How to get a job (or not)

[Silurian]

If I was asked to go for a third interview for a short term casual job I would think there was something wrong with the organisation. Will they be a nightmare to work for, does the job actually exist, etc. Having to wait for three weeks for the third interview, compounds the problem, maybe someone has been talking about leaving and you are being kept as a reserve. What happens after the third interview, a fourth!

The unsuccessful people will be your future customers, colleagues, suppliers, boss etc. Some people have a long memory, do you want some clerk delaying the payment of your invoice because you did not send an email telling them thanks but no thanks for the job they applied for with your company.

 

[BvBPL]

Regarding cover letters, you want to use the cover letter to sell yourself and describe why you are an asset to the company. A lot of people write cover letters that say how the job for would be a great opportunity for the applicant. For most jobs, that's not a good way to attract a hiring manager's attention. For the employer, the job posting isn't a opportunity for the applicant but a need for the business.

There also isn't any benefit in using conditional language. Assert yourself as though you are the best hire. When possible, use the active voice.

When possible, tie your skills and the job requirements to the employer's interests.

So use

I will use my five years of customer service experience to enhance the company's engagement with its clients.

Rather than

I hope to use this opportunity as a means to further develop my five years of customer service experience.

Both of those convey that you have five years of customer service experience, but the former show how you will use that for the benefit of the employer.

Think of your cover letter as a chance to boast about what you can do for the company. Boast, but don't be dishonest. Getting a job is about selling yourself and your cover letter is your first chance to do so.

Your cover letter is also a great chance to show off your non-employment attributes. If your personal values coincide well with the employer's values then this is where you can show that off (particularly useful for non-profits and public sector positions). If you have a lot of public speaking experience with, say, Toastmasters but not with previous employers then mention Toastmasters in your letter, presuming public speaking is an asset for the position.

Cover letters are also a good way to mention references, mentors, and the like, presuming those references are relevant to the job. I would probably limit the use of these to one strong and relevant reference, preferably a party that may be known to the hiring manager.

 

[Flying Pig]

On emphasising your enthusiasm - the point of that is to suggest to the employer that you're not going to jump ship, either passing the interview only to go off and accept another job that you actually wanted more, or to find a better job once you're in role. It also suggests that you're going to be motivated and productive on the job, above and beyond working for a pay packet.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I am not an employer so all of my answers are from the prospective of an employee.

Several questions arising out of this:

• How long is too long to ask applicants to wait following an interview before a decision is made, particularly considering that we're only talking about a casual position for a student here, and the wait was over the Christmas/summer holiday period?
  
  Two weeks is a about as long as I would consider reasonable. To me, the the amount of time you make someone wait to get an offer should be no longer than the amount of time you give them to accept an offer once made. It's unreasonable in my opinion to make someone wait a month to be given an offer and then give them a week to decide or negotiate the offer. And even if you were to give someone a month to mull over the offer (hypothetically), you shouldn't make them wait more than two weeks to be given the offer in the first place.
  
  What your boss did regarding the holidays is in my mind a clear indication of lack of forethought and consideration for the potential hires.
  
  
• Is it unreasonable or rude to ask someone to come in to the office for a third interview, when the purpose of that interview could've easily been covered in the other two visits? At what point does it become unreasonable?
  
  I agree with BJ. For interns or 'casual' hires, a third interview is a bit much. Now for a longer term, permanent hire, I don't think 3 interviews is too much so long as one of them involves a facilities trip. If you make someone call in 3 times or interview them 3 times in person without showing them the facility and introducing co-workers then you are just wasting everyone's time. Of course, my thoughts are tilted by my line of work where you would expect to tour the manufacturing or design facility you work out. For lawyers it is obviously different but nevertheless, a third interview should involve face-to-face time with potential co-workers.
  
  
• What reply or message, if any, do you think should be sent to a) people who didn't secure an interview, and b) people who were interviewed, but were unsuccessful?
  
  "Thanks but we went in another direction" (email) for the former case and a follow up call or detailed email for the latter. In either case, you should always send some sort of notification that the potential employee will not be hired. It's very frequent in my profession for no notice to be given even to people who interviewed for a job and did a plant trip. I don't know why it is so common but it's extremely unprofessional and it actually puts potential hires in a dilemma when they have to figure out if they will be moving or have to make alternative class arrangements (for an internship job), etc.
  
  It's bad enough that I've known of several people who vowed never to apply to work at certain companies ever again after having an interview and not hearing anything back at all. That directly hurts the company as it cuts into the number of potential future applicants - applicants who already nearly made the grade.
  
