How to get a job (or not)

[REDY]

Play a lot of computer games, get friends from there, get job offers from them. Worked in my case, my CEO is my friend from online game

 

[nc-1701]

Thanks for the replies everyone

Make friends in companies who are more concerned about hiring smart people rather than checking off HR boxes, get them to hire you.

I went from a math degree to stats/software work for clinical research, to software work for a web startup, to analysis/software work for a large conglomerate. My previous experience has generally been negligibly relevant to the actual work I do.

This feels like where I need to be, I guess my question is how do I identify such places? What do I look for in a job ad that will indicate they are looking for smart people over HR tick boxes? And beyond telling them my education what kinds of things go into my application to actually convince them I am smart?

Either an actuary (depending on how much calculus you've taken) or go to the NSA?

Spoiler :

I have a degree in math, did you really ask how much calculus I've taken?

Seriously though actuary is one of my top possibilities, but I'm not sure that I have the time/energy right now to complete the P-exam before getting a job. And without it, my actuary job options will be limited. At one time I was very interested in the NSA, but at this point I've said enough positive things about Snowden, that I can't see ever getting the right security clearances.

Look for "analyst" jobs of any variety. That's what I did when I graduated with a Physics degree but with no interest in doing it academically.

Thanks

Anyone with a math degree and a bit of hustle is in the clear. Seriously, I can't think of a degree with a stronger hustle-potential than math. If I had a math degree I'd have already cashed in AND out.

That's what everyone says, I'm sure I'll believe it soon enough, but having never been outside academics I don't "get" the system yet.



New question:
In my resume how much should I add about non-curricular activities/interests? For example I really like Chess and played competitively as a teenager, should I talk about that? I've done Aikido (martial art) since I was a teenager and am reasonably ranked, should I mention that?

 

[illram]

Put activities if they are relevant or if you have intelligence on who will be reviewing your resume and know it will be well received. I have applicants put all kinds of weird stuff in their activities, I truly have no clue why they think that is at all helpful. For instance one person put "Game of Thrones" as an activity. Seriously? (This was for a clerk position at our law firm this summer.)

Aikido with a high rank? Maybe. Could show discipline. Competitive chess? Who is the audience? Do you get the sense they want brainy people or tacticians? I actually would be interested to speak with a competitive chess player...that might work on me. The danger is if you do not know who is reviewing your resume you have no idea how that will be received. It's luck of the draw. For instance someone who does not know Aikido or what martial arts are really about might think "oh so this person thinks they're some sort of badass, I don't want violent egotistical people here NEXT." But if you know the person looking at your resume does Aikido, or loves chess, then that's an easy call.

Usually I think the safest advice--again, if you do not know or have reason to know that your activities will be considered relevant or reflect positively--is to put "activities" that bear some relation to the job. E.g., volunteering at some organization that is related, or membership in some organization that is related, that sort of thing, or some sort of college club that is related, or something.

 

[RobAnybody]

Play a lot of computer games, get friends from there, get job offers from them. Worked in my case, my CEO is my friend from online game

This a bit over the top (play video games to find a job!) but not too far from the truth. It's still mostly about who you know rather than what you know, at least as far as getting your foot in the door.

When we get an open position at our company, we get dozens of applications. The one person that gets picked is far too often the person that knows someone at our company. Not that they are underqualified, it's just that 90% of applications are qualified, so knowing someone who works where you're applying is the tie-breaker.

Not 100% of the time. I've seen a "friend of an employee" get passed over. But networking is always, always a GoodThing. It never hurts, even if it sometimes doesn't help.

Sucks, yes. But truth, also yes.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

" But if you know the person looking at your resume does Aikido, or loves chess, then that's an easy call.

I bet that's what the "Game of Thrones" guy was banking on. Anyway, I assume "reading" doesn't really tell the person reviewing your application anything?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

When is it appropriate to use a 2nd page on a resume? I'm still a college student, but I'm a non-traditional student so I have a lot of work experience. Most of it those experiences are irrelevant to the types of jobs I am now applying for and I do not currently list them nor do I plan to (restaurant jobs, etc).

