How to get a job (or not)

[Loppan Torkel]

I applied for a job by e-mail, send a resume and cv, mobile number and address. The next day they call from an anonymous number, I can't take it because I'm at work. They call again today, I still can't take it. They now decide to contact my current employer to get in contact with me. It's the same business and the only reason they'd try to get in touch with me is if I've applied for a job there.

Pretty f stupid in my mind. It is what it is and it won't matter that much, but it's a fairly obvious inconvenience for the employee. Is this kosher from the employer-perspective?

 

[Whomp]

I get half a dozen calls a week from competitors. That said I don't know your industry to know whether that's normal.

 

[Zelig]

I've managed to avoid being assigned a phone at work so everyone is forced to email me.

But in any case my bosses know that I do consulting and various side projects for other people, as does much of my team, so anyone else I'm talking to isn't really indicative of anything.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

@Hobbs: skip the internship. Stick with satellites and graduate as soon as you can.

Thanks for the advice. Work study didn't pan out, it turns out that it was federally funded and this attached strings - I would have to take classes I don't need over the summer to be eligible and could then only work 20 hrs a week - I would lose money on it.

My interview/plant tour went extremely well, to the point that one of the two engineers I toured with told me he was going to request me by name for hiring out of the 5 candidates.

Something he said struck a chord with me:
He said that when they interview candidates for full-time positions, the difference between the average grad with no internship/co-op experience and those with it is night and day.


This alone caused me to rethink whether or not to take the job (I was disinclined previously).


So I ask: how valuable do you all estimate internship or co-op experience to students? How favorably do you compare it to design team experience?

 

[Zelig]

For engineering/software I'd traditionally expect top candidates to skip internships and jump into a regular job with a proper salary and benefits right away, but with the recent tendency of many companies to preferentially hire previous interns, I can't really blame candidates who choose to do internships for being risk averse.

If I'm giving input on hiring, I don't really care if internships are present or not - if I get a candidate of the quality I want, a lack of a six month internship isn't going to move them from "hire" to "no hire". (And the presence of an internship isn't going to move them from "no hire" to "hire".)

In general? *shrug* I'd probably make a decision based on how much fun I thought a particular internship would be.

 

[Kennigit]

Somehow I slipped through the cracks and got a full time job.

I don't have any advice to give to any similarly aged or similarly far along career progression (i.e. entry level for STEM fields) other than be at the right place at the right time.

I don't even consider myself as having done very well in any interview or whatever. Just at the right place at the right time with a company actively hiring.

 

[GoodGame]

I applied for a job by e-mail, send a resume and cv, mobile number and address. The next day they call from an anonymous number, I can't take it because I'm at work. They call again today, I still can't take it. They now decide to contact my current employer to get in contact with me. It's the same business and the only reason they'd try to get in touch with me is if I've applied for a job there.

Pretty f stupid in my mind. It is what it is and it won't matter that much, but it's a fairly obvious inconvenience for the employee. Is this kosher from the employer-perspective?

Don't list your current employer on your resume. Don't give out contact information that you don't want the public to have (listed on resume or in email or by phone).
Of course it's fine to list a recent employer (assuming you aren't working with them and it won't stress your current working relationship). This might not feel up-front and honest, but it protects you in several ways (including against people who just want to use your information for a tax break, or who might even be identity thieves preying on desperately un/underemployed people).

Your initial contact should just be to get the prospective employer interested in you. They can get in touch with you later to interview for a pre-screen interview. Wait until they get you on-site, make you a formal offer, and then have you start a formal application BEFORE you give out sensitive information (like your current employer). The same for stuff like your social security number, age, etc....

You are not obligated, generally, to give out sensitive information until you are about to be hired by them. Sure, with-holding information can be grounds for a quick termination, but you aren't obligated to give it out until right before employment starts.

The better employers will actually ask you which former employers they can contact, but you can't assume they are going to be faithful to your wishes.

 

[GoodGame]

Thanks for the advice. Work study didn't pan out, it turns out that it was federally funded and this attached strings - I would have to take classes I don't need over the summer to be eligible and could then only work 20 hrs a week - I would lose money on it.

....


So I ask: how valuable do you all estimate internship or co-op experience to students? How favorably do you compare it to design team experience?

Work experience is work experience, and relevant work experience should probably help you land a job with higher probability than someone with less relevant work experience. The value of it is usually in the eye of the hiring manager, like Zelig is saying.

Some people think coops are just slave labor that favors the companies. On the other hand, coops can be a more structured work experience than some temporary jobs, and they can sometimes be the only way to getting valuable experiences (which you should put down on your resumes). They are sometimes an easy way to get a good grade.