  
• The reasoning for not calling on the successful applicant's references was that it seemed highly unlikely that they'd be telling us anything useful. What value do you think referees have for the employer?

In my opinion the references are useless. A potential employee will only volunteer a reference from someone who will vouch positively for them. It's also unreasonable to expect to contact a current employer given an employee may be trying to job-hop.

I guess you could try and require someone to list past (not-current) employers as referral but really, if you learn anything bad about an employee from a reference then you failed to make a good judgement call on the employee to begin with. That's just my opinion and I do understand the CYA aspect that BJ brought up.[/I]

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks for the cover letter advice everyone, duly noted!

 

[Camikaze]

Thanks for the answers, I suspected as much. At least the three week wait was mitigated a bit by letting the candidates know that it was going to happen.

I suppose the value of calling referees depends on the job and candidates, too. There's less of a need to ring them to cover yourself when the business owner is in complete control of the hiring process. The candidates we get tend to have quite a wide variety of experience, none of which is really necessary; educational background is most relevant. If you were hiring e.g. a manager and wanted to know about their managerial experience, then I can certainly see the value of calling up referees, but I'm not really sure what you'd ask the owner of a local restaurant in relation to an entry-level office job, that wouldn't already be reasonably answered by an assessment of the candidate's personality through an interview.

Just an additional note, I found it interesting that we weren't really after the candidate with the most impressive CV - some people were too impressive for my boss' liking. I think it was largely because they exuded a personality which wasn't the most compatible with a small firm in a city of big firms. It seemed like some of the candidates had attended too many employment seminars conducted by big firms, and in applying for this job, it did them no favours. My boss didn't want someone who was looking to join a cult, or who would jump ship after a year. Similarly, a fair few cover letters were obviously tailored to the industry rather than the firm itself, which left a similar impression. It wasn't particularly impressive when a candidate e.g. praised our reputation, because there's no way any of the candidates would know what our reputation is - we're almost unresearchable. I actually don't think BvBPL's advice above would've worked all that well for applicants to this position - a measure of humility demonstrating an understanding of the role and its entry-level nature was more worthwhile than unrestrained confidence (so the successful candidate in their cover letter mentioned something specific that they couldn't do, which indicated that they understood the role they were applying for, and how they could develop through it). I do think BvBPL's advice would work well for a lot of other firms. But it depends on what you can grasp of their specific culture.

 

[BvBPL]

I suppose the value of calling referees depends on the job and candidates, too.

The importance of mentioning a reference in a cover letter is dependent on the relevance of the reference. For example, I put in for a job performing a function in education law. My education law professor is now an administrative law judge for the education review board. Her reference may be relevant to the job. Referencing, say, my torts professor or previous supervisors where I did mental health litigation are less relevant. Those latter sources of reference are still valuable when asked for references, but I would not put them in the cover letter itself.

I actually don't think BvBPL's advice above would've worked all that well for applicants to this position - a measure of humility demonstrating an understanding of the role and its entry-level nature was more worthwhile than unrestrained confidence (so the successful candidate in their cover letter mentioned something specific that they couldn't do, which indicated that they understood the role they were applying for, and how they could develop through it). I do think BvBPL's advice would work well for a lot of other firms. But it depends on what you can grasp of their specific culture.

Well there are absolutely jobs where it is appropriate for the applicant to highlight his or her growth potential. For internships, trainee positions, and positions where one is expected to grow into a subsequent role that phrasing is highly appropriate. However, I think generally an applicant is better served by highlighting how he or she can better serve the company than how the company can serve the applicant.

One of the benefits of highlighting these opportunities to help the company is that it enables the applicant to tie his or her past experience to the current position. This is very valuable for those that are changing industries rather than looking for an advancement in one's current industry. Where one has ten years experience in another profession and is now looking to change gears, the cover letter is a great place to introduce how the skills developed in one's past professional work. This can be very helpful.

I'm curious, Camikaze, how your employer would treat an applicant who was able to perform research on your firm. A few years back I worked for a firm that had a very limited online presence. This made it nearly impossible to research the firm via the internet. However, it was possible to research it through other means. That sort of research paid off for me in that case.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well there are absolutely jobs where it is appropriate for the applicant to highlight his or her growth potential. For internships, trainee positions, and positions where one is expected to grow into a subsequent role that phrasing is highly appropriate. However, I think generally an applicant is better served by highlighting how he or she can better serve the company than how the company can serve the applicant.

