not only do they not bring anything into that system, they also start as an additional burden on it. So not only do you have people who fear that migrants come to take their job or their chance at a job away (which is mostly overblown), but you also have people who now have to carry an increased burden to finance people they don't see any benefit in. People might be okay with some level of help for refugees, but when you get tons of people from places that aren't really dangerous, with people moving mostly for the economic benefit, and quite a few of those people not only not sharing the common believes of the local society but being quite a problem in their behaviour, you are bound to run into trouble. The local population isn't all that fond of people who shouldn't be there being there, with the government not being able to send them away even though their requests to stay have already been denied. It's not surprising that there are plenty of people who don't like it when the system gets played, and all the methods that exist to deal with the situation don't really work at all.

Much of this doesn't really extent to the USA, because it doesn't have anywhere near the same social security system. People who come into the country actually have to see how they finance their lives, they can't count on the state to do it for them. Of course you have people who are actively searching for jobs in both places, after all, many people don't want to be a burden on society or just need to do something to feel right. But that doesn't change the different impact on the various social systems that exist. The immigrants arriving in the US are more a felt threat to people (the worries about the job listed above, and them mostly being spanish speaking people from a different cultural background) not so much a burden on the system or the people. Unless you count the costs for incarcerating a ton of them for no good reason whatsoever, but that also applies to other parts of society (needless to say, the whole system is nuts, and the idea of private prisons as absurd as it gets).

I don't think there is all that much hypocrisy surrounding the issue, as there are quite a few important differences. Not only those mentioned above, but also the treatment in general. Those people in Europe unhappy with the migrant-wave over the last few years are mostly concerned with having control over the own borders and deciding who comes in and who gets to stay. They aren't interested in having fences or walls everywhere, nor do they think that treating people like garbage is a way to solve the situation, though a few people might think differently. That's more like the general concept that already was supposed to be in place in the US as well. Trump's government, on the other hand, isn't really doing that at all. It is going out of its way to act as a bully towards everyone, regardless of the situation. It's the difference between wanting control but keeping things humane, and wanting control in complete disregard to the people it affects. Hence it being possible for someone to be in favour of controlling immigration while being very much against the treatment shown by the current US-government.
Yeah. It's not very PC to say so but not all immigrants are equal. Indeed receiving "Mohamed the brain surgeon" or "Mohamed the engineer" into your country poses much less of challenge than receiving "Mohamed the unemployed youth from Casablanca" or "Mamadou the polygamous Malian". And the people on those rafts on the Mediterranean are not exactly brain surgeons or engineers. Neither were the millions of "Syrians" that flocked into Europe through Greece, as the Germans learned the hard way. And while receiving highly qualified immigrants is a net benefit to society, receiving dirt poor immigrants with no qualifications is not, especially if as you say the country has a generous welfare system.

Which is why, to get back to the highly un-PC point that not all immigrats are equal, any honest analysis will show that Sub-Saharan immigration to France has been a huge net burden to the country, with a majority of immigrants and their descendants depending on large social spending to make ends meet, very high unemployment and posing a huge strain to social housing (which is always and everywhere strained). Other immigrant waves were net positive, because the immigrants had skills that matched demand and largely financed themselves.

Any honest discussion must recognize these inequalities.
 
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What's the upside to letting in 3rd world immigrants? They're either low income or living on unemployment benefits, which makes them a net drain. In addition to that, you get all the crime, terrorism and the downward pressure on wages. All this for what, just so that we can pursue an multicultural utopia which has already failed even on its own terms? I guess you could argue that not letting them in is cruel, because then they'd have to live with their own kind, in their own countries that are... what's the word Trump used? But if they don't want to live with their own kind, why would I want to live with them? There's no upside, mass immigration is a failed project, and it's about time we acknowledge this fact.
 
Them sending remittances generally just takes money out of the USA.

The idea that remittances sent by Latin@ immigrants to their home countries significantly affects the US economy is basically a lunatic racist conspiracy theory, worthy of Donald Trump.
 
Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.

It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.

Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.


Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
 
Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.

It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.

Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.


Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
Well in Europe immigrants commit crimes at rates many times that of natives. It's not unusual for countries here where ~15% of the population is foreign born to have its prisons filled by 50% or more foreigners.

Goes to show that not all immigrants are equal. The issues the US faces with Latin American, Indian and East Asian immigrants are not at all the same as those Europe faces with African and Arab immigrants.
 
Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
Then it's about irreconciliable differences with people who do see them as legitimate and desirable, and this is the fundamental opposition from which pro or anti immigration is just a consequence.

(though it's quite an internal contradictory with the loud defense of "cultural identities", but whatever)

As for the consequence of immigration on safety, maybe just think on the fact that said migrants have to cross the two biggest oceans on the world to reach the US, it might be a hint.
 
Immigrants from 3rd world countries commit crimes at lower rates than do natural born citizens of the USA. They use social services at a lower rate too, as do their children. The grand children of immigrants use such services at about the same rate as everyone else.

It is a demonstrable fact that poor neighborhoods become safer, not more dangerous, when more immigrants and refugees move in.

Immigrants do not only compete to supply workers for low income jobs, they also increase demand for goods and services that citizens provide. Most experts who have studied the matter agree that even low skill poor immigrants are a net benefit to the domestic economy.


Nation-states are most certainly not legitimate or desirable entities.
[Citation needed]

Moderator Action: <snip>link to racist screed deleted and user gets a time off from this thread - ori.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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Mohammed the brain surgeon isn't going to be in illegal immigrant.

Yes, yet those opposed to those darned illegals also end up outing themselves as being opposed to anyone that doesn't happen to share their skin colour and culture, be they legal or not. The post after yours demonstrates it fairly well.

If you're an illegal, your job choices are limited. In all likelihood, the job you have is not a job that will be stolen from a full-blooded American as a full-blooded American (feel free to convert to the nation you live in) would huff at the notion of toiling in a field under the sun for $3/hr or working in the back of a kitchen in exchange for room and board. If you're legal, then it's a moot point to consider as it's already proven that the addition of a functional member of society is better for that society than the absence of addition, and the competitiveness you face is something that will exist with or without immigrants.

[Citation needed]

Moderator Action: <snip> - ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Awesome way to link your IQ quackery in a thread where it doesn't belong, mate.

Sick bias, too.

"Hispanics are also more likely than Whites to engage in degenerate sexual behavior."

What is degenerate behaviour, you may ask? Getting pregnant outside of marriage, divorce, and abortion.

"In conclusion, the supposed economic benefits of Hispanic immigration are illusory. By contrast, the economic, political, and social, costs are very real. America is harmed by Hispanic immigration, not helped, and for any government that puts America’s interest first there is only one way to deal with Hispanic immigration: reverse it."

You see, the facts support my racism. Look at all these facts. You have to be a fool not to enact anti-Hispanic policies.

By the way, did you know Hispanics don't want to vote Republican? VERY STRANGE.

Moderator Action: you are responsible for all contents of your posts - this includes quotes. So don't quote things that defy forum rules - ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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Awesome way to link your IQ quackery in a thread where it doesn't belong, mate.

Sick bias, too.

"Hispanics are also more likely than Whites to engage in degenerate sexual behavior."

What is degenerate behaviour, you may ask? Getting pregnant outside of marriage, divorce, and abortion.

"In conclusion, the supposed economic benefits of Hispanic immigration are illusory. By contrast, the economic, political, and social, costs are very real. America is harmed by Hispanic immigration, not helped, and for any government that puts America’s interest first there is only one way to deal with Hispanic immigration: reverse it."

You see, the facts support my racism. Look at all these facts. You have to be a fool not to enact anti-Hispanic policies.

By the way, did you know Hispanics don't want to vote Republican? VERY STRANGE.

Another linking of a literal Nazi website, absolutely wonderful.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ryan_Faulk
That's the best you can do? Confronted with facts, and unable to refute them, you guys simply retreat to name-calling? This is the problem with your world-view. It's wrong. That's why you can't defend it. You can screech all you want, but reality is reality
 
What name did I call you?