However, I am at the point where it's very difficult to list all of my satellite team experiences/projects on a single page and retain the few past jobs and experiences I want to list such as my time on a community college board, working as a physics lab tech, and my time in a patent office. Every time I complete a new project or gain a new skill, I have to delete a line from something else in my resume and it's getting to where I can't cut anything else from the other job experiences without deleting other jobs entirely.

Is it appropriate for me to have a second page on my resume at this point? I realize it's really uncommon (and somewhat frowned upon) for undergrad students to have 2 page resumes, but I do have a strong background/work history that I would like to show off to potential employers. I also realize that most recruiters won't be looking at the second page but even still, I'd like to have it.

But I'm afraid it might get backlash as pretentious or unnecessary or something.


Also, if I should have a second page, should it be relatively full or would a half page be acceptable?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I suggest a single page. For an employer, only what is relevant to the job he/she is offering should be listed. If you have lots of skills learned from various projects, then list those skills (not the projects) as three columns of single words under a skills section. Then in an interview you could talk about all the various projects where you learned those skills. During an interview you might hand out a single, new page that lists all those projects separate from your resume. I see listing endless projects Kinda like listing courses you took. Meh. Can you post a list of the skills you have? You don't want to come across with a BS looking resume.

 

[Kennigit]

how many lines does the patent office job take up?

saying somewhere "familiar with patent filings from satellite design and [title of patent office position]" seems sufficient

 

[downtown]

When is it appropriate to use a 2nd page on a resume? I'm still a college student, but I'm a non-traditional student so I have a lot of work experience. Most of it those experiences are irrelevant to the types of jobs I am now applying for and I do not currently list them nor do I plan to (restaurant jobs, etc).

However, I am at the point where it's very difficult to list all of my satellite team experiences/projects on a single page and retain the few past jobs and experiences I want to list such as my time on a community college board, working as a physics lab tech, and my time in a patent office. Every time I complete a new project or gain a new skill, I have to delete a line from something else in my resume and it's getting to where I can't cut anything else from the other job experiences without deleting other jobs entirely.

Is it appropriate for me to have a second page on my resume at this point? I realize it's really uncommon (and somewhat frowned upon) for undergrad students to have 2 page resumes, but I do have a strong background/work history that I would like to show off to potential employers. I also realize that most recruiters won't be looking at the second page but even still, I'd like to have it.

But I'm afraid it might get backlash as pretentious or unnecessary or something.


Also, if I should have a second page, should it be relatively full or would a half page be acceptable?

So I really believe that the hard and fast "one page" rule is a relic of an era before applicant tracking systems were fully digitized. Since so much of the HR process happens with computers now, there isn't a functional difference in a one page or a three page resume...it uploads and stores all the same.

That being said, I think it's important to only list relevant information on your resume. If you have two pages worth of relevant projects or technical skills, use two. If you have four, use four (for many developers and project managers, it was common for me to get 4-6 page resumes). If you have one, use one.

Just remember that even if it's only a page, it's probable somebody won't read the entire thing, so make every bit of data on there count.

I don't think it matters if it's a page, a page and a half, 2.2 pages, etc. My own resume is two pages.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I suggest a single page. For an employer, only what is relevant to the job he/she is offering should be listed. If you have lots of skills learned from various projects, then list those skills (not the projects) as three columns of single words under a skills section. Then in an interview you could talk about all the various projects where you learned those skills. During an interview you might hand out a single, new page that lists all those projects separate from your resume. I see listing endless projects Kinda like listing courses you took. Meh. Can you post a list of the skills you have? You don't want to come across with a BS looking resume.

That would require a drastic reformatting of my resume. I've spent a long time and a lot of effort working out a format I like that also stands out (if that's even possible) both by myself and with the school's resume-formatting team. I have gotten a lot of compliments on my format from interviewers, so I'm probably not going to change it. But I appreciate the advice.

I do like the idea of having a second page specifically for the interview. I currently go to interviews with work samples (reports I've drafted, design studies I conducted, tests I've performed) and some sort of summary to go with those might be nice.

