How should the West contain Russia?

[Yeekim]

Not exactly. "Color revolutions" happened in those countries after elections and newly formed government asked the Soviets in. Like in Georgia. Populations came later to build infrastructure, to live and to work. Just like Americans to America.

Semantic argument...brief history lesson is in order.

Spoiler :

On September 24, 1939 warships of the Soviet Navy appeared off Estonian ports and Soviet bombers began a threatening patrol over Tallinn and the nearby countryside. Moscow demanded that Estonia allow the USSR to establish military bases and station 25,000 troops on Estonian soil for the duration of the European war. The government of Estonia accepted the ultimatum signing the corresponding agreement on September 28. 1939.

On June 16, the Soviet Union invaded Estonia and presented an ultimatum, demanding the replacement of the Estonian government and free access for Soviet troops. The Red Army emerged from the military bases in Estonia and, aided by an additional 90,000 Soviet troops, took over the country, occupying the territories of Republic of Estonia, and organizing and supporting communist protests all over the country.

On June 17, Estonia accepted the ultimatum. The Estonian government decided according to the Kellogg-Briand Pact not to defend themselves; given the overwhelming Soviet force both on the borders and inside the country, the order was given not to resist, to avoid bloodshed and open war.

On June 21, 1940, the Soviet occupation of the Republic of Estonia was complete. The Flag of Estonia was replaced with a Red flag on Pikk Hermann tower.

On June 21 the President Konstantin Päts (deported to Ufa on July 30 and later arrested) formed a new government under Prime Minister Johannes Vares.

On July 14-15 the rigged, extraordinary single-party parliamentary election were held where all but pro-Communist candidates were outlawed. People were forced to vote under the threat of prosecution, and those who didn't were later arrested on charges of treason and executed. Tribunals were set up to punish "traitors to the people." those who had fallen short of the "political duty" of voting Estonia into the USSR. The communist "Union of the Estonian Working People" "won" an absolute majority of seats. On July 21 the parliament (Riigivolikogu) proclaimed the formation of the Estonian SSR, and, despite the promises given before the election, petitioned to join the Soviet Union on July 22. In response the Estonian SSR was formally incorporated into the Soviet Union (USSR) on August 6, 1940, and nominally became the 16th constituent republic of the USSR.

http://www.okupatsioon.ee/nimekirjad/raamat/kgbdok/valitsus.html
This is the Estonian government which unfortunately accepted June 17 ultimatum.
Out of 13, 6 died in Soviet prison camps.
5 were executed in Soviet prisons.
1 died fighting Soviet paratroopers.
1 did not return into Estonia from Geneva and thus escaped.

So yeah, not really an occupation. We asked to join.

 

[Provolution]

Yukos comes to mind. What else?
I remember the hysteria that happened around that Baltic sea pipeline.
The other way around is hard to see because Russian money is not as involved in the West as vice-versa.

There have been several, even numerous, dirty Russian scams, like sudden trade embargos on dubious grounds, Russian trade officials demanding bribes or face trade sanctions, Western investors squeezed out by intimidation or corrupt courts. Alfagroup and Mikhail Friedman comes to mind as a big dirty player. Russian mafia has been buying up minor Western European security companies, in order to get access to soft targets. (Russia needs to clean up the Russian Mafia, like Mussolini did to the Sicilian Mafia).

Also, why is Putin good for 40 billion USD, when he had little money in 2000?

Also, why are so many of the Russian oligarchs Jews? Just asking?

Russia is simply an unsafe place to live, a lot of Russians die young there too. I am sad that Russian elite runs with their money, but again it is logical for them to do so. This kind of proves that they do not act in the best interests of a nation do they?

That is true, in the armed forces alone, a lot of young men are wrecked, killed or driven to suicide. Average lifespan is 58 for males, where it is 65 in India, a 3rd world country, and a lot of Russian women are divorced or try to get hooked on various internet bride services and dating.

Great! Lets start with Kosovo. If that is done I am sure other areas would follow.

I agree, Kosovars are crime driven scum like the Serbs and Russians, so they should give Mitrovica and about 10 % of Kosovo to Serbia, following that river as a natural border.

250 000 were scared out of Abkhasia and 20 000 out of Ossetia. Western Europe is not a party to the Russian tradition of transplanting populations back and forth (Maybe the Germans have been there before).

NATO has done a great share of that in Yugoslavia acting though local militias. You just mentioned Bosnia. Russian force were not involved in ethnic cleansing of Abkhazia and Ossetia, Georgians and other locals were.
Whats the point of this to the thread OP?
[/QUOTE]

Russians forces were indeed involved in the ethnic cleansing, even using Shamil Basayev, Chechens and Cossacks, as well as FSB and militias to do the work. There were ample funding from Moscow for this adventure.

