How much of Christianity can be ahistorical?

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mendacious and evil serpent who happened to be satan. Satan himself was not created evil and indeed was originally amongst the highest of the angelic hosts, but he fell from his original condition due to an irrevocable and final sin of his free choice.
 
Free will, free will, free will. Got it, heathen??!!
 
Nope, I don't.

Free will allows to chose from the options presented. If none of them are evil, how did evil originate?
 
The "original" sin was not accepting God.

Satan did not accept that God was God.

Adam trusted Eve more than He trusted God. Eve was too good for Adam, that he did not need God.

Satan knew that he was too good for God and that he could replace God.

God is light and no darkness can exist in His presence. Sin is not evil. Sin is embracing the darkness and not accepting God as God.

Satan choose to be his own God. Adam choose to follow Eve and did not trust God enough to not partake and disobey God.

When God is not allowed by choice, He does not force Himself, but allows humans to be in darkness.

Of course, if humanity focuses on the "humanticizing" of God, they will never see God as He really Is. In other words trying to describe God in our terms will always fail. Unless God reveals Himself to us, in His terms we will never "get it".
 
Right. Inventing fanciful genealogies to improve one's prestige was never done in the Middle Ages
Just to clarify, I was being sarcastic on that one. Really though, in both cases, the individual in question isn't as important as what they symbolize. Arthur stood for noble character and rightful rule, and Adam stood for all of humanity, with the others mentioned in the genealogy showing a lineage the best and worst of what humanity has to offer. In the Incarnation, God identified with that lineage and took it upon Himself. To me that's a lot more significant of a statement than noting that the text indicates the existence of individual named Adam who lived some 5000 years prior.
Huh? Jesus wasn't the son of Joseph, except by adoption, or out of courtesy. So Joseph's lineage is irrelevant. The person whose lineage matters in this story is MARY - but since when did the Bible ever worry about women's lineages? (the only examples I can think of are in Genesis, with Rachel, Leah, and Dinah).
Actually, some scholars have held that the Lucan genealogy is tracing the descent of Christ through the Theotokos.


Huh? (again) So Adam and Jesus are brothers? Brother #2 had to be crucified to redeem the sins of mankind that were caused because Brother #1 and Sister-in-law #1 ate a piece of fruit after being tempted by a talking snake? :crazyeye:
Christ is the only begotten son of God, not the only son, period, no exceptions.
 
Just to clarify, I was being sarcastic on that one.
My comment was directed at Classical's delightfully ridiculous statement, not yours. I guessed that you weren't being entirely serious (for once).
 
I think that the opening sections of Genesis are open to interpretation, i.e. a few possible directions they could go. The rest I believe is as historically accurate as man could get it.
 
I think that the opening sections of Genesis are open to interpretation, i.e. a few possible directions they could go. The rest I believe is as historically accurate as man could get it.

Why? How did you decide which bits were literal and which were not?
 
If you believe that Methuselah died 969 years old and that Noah's Ark was able to sustain all of the world species for an extended period of time, what makes you doubt Genesis?
 
Personally, I'm not committed to the literal historicity of the first, say, 11 chapters of Genesis; they read an awful lot like other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths. And I think one can still be a Christian and not affirm the literal historicity of the events in those stories.

I'm pretty committed to the story of Jesus - virgin birth, death, resurrection, ascension - and I am confident that those are necessary conditions for Christianity. But are they sufficient? I'm not sure.
I too believe you can be a Christian and not believe the total historical value of the first part of genesis, or even all of the old testament. The new testament is a different story but it has been interpreted in many different ways in the past two millenia.

The belief that all scripture is literal and inerrant is largely a modern one stemming from the fundamentalist movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I believe that due to the Living aspect of it particularly the new testament, different cultures have and will get totally different things out of individual sections and still be Christian in the sense of following Christ.

The living aspect is the idea that Scripture is a medium which God uses to communicate to his followers.
 
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself why you're following this religion in the first place. If there wasn't the promise of salvation, would you just jack it in and ignore everything that God has taught you? Of course you wouldn't; we're following the Christian way of life because we think it's the best way to live, and with that in mind - who cares about the historical accuracy of the bible? If Jesus never ascended into heaven, does that invalidate everything he said about loving your neighbour? If Moses wrote the Ten Commandments in his tent instead of getting them from God on Mount Sinai, does that make theft and murder OK?

That said, I view the Bible as a historical and philosophical book, written by people who were inspired by God. Now, that means that their preception of events was probably mostly accurate, but will have had gaps - just like any other history book, particularly one from the time (Tacitus, for example, presents as fact a Roman woman giving birth to a snake) - which will have been filled with hearsay or plain improvisation, and the philosophical parts will include existing beliefs (hence the prejudice, inherited from old Jewish law, found in parts of the New Testament against gays) or misinterpretations by the writers. It's up to us to read the thing and work out which are the good parts and which aren't, and we can do this because we know, from our daily experience, what this God fellow's like and we should be able to immediately spot something in the Bible which is clearly not in line with his nature.
 
I think in order to meaningfully be called a Christian you need to believe that there was a man that we call Jesus Christ who was the Son of God and was not conceived from a man, was executed, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven with a promise of some sort of eventual return.