Per the 'endless projects' comment, well I don't have that many projects to list, to be honest. But I have done enough (and used the kinds of skills employers want) to warrant additional lines for them - that then bump other things out of the resume. I'm just kind of juggling things at this point.

how many lines does the patent office job take up?

saying somewhere "familiar with patent filings from satellite design and [title of patent office position]" seems sufficient

It's 3 lines total at the moment and it more or less is what you said. One of those lines is a title/location/dates worked line, while the other 2 are about the job itself. I've been told that if you have less than 2 lines about what did during a job, you shouldn't list it at all. Before I had to triage my resume, it had about 5 lines I think.

I'm also combining part-time jobs that I worked concurrently into one section (one title/location/dates worked line for 2 jobs) to save space and then using I think 3 lines to describe both jobs together. This probably sounds a lot junkier than it looks on paper and I've never been told that it's bad.

The patent office job is really relevant as employers in my industry file patents on work all the time. Being familiar with the patent system and having filed patents for clients (and one for myself) is a desirable skill so I don't want to cut that section entirely and it's already as short as it can get.

So I really believe that the hard and fast "one page" rule is a relic of an era before applicant tracking systems were fully digitized. Since so much of the HR process happens with computers now, there isn't a functional difference in a one page or a three page resume...it uploads and stores all the same.

That being said, I think it's important to only list relevant information on your resume. If you have two pages worth of relevant projects or technical skills, use two. If you have four, use four (for many developers and project managers, it was common for me to get 4-6 page resumes). If you have one, use one.

Just remember that even if it's only a page, it's probable somebody won't read the entire thing, so make every bit of data on there count.

I don't think it matters if it's a page, a page and a half, 2.2 pages, etc. My own resume is two pages.

The need to get past tracking systems has been driving the length of my resume. I haven't tried the 'paste the entire job description in your resume in white letters' approach yet, but I still have to hit those all-important key words. The challenge is to hit those key words and yet still have a 'good looking' resume for when a pair of human eyeballs gives it a look over.

I am only listing relevant information and I've trimmed out everything (from entire jobs to just single words) that don't need to be there. Once upon a time, I was an editor of a school literary journal and while that experience isn't relevant (and isn't listed) it did teach me to ruthlessly cut all the fat out of documents. So when I say I've hit the point where I need a second page, I really need a second page; I'm not just loading it down with fluff.

You don't see an issue with 2.5 pages resumes? I assumed (based on nothing, really) that a half page of white space would be really bad.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Don't try to combine the digital process with your paper resume design. Keep them separate. Have the paper resume you want and make the digital one the best format for digital processing. Apply digitally, and also send a snail mail resume and cover letter that references your electronic application.

Remember the goal of a resume: to get you name to the next step. That's all. Your cover letter's job is to relate your experience (on the resume) to the job at hand and demonstrate writing ability. If those two are well done, an interview will be forth coming.

If your experience and the job requirements are not well matched, then things get more difficult.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's really solid advice, thanks.

Too bad snail mail isn't a thing in this situation (they don't even give you address or contact names/numbers on most employers websites) and a lot of companies don't provide a space to upload or enter a cover letter.

Even still, it's great advice and I will keep this part:

Don't try to combine the digital process with your paper resume design. Keep them separate. Have the paper resume you want and make the digital one the best format for digital processing.

in mind.

 

[downtown]

FWIW, I've thrown out just about every paper resume I've gotten over the last three years. I don't want them. In my current office, none of our hiring managers will take them, including me.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I only give them at career fairs and during interviews when they ask. There is really no where to send a paper resume to in my field, it is all online.

 

[Zelig]

This feels like where I need to be, I guess my question is how do I identify such places? What do I look for in a job ad that will indicate they are looking for smart people over HR tick boxes? And beyond telling them my education what kinds of things go into my application to actually convince them I am smart?