One of the benefits of highlighting these opportunities to help the company is that it enables the applicant to tie his or her past experience to the current position. This is very valuable for those that are changing industries rather than looking for an advancement in one's current industry.

Exactly right. The company is hiring because they have unfilled needs. The better you show that you an meet those needs, the more likely it is that you will be hired.

 

[BvBPL]

If you need a bit if confidence in your job search, keep in mind that a company who is advertising open positions really has a need, a need it cannot fulfill with its current staff. The company wants to hire someone, hopefully you.

 

[Camikaze]

My firm is a litigation firm, so could be searched through a case law database, as reported cases list the solicitors acting. I performed that research before my interview, but it didn't tell me much that I didn't already know - I had a friend working there and they recommended me. Google won't tell an applicant anything other than our address, which it misleadingly links to a different firm in a different industry with a similar name. LinkedIn or Facebook could provide some leads or people to talk to, but honestly that'd be overdoing it for this sort of job, and my boss really wouldn't care - he's more concerned about a compatible personality, strong work ethic, and some basic administrative skills. Anything more than basic research would probably be wasted effort, and basic research isn't going to yield much information.

To clarify re cover letter, the phrasing was something along the lines of "I understand I can't offer you x at this stage, but I can do y." As the role they were applying for required y, and did not require x, but would probably lead to x, that showed they had a greater understanding of the job and where it might lead than someone who just mentioned their excellence in y. We advertise very selectively amongst a demographic known for their overconfidence and brashness (law students from the top couple of universities), so an understanding of limitations is a great indicator on the personality front, but would not be for a lot of the big corporates, where that particular mentality is often prized.

 

[Zelig]

If you need a bit if confidence in your job search, keep in mind that a company who is advertising open positions really has a need, a need it cannot fulfill with its current staff. The company wants to hire someone, hopefully you.

Unless they're just posting to meet union or HR rules for promoting someone from within. Or they're just posting to meet government requirements for hiring foreign workers. Or they're just posting to build up resumes for market research. Or they're technically hiring, but doing so by just leaving up postings permanently and making requirements high enough to only hire people to match their turnover rate.

 

[dutchfire]

"We've got budget for another employee, and if we don't use the budget they will take it away and make the rest of us work harder."

 

[hobbsyoyo]

True Story

Edit:

Or better yet, they allow you to apply via your linkedin profile, which you do, then find out that linkedin has filled in every single text box incorrectly.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I had a job interview last Wednesday, at the company where I did my senior design project.

It is for an entry level civil site engineer position, although a miscommunication with the women who scheduled the interview led me to think it would be with their highway engineering division. I like actual position better, but much of my interview prep work was in the wrong area.

I don't think I did very well on a couple of the earlier questions, but think I did a little better later on once it was my turn to ask the questions.

There were two interviewers, the man who is in charge of the whole office and a woman with whom I would be working most closely. The woman had to leave early for another meeting, so she was not there in the part where I felt I was doing best. She seemed shy and did not ask many questions, but I got the sense she was more favorable to me than he was did during the first half of the interview.

The boss said that the company has been looking for 6 months, had already interviewed 2 dozen applicants, and has half a dozen more interviews scheduled. He said they are in not in a big hurry to fill the position, as they have several more months before the guy they borrowed from another department really needs to go back, and want to make sure they get the right person for the job. Most of the candidates have more experience than me, but most have not shown much advancement in their careers so he considers their experience to be the same first year over again. I don't yet have any experience outside of school, but at least can show some advancement with my Habitat volunteering.

He said that he cared most about making sure that his team's personality types were compatible. He seemed somewhat excited when I brought up MBTI types and identified myself as an INTP. Those four letters are the only note he made on my resume. He said he is an ENTJ and has the Meyers-Briggs types of all his employees on file, and although he could not remember them offhand he knew that most were introverted rationals or at least intuitive, with just a few extraverts mixed in to help get things started. He seemed pleased when I said I grew up with an INTJ father, INFP mother, and INFJ sister.

(The woman at the interview seemed like a strong INFJ to me. She reminded me a lot of a good friend from the church I attended during college. There was not much physical resemblance,but their facial expressions and general bearing were identical. I ended up having romantic feelings for that friend and was rejected when I asked her out during my senior year, but it was a very gentle rejection that did not make our next interactions feel awkward at all. I think we would get along quite well.)

(I'm pretty sure he said she was a PE, but her LinkedIn profile says EIT. It also reveals that she is 3 years younger than me, or at least graduated high school 3 years later as valedictorian.)