Not exactly. "Color revolutions" happened in those countries after elections and newly formed government asked the Soviets in. Like in Georgia. Populations came later to build infrastructure, to live and to work. Just like Americans to America.

There were not color revolutions there. It was direct invasions of overwhelming force. Estonia had guerrillas (Forest Brothers) fighting the Russians well into the sixties. The success of Estonia in the absence of Russian rule, is a great example.

What should?

Their constitutions should be rooted in their national traditions, not the Russian settlement policies (like the Israelis on the Westbank, or White people in South Africa). I am a bit of nationalist there, not imperialist or colonialist.

Kaliningrad is the spoils of war paid for with the blood of 20m people, half killed in concentration camps ran by the Germans aided by Baltians, Ukrainians and others. Why US is planning to give back the islands in the mediattanean? Or Puerto Rico? China giving back Tibet? Albanians Kosovo?

Spoils of war, indeed. If that is the case, I know a good number of other borders should be revised as well.

Good, me too.

We both agree that Georgians are inept, and not worth the trouble.

While I agree with you there in principle, the West has a perfect ground to apply this principle: former Yugoslavia. Lets start the work together!

We have a perfect ground, yes, so let us handle Georgia the way we handled Ex Yugoslavia.

Despite what Western media was saying, it is exactly what happened. Things worked according to the market.

Maybe Russian market models, but still market. If the source is too unreliable, other means will be sought elsewhere.

I am glad you agree on my plan for Ukraine and lack of it for Belarus as well as other statements.

Ukraine are the same kind of people as Russians, and belong with Russia.

I agree that at least some money should stay at home.

Then you need to work for a stronger and healthier regulatory climate in Russia, not defending it, apologizing for it, pretending its healthy, covering up obvious pitfalls or relativizing it to other dysfunctional nations and models.
Fix it, not cover it up!
Roman Law makes perfect sense, defend private ownership, or responsibility will be pulverized, do not oppose a 3000 year old legal tradition that works.

Abuses are being brought (despite bureaucracy and attitudes) and are being won. For this I thank the EU. Baltic states could take the initiative themselves, but I guess it is up the people and I hope this will be done. EU cant leverage any EU citizen against Moscow because they do not make a significant proportion of the population anywhere to be counted. Russians in ex-USSR do.

Russians make a number in the EU, yes, but they cannot strongarm the EU with the help of official Russian military backing, as Medvedev has stated.

 

[Provolution]

Semantic argument...brief history lesson is in order.

Spoiler :

On September 24, 1939 warships of the Soviet Navy appeared off Estonian ports and Soviet bombers began a threatening patrol over Tallinn and the nearby countryside. Moscow demanded that Estonia allow the USSR to establish military bases and station 25,000 troops on Estonian soil for the duration of the European war. The government of Estonia accepted the ultimatum signing the corresponding agreement on September 28. 1939.

On June 16, the Soviet Union invaded Estonia and presented an ultimatum, demanding the replacement of the Estonian government and free access for Soviet troops. The Red Army emerged from the military bases in Estonia and, aided by an additional 90,000 Soviet troops, took over the country, occupying the territories of Republic of Estonia, and organizing and supporting communist protests all over the country.

On June 17, Estonia accepted the ultimatum. The Estonian government decided according to the Kellogg-Briand Pact not to defend themselves; given the overwhelming Soviet force both on the borders and inside the country, the order was given not to resist, to avoid bloodshed and open war.

On June 21, 1940, the Soviet occupation of the Republic of Estonia was complete. The Flag of Estonia was replaced with a Red flag on Pikk Hermann tower.

On June 21 the President Konstantin Päts (deported to Ufa on July 30 and later arrested) formed a new government under Prime Minister Johannes Vares.

On July 14-15 the rigged, extraordinary single-party parliamentary election were held where all but pro-Communist candidates were outlawed. People were forced to vote under the threat of prosecution, and those who didn't were later arrested on charges of treason and executed. Tribunals were set up to punish "traitors to the people." those who had fallen short of the "political duty" of voting Estonia into the USSR. The communist "Union of the Estonian Working People" "won" an absolute majority of seats. On July 21 the parliament (Riigivolikogu) proclaimed the formation of the Estonian SSR, and, despite the promises given before the election, petitioned to join the Soviet Union on July 22. In response the Estonian SSR was formally incorporated into the Soviet Union (USSR) on August 6, 1940, and nominally became the 16th constituent republic of the USSR.

http://www.okupatsioon.ee/nimekirjad/raamat/kgbdok/valitsus.html
This is the Estonian government which unfortunately accepted June 17 ultimatum.
Out of 13, 6 died in Soviet prison camps.
5 were executed in Soviet prisons.
1 died fighting Soviet paratroopers.
1 did not return into Estonia from Geneva and thus escaped.