I dunno, I mostly feel like I lucked out/played the odds by just applying to lots of jobs and talking to lots of people. I've found company job websites to be essentially worthless. I've had good luck with job applications through public sector job websites, friends passing my resume onto their bosses, friends giving me job offers, Reddit, and Canadian-equivalent of craigslist.

My first job out of university I got by applying through a university job posting several thousand km away, and then got the job offer after a couple phone and Skype interviews.

FWIW, I've thrown out just about every paper resume I've gotten over the last three years. I don't want them. In my current office, none of our hiring managers will take them, including me.

Same, I toss any paper resume I receive without reading. Honestly, I should just start tossing everything paper I receive without opening if I I'm not expecting it, I don't think I'd miss anything of value.

I went like six months at my current job before I even hooked up the network printer to my computer, and it was just so I could print out some crap that I had to sign so that I could scan my signed copy and email-to-fax it.

Re: Length: I've used resumes from 1-3 pages for various developer/program manager/analyst job and haven't seen any discernible difference in call-back rates. I tend to keep technical skills short now based on principle. I both learn and forget technical things quickly, so I feel that if I last did something two years ago picking it up again is essentially equivalent to learning a completely new thing anyway. So a list of all the different technical things I've done doesn't have any worthwhile predictive value to my work output.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I only give them at career fairs and during interviews when they ask. There is really no where to send a paper resume to in my field, it is all online.

Do you use Linked In?

There is always a place to send a paper resume. You just have to find it. Getting it read may be a challenge (see the posts above); that is where a well crafted letter plays a roll. If a job is worth making an effort for, then you have to up your game. Find out names of hiring managers or department managers. If nearby, go visit and meet them face to face. Take them to lunch. If too far away, call them; be straight about your purpose. Ask if you can send them a resume. Send resume packets FedEx. All FedEx envelopes get opened and the the first few sentences of a letter will be read. Put the letter flat in the envelope so there is no unfolding or barrier between opening the mailing envelope and reading the first sentence. Can all this get expensive? Yes. How much would you spend to get or improve the odds of getting a $75,000 job you really, really want and are well suited for?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Do you use Linked In?

Yes but I find it more of a nuisance than a help. Part of the problem is that I don't have a big network yet and it's going to take some time to build it out. The other problem is that the damn website is annoying - it's basically facebook for professionals. I'm not on facebook for a reason and I don't want to ever see updates about how my old friend gave a thumbs up to some derpface's bitcoin investment strategy. I've tried to manipulate the settings so I don't see that stuff but it essentially never goes fully away and that alone makes me not want to use it.

My profile is OK I guess, according to the built-in profile rater I'm an 'expert'.

There is always a place to send a paper resume. You just have to find it. Getting it read may be a challenge (see the posts above); that is where a well crafted letter plays a roll. If a job is worth making an effort for, then you have to up your game. Find out names of hiring managers or department managers. If nearby, go visit and meet them face to face. Take them to lunch. If too far away, call them; be straight about your purpose. Ask if you can send them a resume. Send resume packets FedEx. All FedEx envelopes get opened and the the first few sentences of a letter will be read. Put the letter flat in the envelope so there is no unfolding or barrier between opening the mailing envelope and reading the first sentence. Can all this get expensive? Yes. How much would you spend to get or improve the odds of getting a $75,000 job you really, really want and are well suited for?

This is all true and I can and should put more effort into making connections. To my credit, I have made a few including some cold calls that landed me interviews.

As for mailing in resumes - it's actually strictly disallowed at some companies (looking at you Boeing) and they really don't post information on where to send physical resumes. With that, I'm afraid if I tried to track down addresses to send unsolicited resumes to (or even in response to job offerings) when I could use the website will put me in most recruiter's bad sides. They build and maintain fancy websites for recruiting for a reason, after all. I'm basically afraid of pissing off HR people.

I do need to spend more time customizing the resumes I submit to various companies online. I don't do that enough but part of the problem is that I get so few interviews compared to the number of applications I fill out that it isn't worth my time. * Which is a mistake, ultimately. I should do better at that but don't. When I do get interviews (or when I'm applying to a job I really, really want) I produce work samples, custom resumes, do research on the companies, the whole 9 yards. But essentially I've been taking the shotgun approach to applications - one more or less standard resume I send out to most places. If I were getting more interviews or even interest, I'd be much more willing to spend the time on custom resumes as I wouldn't feel the need to apply to so many jobs. Right now I'm just trying to cast a wide net.

