How to get a job (or not)

[Hygro]

how about:
"I will build sick rockets that cut costs"

 

[madviking]

i can't really guarantee that much. i'm just a kid who just graduated with just a bs. and i'm not an aerospace engineer either.

 

[Zelig]

"I will fail early and often. (Rather than blowing up spectacularly.)"

 

[Hygro]

i can't really guarantee that much. i'm just a kid who just graduated with just a bs. and i'm not an aerospace engineer either.

Well, either you will, or they will fire you, right? They aren't stuck with you. If you think you can do the job, and the job requires you to be excellent, why say anything short of absolute focus and confidence? Try your best!

"I will fail early and often. (Rather than blowing up spectacularly.)"

That one works well for me.

 

[madviking]

Well, either you will, or they will fire you, right? They aren't stuck with you. If you think you can do the job, and the job requires you to be excellent, why say anything short of absolute focus and confidence? Try your best!

this is what i don't get. if they want absurd statements like the one you provided then why not just turn hiring applications into 'who can say the damnedest thing possible'? my thinking is that if people do that frequently enough then you'll get a bunch of people who are full of bs.

 

[brennan]

What you have to understand is that HR departments are inundated with speculative approaches and actual applications from people with the right qualifications and skills. They have developed quite intellectually lazy techniques over the years to filter candidates, those that pass the filter are the ones who show what HR thinks are the right qualities, such as determination and persistence. Very few people in recruitment seem to have considered that what they are selecting for primarily is good male-cow-excrementers.

 

[madviking]

okay, but where do i but this allegedly great bs? cover letter?

 

[sophie]

okay, but where do i but this allegedly great bs? cover letter?

yes.

Don't worry about overselling yourself. Your concern is getting enough of a foot in the door to get you an interview. If they have any question marks about your abilities they can always check your resume itself/ask you in the interview. The worst they can do is not give you an interview, which...is what they're doing now...

 

[Daw]

i can't really guarantee that much. i'm just a kid who just graduated with just a bs. and i'm not an aerospace engineer either.

Kid, you're not a kid, you're an adult who needs a job. The sooner you stop thinking of yourself as of a kid and start thinking of yourself as of a specialist, the better it will get for you. As a bs, you know more of engineering than me and God knows how many other people. So, just graduated with just a bs. is not what happened. What actually happened is that you graduated with a bs. It's better like that.

Secondly, I do like your attitude. And from what I've seen in your posting I tend to like your personality: you're sincere, stubborn, open, persistent and digging for answers to your questions. You can be pain in the ass, but you've got a promising potential.

I would have hired you if not 3 things:
1. My group does not need expansion.
2. I work in another field.
3. I am on a wrong different continent.

Seems like you've got nothing to loose, why not try Ziggy's approach:

The thing I noticed when I was looking for a job is that personal contact through phone or face to face made all the difference. When you present yourself to your potential future employer he sees you're not afraid to introduce yourself, and he can place a voice/face to the application.

Every interview I got, I got through contacting the company on the phone, or dropping in. I was surprised that many personnel managers were willing to free up some time without having made an appointment

 

[Hygro]

this is what i don't get. if they want absurd statements like the one you provided then why not just turn hiring applications into 'who can say the damnedest thing possible'? my thinking is that if people do that frequently enough then you'll get a bunch of people who are full of bs.

well either you can't do the work and therefore you won't apply for the job, or you can do the work and are in a legitimate position to promise them that you can do what they need. What's the absurd part?

They will look at your resume and decide if you likely meet their qualifications. If it matches what they need, and then you say you can do it, then they might give you a shot. If you say you can do it but your resume doesn't back that idea, they will think you are probably wrong. If you don't say you can do it, but your resume says you can, they will think you don't have the determination or passion to see it through and think you might bail on them.

 

[BvBPL]

I'm a creative, cost-conscious chemical specialist.

Cheap fuel needs rocket scientists; I'm one.

Chemical engineer attentive to the bottom line.

I'm a Lateral-thinking cost reduction scientist.

Excited fuel guy seeks to cut costs.

Need cheap gas? Hire my butt.

BS in chemical engineering seeking to reduce overhead.