So yeah, not really an occupation. We asked to join.

Obviously, Russian creative interpretation of history still prevails, and is the biggest risk for the West, their perpetual denial of crystal clear facts mixed with fervent national jingoism.

 

[Gelion]

Semantic argument...brief history lesson is in order.

Spoiler :

On September 24, 1939 warships of the Soviet Navy appeared off Estonian ports and Soviet bombers began a threatening patrol over Tallinn and the nearby countryside. Moscow demanded that Estonia allow the USSR to establish military bases and station 25,000 troops on Estonian soil for the duration of the European war. The government of Estonia accepted the ultimatum signing the corresponding agreement on September 28. 1939.

On June 16, the Soviet Union invaded Estonia and presented an ultimatum, demanding the replacement of the Estonian government and free access for Soviet troops. The Red Army emerged from the military bases in Estonia and, aided by an additional 90,000 Soviet troops, took over the country, occupying the territories of Republic of Estonia, and organizing and supporting communist protests all over the country.

On June 17, Estonia accepted the ultimatum. The Estonian government decided according to the Kellogg-Briand Pact not to defend themselves; given the overwhelming Soviet force both on the borders and inside the country, the order was given not to resist, to avoid bloodshed and open war.

On June 21, 1940, the Soviet occupation of the Republic of Estonia was complete. The Flag of Estonia was replaced with a Red flag on Pikk Hermann tower.

On June 21 the President Konstantin Päts (deported to Ufa on July 30 and later arrested) formed a new government under Prime Minister Johannes Vares.

On July 14-15 the rigged, extraordinary single-party parliamentary election were held where all but pro-Communist candidates were outlawed. People were forced to vote under the threat of prosecution, and those who didn't were later arrested on charges of treason and executed. Tribunals were set up to punish "traitors to the people." those who had fallen short of the "political duty" of voting Estonia into the USSR. The communist "Union of the Estonian Working People" "won" an absolute majority of seats. On July 21 the parliament (Riigivolikogu) proclaimed the formation of the Estonian SSR, and, despite the promises given before the election, petitioned to join the Soviet Union on July 22. In response the Estonian SSR was formally incorporated into the Soviet Union (USSR) on August 6, 1940, and nominally became the 16th constituent republic of the USSR.

http://www.okupatsioon.ee/nimekirjad/raamat/kgbdok/valitsus.html
This is the Estonian government which unfortunately accepted June 17 ultimatum.
Out of 13, 6 died in Soviet prison camps.
5 were executed in Soviet prisons.
1 died fighting Soviet paratroopers.
1 did not return into Estonia from Geneva and thus escaped.

So yeah, not really an occupation. We asked to join.

15 of June Soviets demanded that Soviets governments are to be established in the Baltic states. EST and LAT accepted. Most of the government supported that action. The option to fight was there all along.
http://istorik.org/?p=1132
I admit that I was wrong there. Ultimatums came first, then did typical Soviet elections.
However the option to fight was there all the time, like the Danish or the French.

 

[Yeekim]

Estonia had guerrillas (Forest Brothers) fighting the Russians well into the sixties.

The very last one actually held on as long as until 1978.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Sabbe

 

[Provolution]

15 of June Soviets demanded that Soviets governments are to be established in the Baltic states. EST and LAT accepted. Most of the government supported that action. The option to fight was there all along.
http://istorik.org/?p=1132
I admit that I was wrong there. Ultimatums came first, then did typical Soviet elections.
However the option to fight was there all the time, like the Danish or the French.

The Germans were kind to the Danish and French in comparison, even if these two governments decided to fight the Germans. Look at Denmark and France today, and compare this to Estonia and Poland?

 

[Yeekim]

However the option to fight was there all the time, like the Danish or the French.

Pretty fair fight would that have been...
However we did fight back, as you could see from my previous post.
Some even until 1978.
That is why we are widely being called fascists to this day...

 

[Gelion]

Pretty fair fight would that have been...
However we did fight back, as you could see from my previous post.
Some even until 1978.
That is why we are widely being called fascists to this day...

I meant in 1940. I saw no uprisings then. That is all I meant.
You are called fascists because of your treatment of Jews, Russian PoVs and Russian minority today.