I think it's more than fair to call out the phrasing used by the 'facts' you attempt to spread. It is a decidedly right-wing phenomena for all these hit pieces to use charged language that is based on judgemental biases instead of actual facts. If the facts supported your position, you wouldn't need to package them every single time with sick burns and hostile language. Hispanics having more marital issues and seeking abortion could be useful information, but not when you present it as "look at these degenerates and their degenerate behaviour".

It is also not a fact that you need to kick out the Hispanics if you're "America First". That's just right-wing rhetoric.
 
That's the best you can do? Confronted with facts, and unable to refute them, you guys simply retreat to name-calling? This is the problem with your world-view. It's wrong. That's why you can't defend it. You can screech all you want, but reality is reality

There are no facts in what you posted, it is just a racist screed.
 
Yes, yet those opposed to those darned illegals also end up outing themselves as being opposed to anyone that doesn't happen to share their skin colour and culture, be they legal or not.

Well that's complete nonsense isn't it.
 
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Yes, yet those opposed to those darned illegals also end up outing themselves as being opposed to anyone that doesn't happen to share their skin colour and culture, be they legal or not. The post after yours demonstrates it fairly well.

If you're an illegal, your job choices are limited. In all likelihood, the job you have is not a job that will be stolen from a full-blooded American as a full-blooded American (feel free to convert to the nation you live in) would huff at the notion of toiling in a field under the sun for $3/hr or working in the back of a kitchen in exchange for room and board. If you're legal, then it's a moot point to consider as it's already proven that the addition of a functional member of society is better for that society than the absence of addition, and the competitiveness you face is something that will exist with or without immigrants.



Awesome way to link your IQ quackery in a thread where it doesn't belong, mate.

Sick bias, too.

"Hispanics are also more likely than Whites to engage in degenerate sexual behavior."

What is degenerate behaviour, you may ask? Getting pregnant outside of marriage, divorce, and abortion.

"In conclusion, the supposed economic benefits of Hispanic immigration are illusory. By contrast, the economic, political, and social, costs are very real. America is harmed by Hispanic immigration, not helped, and for any government that puts America’s interest first there is only one way to deal with Hispanic immigration: reverse it."

You see, the facts support my racism. Look at all these facts. You have to be a fool not to enact anti-Hispanic policies.

By the way, did you know Hispanics don't want to vote Republican? VERY STRANGE.

Doesn’t your post that illegal immigrants are willing to work in poor conditions for very low wages actually go against your argument that they’re not taking jobs from the working class who simply expect decent jobs?

I’m not totally convinced illegal immigrants are stealing jobs in large numbers, it could be employers would still have trouble filling those jobs regardless and it can also bring up prices if they employ people legally, like one of the reasons the Asian nail salons are so cheap.

BUT, I’m not so convinced that illegal immigrants taking jobs from the working class isn’t a cause of concern and anyone who is concerned about it is just racist against “brown people.”

And the idea that there should be no borders at all and everything will turn out fine - sounds pretty far fetched.
 
What name did I call you?

I think it's more than fair to call out the phrasing used by the 'facts' you attempt to spread. It is a decidedly right-wing phenomena for all these hit pieces to use charged language that is based on judgemental biases instead of actual facts. If the facts supported your position, you wouldn't need to package them every single time with sick burns and hostile language. Hispanics having more marital issues and seeking abortion could be useful information, but not when you present it as "look at these degenerates and their degenerate behaviour".

It is also not a fact that you need to kick out the Hispanics if you're "America First". That's just right-wing rhetoric.
The comment about name calling was addressed to Lexicus. As for the facts, they do support my position. I posted a well-sourced article with citations, whereas the people who support immigration have presented nothing so far. As for the abortion data, think of that whatever you will, but I think this was originally about budget and crime data, something which the article covers
 
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No, it isn't. People who think illegal immigrants are to blame for illegal immigration are just racist morons, full stop.

Of course it's nonsense, for the same reason this statement is nonsense:

"Those opposed to people driving cars without a licence are all actually just against people driving cars in general, whether they have a licence or not."
 
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