For applying to jobs that want zero to 1 year's work experience, a relevant coop listed on your resume will probably help.

I wouldn't be dissuaded from taking a coop based on the on-going school credit requirements. It is often easy to get a school to offer you internship credits. If you current school doesn't do that, a prior school might help you out with that, to help you qualify. If the money is significantly better then other seasonal / temp jobs, I would take the coop.

Aikido with a high rank? Maybe. Could show discipline. Competitive chess? Who is the audience? Do you get the sense they want brainy people or tacticians? I actually would be interested to speak with a competitive chess player...that might work on me. The danger is if you do not know who is reviewing your resume you have no idea how that will be received. It's luck of the draw. For instance someone who does not know Aikido or what martial arts are really about might think "oh so this person thinks they're some sort of badass, I don't want violent egotistical people here NEXT." But if you know the person looking at your resume does Aikido, or loves chess, then that's an easy call.

Usually I think the safest advice--again, if you do not know or have reason to know that your activities will be considered relevant or reflect positively--is to put "activities" that bear some relation to the job. E.g., volunteering at some organization that is related, or membership in some organization that is related, that sort of thing, or some sort of college club that is related, or something.

This is good advice. Linked-In might be your friend for researching who the hiring manager might be, and how they might receive 'Akido'.

But I would not be afraid to be honest as long as it honestly is a self-reflection on your fitness for the position. it's very easy to bring up something like Akido on a STAR type question and put it in a positive light to dissuade a potential negative viewpoint. But I'd only bring something like that up if it was honestly a strong component of who I was. Taking Akido might be a reflection of your trying something different, getting focused to learn a new skill etc... But I wouldn't put it just to put something down.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

If you got one job offer that you accept and then within a couple of weeks (before you started working) you got a better offer, is it totally terribad to reject the offer from the first place that you had already accepted?

 

[Harv]

If you got one job offer that you accept and then within a couple of weeks (before you started working) you got a better offer, is it totally terribad to reject the offer from the first place that you had already accepted?

In my opinion, in one word, yes.

Responding to the second offer by saying that you are very sorry, but have already accepted another offer is valid. You may be able to come back to them later, and you have already interviewed with them and they thought highly enough of you that they offered you a job. They should respect you for that. The door is still open.

Telling the first offer that you accepted that you are very sorry, but you got a better offer comes across as terribad form. If the better offer does not work out, then it is very unlikely you could come back to these people.

 

[Commodore]

If you got one job offer that you accept and then within a couple of weeks (before you started working) you got a better offer, is it totally terribad to reject the offer from the first place that you had already accepted?

No I don't think it's bad at all. Sure, the first company is going to be pretty cheesed off at you for screwing them over, but your employment isn't about what's best for them, it's about what's best for you. If the second offer is better, then take it. You shouldn't sell yourself short and turn down a better opportunity just because doing so would make life more difficult for some hiring manager.

I have actually done this several times in my career so far. Of course I'm not dishonest about it though. I always let whomever hired me know that I am always on the look out for a better opportunity and that I could end up working for them for 20 years or I might only be there for a week; it all depends on what other opportunities present themselves. It doesn't seem to have prevented me from getting hired anywhere so far, so it must not be all that bad of a policy.

 

[IglooDame]

If you got one job offer that you accept and then within a couple of weeks (before you started working) you got a better offer, is it totally terribad to reject the offer from the first place that you had already accepted?

If I was the person making the job offer, it'd annoy the crap out of me - we'd have suspended the job search, and already waved off the other candidates, so it'd then require me to get ahold of the runner-up and see if they are still available, and so they'd know off the bat that they were my second choice.

If you think that it is okay that I make you a job offer and then a week later tell you nevermind because a better candidate just walked in and we're taking them instead, then yes it is okay for you to reject that first offer after accepting it.

 

[Hygro]

If I was the person making the job offer, it'd annoy the crap out of me - we'd have suspended the job search, and already waved off the other candidates, so it'd then require me to get ahold of the runner-up and see if they are still available, and so they'd know off the bat that they were my second choice.

If you think that it is okay that I make you a job offer and then a week later tell you nevermind because a better candidate just walked in and we're taking them instead, then yes it is okay for you to reject that first offer after accepting it.

Good points, but the employer employee power balance is not the same so it also totally depends on your market and industry.

 

[IglooDame]

Good points, but the employer employee power balance is not the same so it also totally depends on your market and industry.

True, and it depends on the level of job as well - the job search (and expectations) for a McDonalds regional manager is going to be different from the burger-flippers, too.