 

[Yeekim]

The Germans were kind to the Danish and French in comparison, even if these two governments decided to fight the Germans. Look at Denmark and France today, and compare this to Estonia and Poland?

You get better comparison if you take Chechnya. Entire population down to the last child was deported as punishment for providing assistance to Germans during WW2. Well, to be honest, when Stalin died, Khrushchev allowed them to return.

 

[Cato the Elder]

I'm with the "get russia in the EU crowd". Do whatever we can to improve all possible ties with Russia, most definetly don't look at them as an enemy, but as an ally, but despite this not let them control us either, and demand that they adhere to international law. (a good start would be by not repeating Georgia)

The last thing we need to do is go and reignite the cold war as Winner's suggesting.

 

[Shekwan]

How to contain the Russian threat? What should Europe and the West as a whole do?

Europeans have been asking themselves this question since the 19the century or maybe earlier. Russia is always the threat. It's a wonder western Europe hasn't collapsed altogether I mean this ''Russian threat'' has existed for hundereds of years.

1)Don't like gas? Go Nuclear.
2)Don't like Russian business? Stick with the US and China.
3)Democratic countries don't go to war with each other, nor do nuclear powers. Two solid laws of international relations that allow me to sleep at night without crapping myself about the ''Russian threat''.

 

[Zelig]

Nuke all the countries formerly under Soviet influence, so the Russians won't want them anymore.

 

[warpus]

how to contain the Russian threat? What should Europe and the West as a whole do?

The west should not attempt to "contain" Russia.

That would play right into Putin's hands... it would make Russian leadership even more paranoid in a "we told you so" kinda way.

It would create more problems than it would solve.

 

[Defiant47]

how to contain the Russian threat? What should Europe and the West as a whole do?

Absolve NATO (or invite Russia into it). Start treating Russia as a friend, and stop clinging to paranoid delusions.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

After Russia will be in the EU we could rename it to EurasianUnion and start picking asian countries too.

Well I still find it bizarre when anyone ever considers it anything but a european country.

I think the real question is if it's a central european country or an eastern european country.

 

[Winner]

The west should not attempt to "contain" Russia.

That would play right into Putin's hands... it would make Russian leadership even more paranoid in a "we told you so" kinda way.

It would create more problems than it would solve.

So what's your solution? Just give up and give them everything they want? Abandon the threatened countries? This would not help the Russian regime?

Please. Containment is the only way. It has always been.

Absolve NATO (or invite Russia into it). Start treating Russia as a friend, and stop clinging to paranoid delusions.

What's absolve? If you mean dissolve, then you're insane. NATO is the only think that still scares the crap out of Russian militarists. If it wasn't for this organization, Baltic states and Ukraine would now be under Russian occupation.

 

[Shekwan]

So what's your solution? Just give up and give them everything they want? Abandon the threatened countries? This would not help the Russian regime?

Please. Containment is the only way. It has always been.

Abandon them to what?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

how to contain the Russian threat? What should Europe and the West as a whole do?

For Europe:
1. Remove all fanatics (such as you, Winner) from European governments.
2. Tell USA/NATO administration to get lost. Stop wiping of US ass.
3. Build self-dependant power after all. Stop all this ideological brain f*****g.
4. Favour Russia to join WTO, so it could take off the oil needle.
5. Equip all russophobe fanatics with trotyl and M16 and land them about Moscow [joke].

 

[scy12]

The West should attempt to cooperate with Russia and solve all problems under the table by not making threatening Political statements. Especially Greece. Thankfully our Foreigin minister atleast says that she knows what she is doing. She supported Nato to follow that strategy at the Nato conference , and in truth it appears the ones who shared her opinion where more than those who disagreed. Europe is not US . We have different interests. It is not in our interest to continue this hot headed atmosphere. It may be In the interests of the Russians. And against the interest of Eastern European countries. But it seems there Brain isn't fuctioning much. If Russia must be contained it is better to contain it in different ways , than the ones we currently seen.

For example. Say Ukraine wants to take of Krimea. When is the best time to do that. Now on the spotlight while Russia would have many reasons to react (and one may think that they want them to react ). Or in a different time ?

You think too much with emotion winner.

 

[Winner]

Another nail into the coffin of Russian diplomatic credibility:

Russia recognized S. Ossetia and Abkhazia.

This is in breach of the cease-fire agreement. I wonder what points Russia does fulfil.

Russia just uncovered how hypocritic it really is. Just a while ago it criticized the West for doing similar thing in Kosovo, now it is OK to do the same thing.