 

[Hygro]

that was raw

 

[BvBPL]

Kid, you're not a kid, you're an adult who needs a job. The sooner you stop thinking of yourself as of a kid and start thinking of yourself as of a specialist, the better it will get for you. As a bs, you know more of engineering than me and God knows how many other people. So, just graduated with just a bs. is not what happened. What actually happened is that you graduated with a bs. It's better like that.

Secondly, I do like your attitude. And from what I've seen in your posting I tend to like your personality: you're sincere, stubborn, open, persistent and digging for answers to your questions. You can be pain in the ass, but you've got a promising potential.

I would have hired you if not 3 things:
1. My group does not need expansion.
2. I work in another field.
3. I am on a wrong different continent.

Seems like you've got nothing to loose, why not try Ziggy's approach:

Dear Daw:

Thank you very much for taking the time to meet with me. I understand you have a very busy schedule, and I appericate that you took time out of it to meet with me.

It is unfortunate that you do not have any position that would be a good match for me. However, I hope that you will retain my resume and contact me should that change in the future.

I also encourage you to forward my resume to your associates in the industry who may have positions available for which I would be a good fit. From your email, I can tell I impressed you; rest assured that if you vouch for me with other industry leaders that I will strive to impress them just as much. I understand that if you do choose to forward my resume to others that I will be representing your good name and judgment to those people. Rest assured, this is not a responsibility I take lightly. You can be assured that I will live up to your expectations and the expectations of those to whom you send my resume.

If you are so inclined, I would appericate being able to communicate with you from time to time. I was very impressed by your experience in our industry, and I think I could learn a lot from you even if we are not working together. As with my resume, if you feel you may know someone who be a better mentor fit for me then I ask that you send my contact information to them as well.

Yours,

-BvBPL


Okay, so that was one draft written in five minutes. It does need editing and it is overly broad (one would probably not seek a mentorship arrangement with someone in a different field and different country. It may also be too prideful in some places). Nonetheless, it demonstrates how you can maintain a professional, constructive, and even mutually beneficial relationship with someone who just turned you down for a job.

 

[BvBPL]

that was raw

All of them are better than madviking's freshman effort. They speak to the job, the qualifications, and the needs of the employer. The first one is probably the most universal good one. However "hire my butt" might be the most effective because I know hygro is the hiring manager here and I know that will catch his eye. Whenever possible, and it isn't always possible, target your communications to the particular hiring manager.

 

[madviking]

haha thanks guys

 

[Birdjaguar]

so, uh, how the hell do i get people to want to interview me? i've applied for like 75 positions* over the last four months or so and i haven't heard one bit of positive feedback. it's beginning to make me really bummed out.

*entry level and entryish level chemical engineering-type positions

"Begin with the end in mind."

1. Find a few companies that you would like to work for.
2. Find the people in those companies who are doing the work you would like to do and for which you have entry level qualifications.
3. Contact them and try to arrange a conversation (preferably face to face).
4. Ask for help, advice, to see their lab and find out what it is like to do the work they do.
5. Be interested, curious and excited.
6. Leave them a resume
7. Skip HR.

okay, but where do i but this allegedly great bs? cover letter?

Easy. the letter is in their ad or job description. The bulk of your cover letter is a bulleted list of each of the company's qualifications. Next to each you write how you meet the qualification.

BS in Chemistry: graduated from XXX.edu 2015 with BS in chemistry
Experience with rocket fuel: developed two prototype rocket fuels that tested successful in launching four foot rockets to 1500 feet.
Experience with Vapo Brand analyzer testing: Conducted 6 analytical experiments using that equipment and can set up, tear down and ready the equipment for the next experiment. Can even do minor repairs.

You do this for each of the qualifications listed. If you cannot support one, just leave it out. If you cannot support most of the qualifications, you are not right for the job. Move on.

Then, once you have matched all their qualifications, you add one more section that begins: "In addition to meeting all of the qualification listed above, I also bring the following qualifications.... " your bulleted list should have 2-4 items of significance.

*Three years of quantum chemistry lab work where we .....
*Experience presenting complex data to to other teams working on other aspects of a project.

Dear Daw:

Thank you very much for taking the time to meet with me. I understand you have a very busy schedule, and I appreciate that you took time out of it to meet with me.