And anyway, one could do worse than rescinding an acceptance after two weeks. One of my colleagues had an entry-level tech job where he made the offer, the person accepted, and then simply never showed up for their first day of work. A couple weeks later they did respond to an email saying they'd found a better job. I'm a little surprised they even bothered to do that. My colleague may or may not have found out where the person's new job was and gave that place's manager a call.

 

[Commodore]

And anyway, one could do worse than rescinding an acceptance after two weeks. One of my colleagues had an entry-level tech job where he made the offer, the person accepted, and then simply never showed up for their first day of work. A couple weeks later they did respond to an email saying they'd found a better job. I'm a little surprised they even bothered to do that. My colleague may or may not have found out where the person's new job was and gave that place's manager a call.

Okay what that guy did was kind of jerky, but your colleague was just as childish and unprofessional by trying to sabotage his new job by calling them. So the guy screwed your colleague over? Your colleague should have just gotten over it and found someone else.

I just hate how companies want complete loyalty and commitment from prospective employees, but when the chips are down won't return that loyalty to the employee. I get that a private enterprise is under no obligation to employ anybody, but I feel that should be a two way street as well. If I tell a company that I'm accepting their offer, I should be allowed to rescind my acceptance at any time without negative consequences; just like a company can rescind a job offer before the prospective employee even starts (which has happened to both myself and people I know).

 

[Harv]

It is refreshing to hear an opinion from somebody with an opposite perspective.

As an aside note, as I was going through your quotes, I noticed that I was erasing double spaces after sentences instead of single spaces. This implies that your advice has some years going along with it.

Okay what that guy did was kind of jerky, but your colleague was just as childish and unprofessional by trying to sabotage his new job by calling them.

Agreed.

So the guy screwed your colleague over? Your colleague should have just gotten over it and found someone else.

I think Igloo implied that his (or her) colleague wanted to do what was described and talked about it, but thought it through and did the right thing, which was to get over it and find somebody else.

I just hate how companies want complete loyalty and commitment from prospective employees, but when the chips are down won't return that loyalty to the employee.

Agreed. One week, you are told you are doing great. Next week, you are fired. The days of working 40 years at the same company are in the past.

Years ago, I was given a piece of wisdom that you might like: "Always have your next job in your back pocket."

So by that argument, if Hobbs stays with the first offer, then that job is in the hand and the second (better) offer is in the back pocket. If the first job still turns out to be disappointing, he can still try the second one, or simply look for another one.

 

[Zelig]

It's not good to quit before your start date, but if you're stuck in that situation, it's often the best option.

I mean, they're certainly better off if you quit before starting than if you quit one month into the job - and if you found a better job once, you can presumably do it again, so it becomes a question of "What's the minimum amount of time that's acceptable to work at a sub-par job?"

 

[Commodore]

I mean, they're certainly better off if you quit before starting than if you quit one month into the job - and if you found a better job once, you can presumably do it again, so it becomes a question of "What's the minimum amount of time that's acceptable to work at a sub-par job?"

There is no minimum acceptable period to work any job. You can quit anytime you want. If your employer wants to act like a baby and be mad at you for moving on to something better, that's their problem. As long as you are completely honest about your intentions from the get-go, your employer will find it very difficult to bad-mouth you to other prospective employers.

Like I said, I let a company know in the first interview that if something better comes along there is a good chance that I'll take it. Sometimes that would be the end of the interview right there and other times they still wanted to hire me. The shortest I ever worked a job was one week. I got a better offer, let my manager know, worked the rest of the day and that was it.

 

[Harv]

I mean, they're certainly better off if you quit before starting than if you quit one month into the job - and if you found a better job once, you can presumably do it again, so it becomes a question of "What's the minimum amount of time that's acceptable to work at a sub-par job?"

How would you answer your own question? 6 positions on resume, ranging from 6 months to four and a half years, spanning 16 years and including 5 states or provinces. Last 4 span 14 years. Four years in current position. What impression do you get?

By sub-par, do you mean the pay is less than what you would be expecting, or do you mean the job has absolutely nothing to do with your career?

 

[Zelig]

How would you answer your own question? 6 positions on resume, ranging from 6 months to four and a half years, spanning 16 years and including 5 states or provinces. Last 4 span 14 years. Four years in current position. What impression do you get?

By sub-par, do you mean the pay is less than what you would be expecting, or do you mean the job has absolutely nothing to do with your career?

In my field it's common to see people get relatively short contracts more or less indefinitely, so I've got no real bias for or against length of positions held.

Though if someone lists a dozen jobs in the past five years on their resume, I'm going to question their layout choice - at that point, even if I was nominally a full-time employee of most of those companies, I'd probably restructure to just show myself as a contractor/consultant with those positions as featured projects.

By sub-par I just mean a job that you wouldn't take over the other job if you had both offers at the same time.