Not that there's not more that I think you should believe. But if you, say, believe that Jesus never rose from the dead, or ran away to the Sudan and died of cancer at 62, then I think you're talking about an entirely different figure and religion entirely. (Also, please note that I'm talking about historical facts. I think you also need to hold some sort of belief or expressed desire for salvation, too.)

Yeah, this sums up my position as well. Prayer and careful study can help reveal the parts which should be literal, which ones aren't, and for which ones it really doesn't matter. You've summed up the important basics of Christianity. If you stick with that, you're in a good place, and whether Genesis 6 happens or not becomes less of an issue.
 
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself why you're following this religion in the first place. If there wasn't the promise of salvation, would you just jack it in and ignore everything that God has taught you? Of course you wouldn't; we're following the Christian way of life because we think it's the best way to live, and with that in mind - who cares about the historical accuracy of the bible? If Jesus never ascended into heaven, does that invalidate everything he said about loving your neighbour? If Moses wrote the Ten Commandments in his tent instead of getting them from God on Mount Sinai, does that make theft and murder OK?

That said, I view the Bible as a historical and philosophical book, written by people who were inspired by God. Now, that means that their preception of events was probably mostly accurate, but will have had gaps - just like any other history book, particularly one from the time (Tacitus, for example, presents as fact a Roman woman giving birth to a snake) - which will have been filled with hearsay or plain improvisation, and the philosophical parts will include existing beliefs (hence the prejudice, inherited from old Jewish law, found in parts of the New Testament against gays) or misinterpretations by the writers. It's up to us to read the thing and work out which are the good parts and which aren't, and we can do this because we know, from our daily experience, what this God fellow's like and we should be able to immediately spot something in the Bible which is clearly not in line with his nature.

What you confuse as 'bible rules' are actually just rules set by the society you live in now, made over time.
Even the laws of our countries don't tell us what to do, it's us, who make the laws who decide what's in there. Not the bible but the moral compass we all have make the rules. Sure for some the compass is broke, but it's broke evenly among believers as among non-believers.
 
I think in order to meaningfully be called a Christian you need to believe that there was a man that we call Jesus Christ who was the Son of God and was not conceived from a man.

I don't see why Christians must believe that God mated with Mary in order to create Jesus. It sounds so primitive. It sounds like something even the ancient Greeks would roll their eyes over. Why can't you be a Christian if you believe that God "adopted" Jesus as his own son and made Jesus a part of himself or something.

Wouldn't it be more natural to draw the line at "God, through Jesus, sacrificed himself in order to save humanity."
 
What you confuse as 'bible rules' are actually just rules set by the society you live in now, made over time.
Even the laws of our countries don't tell us what to do, it's us, who make the laws who decide what's in there. Not the bible but the moral compass we all have make the rules. Sure for some the compass is broke, but it's broke evenly among believers as among non-believers.

Not sure what you're getting at here, if I'm honest. Certainly it's our moral compass which makes us follow rules when it becomes disadvantageous to do so, but the Bible lays out what I think is just about the best set of rules to follow that anyone's ever come up with - which includes the gem of 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's', so it's a religious code of conduct that should never clash with a secular one.
 
I don't see why Christians must believe that God mated with Mary in order to create Jesus. It sounds so primitive. It sounds like something even the ancient Greeks would roll their eyes over. Why can't you be a Christian if you believe that God "adopted" Jesus as his own son and made Jesus a part of himself or something.

Wouldn't it be more natural to draw the line at "God, through Jesus, sacrificed himself in order to save humanity."
And God wasn't even MARRIED to Mary. Thanks God, that's what I call leading by example ;)
 
The essence of the faith is in the message, not the historicity. In what way does the debate over whether or not Jesus literally rose from the dead impact upon how I live out my faith?

Because, according to the canonical gospels, Jesus' resurrection happened and was a central part of his "message". I think that's pretty hard to deny.

There are a few possible ways to go from there:
(a) One could say the canonical gospels are wrong about the event and right about the teaching. So "my faith" is based on a teacher who was wrong about a key thing. It would be like taking investment advice from Bernie Madoff.... I'm sure he knows his stuff, but he failed the biggest test of all.
(b) One could say the canonical gospels are wrong about the event and the teaching. But then what sources for the "message" will you accept?
(c) One could say that the "message" is different from the gospels' presentation of Jesus' teaching. E.g., "the message" is really that we should love everyone and there is no hell. However, this will certainly impact how you live out "my faith", because you will struggle to find other people to agree with you, and you must have a new criterion to be the standard. It is at least possible, and in historical experience likely, that the new criterion will result in different ethical and doctrinal outcomes from a criterion that accepts Jesus' resurrection.

In each case, your view of the resurrection will make a great difference to how you live out "my faith". It may be "my faith", but it is much less likely to be "the faith" of a community.

I'm sure there are other options, but these are enough to make my point.


Lillefix said:
I don't see why Christians must believe that God mated with Mary in order to create Jesus. It sounds so primitive. It sounds like something even the ancient Greeks would roll their eyes over. Why can't you be a Christian if you believe that God "adopted" Jesus as his own son and made Jesus a part of himself or something.

Can you give a Christian source that uses the word "mated", "had sex with" or equivalent words for the relationship between God and Mary?

You might find the Wikipedia article on monarchianism, and the links from it, informative. Then again, you might have a PhD in theology... hard to tell on the Web. :-)
 
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