I mentioned some things from the boss's LinkedIn profile which I had read ahead of time. We spoke a bit about that experience but he said he that he does not use any social media, an employee made the profile for him years ago, that he never logged in personally, and that he forgot the password. I meant to transition from that to exchanging business cards or discussing how I should contact them in the future, but got sidetracked.

I realized on the drive home that I knew of no way to send the thank you note that I have read is recommended after interviews.

This weekend I used LinkedIn to say thanks to a guy in that office whom I'd met at an ASCE meeting and who offered to act as a referral for this position. I asked him to thank them for me, as I didn't have their contact info. He replied and said he would, and also gave me their company email addresses.

Do I need to write them thank you notes now? What do I need to say. It seems kind of awkward coming more than a week late. Some sites say that an email thank you is too little anyway and recommend mailing handwritten cards, but I don't know where to send those.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Hand written thank you notes are important. You have been to their building I suppose, so deliver the card in person to the office. the company does have an address doesn't it.

As to content, thank them for their time and interest in you. Tell them that you left the interview knowing more about their company and that you feel that you would make a great fit and that you know you have the skills to do the work. Tell them you would like to work there and look forward to hearing from them soon. Send similar but not identical notes to each of the people you met with.

Since they are big into Meyers Brigs, re-mention your INTP and how it fits with their profiles.

Get on it now and good luck.

 

[Cheetah]

What?!

Thank you notes??

Are you guys serious? You are. Why have I never ever heard of this anywhere before? Is that common? Surely it can't be. Is it a very local US thing? Are other people doing this? Have I gone around doing it wrong all this time??

 

[Camikaze]

I thought thank you emails were usually expected, so I can see the theoretical appeal of a hand-written note to set you apart. Though I'm not sure displaying my handwriting to someone would ever increase my chances of being employed.

 

[Zelig]

What?!

Thank you notes??

Are you guys serious? You are. Why have I never ever heard of this anywhere before? Is that common? Surely it can't be. Is it a very local US thing? Are other people doing this? Have I gone around doing it wrong all this time??

I typically don't bother if I'm applying for jobs.

If I'm hiring, I find them mildly annoying unless they have something of actual value that was missed in the interview. (e.g. "I found your product xyz very interesting and would love to discuss it further, especially regarding processes abc.")

If they're paper format, I find them really annoying, because paper is awful.

 

[Birdjaguar]

What?!

Thank you notes??

Are you guys serious? You are. Why have I never ever heard of this anywhere before? Is that common? Surely it can't be. Is it a very local US thing? Are other people doing this? Have I gone around doing it wrong all this time??

I thought thank you emails were usually expected, so I can see the theoretical appeal of a hand-written note to set you apart. Though I'm not sure displaying my handwriting to someone would ever increase my chances of being employed.

I typically don't bother if I'm applying for jobs.

If I'm hiring, I find them mildly annoying unless they have something of actual value that was missed in the interview. (e.g. "I found your product xyz very interesting and would love to discuss it further, especially regarding processes abc.")

If they're paper format, I find them really annoying, because paper is awful.

My excuse is that I am old [school]. If a company has interviewed you in person and if after the interview you still want the job, it just makes sense to me that taking the less common approach and making the effort to actually write a note of thanks to tell them you do want the job, is a smart move. It gives the interviewer one more contact point with you. In addition, by arriving via snail mail in a non business envelope it is likely to be seen as an important item that will be opened by the recipient and not discarded out of hand. You get one more chance to make your case that you are they guy for the job.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Could really use some advice -

I was contacted by a company I applied to work for and they had me fill out a questionnaire. One of the questions was my expected salary and I essentially punted and said something along the lines of 'I expect industry-standard compensation for X job'.

They liked my questionnaire and sent me an 'official' application to fill out that moves me further in their hiring process. This time they specifically said in the email they attached to the app to that I must fill in a dollar amount.

I want to punt again as putting down an expected salary before even having an interview puts me at a huge disadvantage. It can handicap me in future salary negotiations (at best) or price me out of a job entirely (at worst).

How do I handle this? I shot back an immediate email informing them I will fill out the applications but am hesitant to fill in my expected compensation for the reasons listed above. What if they outright demand I put in a $ amount to move forward in the process?

Edit: As I typed this, they got back to me and said that it was fine if I didn't put in a dollar amount at this time. Even still, for future reference, how should I handle this if they require me to put down a $ amount before I even interview?