*I am still a full time student on a design team, so I really don't have much time to focus on a custom resume for each job when I could blast out 10 in the same amount of time. I'm not sure my success rate would be any better but I'm willing to admit I am probably wrong.


________

I do have an interview next week and face a bit of a dilemma:

It's for an internship I don't particularly want at a company I don't really know. I want to focus on the space side of Aerospace and this company is 100% aircraft components. It doesn't interest me in the slightest. But it's a job and experience will help me demand a higher salary when I graduate and potentially open up more offers.

This job is a co-op, which means I'd miss a semester of school so that I'd have to stay in an extra semester to make up for it. The pay is not great (not bad either but compared to other companies it's on the low side) however, it is near my Grandmother so I would have essentially no living expenses. This compares to the typical intern situation where you are paying rent on your own apartment plus the place you are staying during the internship plus all other expenses (electric, water, internet, etc). So that's definitely a huge plus as I could actually make a lot of money instead of breaking even.

The job is also only 2 hours away, so I could see my wife on weekends and she could come stay with me over part of the summer. That's a huge deal as well given how little I see of her these days with how busy I am.

The dilemma comes in because I'm in line for a big promotion on the satellite team. If I took the job, that would pretty much rule me out for any promotions as I'd be gone and someone else would get it. Being on the satellite team has given me a ton of experience and has really filled out my resume. However, that hasn't yet helped me land an internship and the way things are going, it doesn't look like it will help me land a full time job either.

So I'm torn really between a co-op and the satellite team. I love my work on the satellite team and that's the kind of work I want to do in my career. But a job is a job and job experience > design team experience. So I don't know. Throw in the personal factors pros (low living expenses, close to home, get to see wife) and cons (low pay, not a job I want, not the type of work I really need experience at, but experience is experience, passing up satellite team promotion) and it's really hard for me to make a decision.

Normally, I'm decisive but on this I'm literally 50/50. I will do the interview though, if nothing else but to check out the company when they give me a tour.



Of course, they may interview me but not make an offer!

 

[Zelig]

There is always a place to send a paper resume.

Eh, this clearly isn't true - as both DT and I have said, neither of our offices accept paper resumes.

My office is paper-free, if I want a resume mobile, I'll open it on a tablet. Furthermore we've got auditing requirements for applications and no storage system for paper. If I receive a paper resume I'd need to compare to see if it exactly matches an electronic one, if it doesn't I'd then need to scan it myself and put it into our electronic storage system. Far easier for me to just toss any paper resume into the secure destruction bin without reading it.

 

[downtown]

Yup. I work for a large media company, and there is 100% no place to send paper resumes. That's actually been true for most of my recruiting career.

Like Zelig, we're a totally paperless office. I don't even have a filing cabinet at my desk, so I don't have a place to *put* papers. We also spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on a digital applicant tracking system, which we not only need to store and track our candidates, but like Zelig, to comply with federal auditing reports. There is zero point in having a duplicate paper system. That just means somebody has to take the time to manually type all of their resume info into the computer system. That's not a good use of time.

I don't think this situation is super uncommon nowadays, to be honest. It saves everybody time to have your resume be 100% digital. If you insist on a paper copy, bring it during your interview (that may be useful for somebody to write notes on), but they won't need it before.

 

[Kennigit]

on the off chance someone will read this (some people are online)

if a scheduled phone interview is late (20+ minutes from the scheduled time), what is an appropriate response? I don't have the email contact of the phone interviewer (I have the name), only contact with the HR.

is a wait for 30 minutes better? or is 20 minutes sufficient? Would it even be worth anything to email the HR representative saying I have not received a call?

I am lucky in that I don't have anywhere to go.

edit: ok just emailed at the 30 minute mark, got a reply back. Things look to be good now.