It is unfortunate that you do not have any position that would be a good match for me. However, I hope that you will retain my resume and contact me should that change in the future.

I also encourage you to forward my resume to your associates in the industry who may have positions available for which I would be a good fit. From your email, I can tell I impressed you; rest assured that if you vouch for me with other industry leaders that I will strive to impress them just as much. I understand that if you do choose to forward my resume to others that I will be representing your good name and judgment to those people. Rest assured, this is not a responsibility I take lightly. You can be assured that I will live up to your expectations and the expectations of those to whom you send my resume.

If you are so inclined, I would appericate being able to communicate with you from time to time. I was very impressed by your experience in our industry, and I think I could learn a lot from you even if we are not working together. As with my resume, if you feel you may know someone who be a better mentor fit for me then I ask that you send my contact information to them as well.

Yours,

-BvBPL


Okay, so that was one draft written in five minutes. It does need editing and it is overly broad (one would probably not seek a mentorship arrangement with someone in a different field and different country. It may also be too prideful in some places). Nonetheless, it demonstrates how you can maintain a professional, constructive, and even mutually beneficial relationship with someone who just turned you down for a job.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I've found LinkedIn and recruiters to both be pretty useless, and online applications to be black holes. Best is to avoid HR entirely and find people who'd be your direct co-workers to hassle.

I actually agree with you save 2 caveats -

Updating linkedin takes all of 5 minutes and can only help you (if your page is good). I've never had someone cold-call me from my linkedin profile but I have had lots of people who already had my resume look me up.


The other caveat is that is often really hard for new engineers to to contact companies outside of the the HR/Online process.


Mad -

Here's something I did to land an internship once, maybe it would help. I looked up a company I wanted to work for and in particular, looked for a division/group that works on the kind of projects that I have experience with. I dug up scholarly articles and presentations that engineers in that group had posted online, then found their email address (either company directory or, if that fails, a simple John.Doe@Company.com is correct 90% of the time). Then I emailed one of the employees, introduced myself and gave them a brief summary of my experience and how it related to their project. I made the case that I would be a perfect fit for their project and I would love to work on their team.

That got the ball rolling and by the first reply the engineer was asking for my resume. It cut out the online application black hole and HR entirely. Bonus - eventually it was the engineer that was telling his HR person to kick out the offer letter instead of the HR person going to the engineer with my name.

Spoiler spoiled for irony :

My satellite team desperately needs a chemical engineer to research rocket fuels and combustion effects - see the science question thread - but it's an unpaid student position. I'd hire MV in a hot minute if I had a budget. And a real job.

 

[Zelig]

I also think LinkedIn (the company) is pretty scummy, and I run my own personal web page anyway. If anyone googles my name, my web page comes up, which is much nicer than LinkedIn.

And yeah, it can be incredibly difficult to apply outside the HR/online process...

 

[bhavv]

Well for me LinkedIn would be as useless as facebook because there are thousands of people with my full name.

This week I just started some admin work experience for 4 hours on Tuesdays on top of my Saturday retail job. I found it very simple and understood what to do right away - I was basically signing in new donors onto the charity's online system, and also adding on repeated donations from people who were already signed up. Then also sorting out and filing the collection service information for the driver who collects bags of donated clothes (name, address, number, donor number, number of bags to collect with the same number of labels with the customers donor number written on each stapled to it, and then filed under the day the collection needs to be made).

Also 'enveloping?' (putting into envelopes) a new donor package and card to be posted to new donors, and then filing the rest of their details into alphabetical order.

I'm just completely perplexed as to why trying to find an admin job requires me to have previous admin work experience. Its straightforward and simple, and since every company is going to use their own software, you cant really understand what to do without some basic training on how to use each company's software anyway.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Companies are still of the mentality that jobs are scarce and thus they can make unreasonable experience demands of perspective employees. The theory is that there is a ton of unemployed, desperate people who just want work, any work. They are wrong (particularly in the UK and US) but it will take a while for them to realize there is a reason why their openings aren't being filled. I actually just came across a posting where they said NEW GRAD POSITION in the title (their all caps, not mine) and then when I read the job requirements, it said they required 5-10 years experience.

So that's where companies are at with respect to experience requirements in my opinion - off their rockers and stuck in Great Recession mentality.