How to get a job (or not)

[BvBPL]

Companies also routinely overstate their requirements as well. Do they actually need 5-10 years experience? This makes it difficult to suss out what they actually are looking for.

 

[bhavv]

But the jobs do get filled in the UK and they have hundreds of applicants per job (can see the number of applicants on the top job websites).

As can be expected, its mostly due to people moving from one job to another. So yes there's loads of people with the advertised requirements, and there's next to zero chance for unemployed / unemployment gap people to find anything more than a shelve stacking or burger flipping job.

And then when I get such a job, the job agency has the nerve to try and hype it up to be absolutely amazing and 'Wow, I bet you're happy you got a job' ...

IM STACKING SHELVES WHEN IM NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIFTING / CARRYING / PUSHING / PULLING DUE TO MY HEALTH CONDITION, AND IM ONLY STACKING SHELVES BECAUSE OTHERWISE I HAVE NO CHANCE OF GETTING A JOB I CAN DO SAT DOWN.

I don't get it. Recruitment agency working as part of a government scheme to get disabled people back into work. All that ever comes up with them is stacking shelves or warehouse work. If people are capable of doing that full time (which I cant, I was dead after two times), they shouldn't have been put on benefits in the first place.

 

[Synobun]

IM STACKING SHELVES WHEN IM NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIFTING / CARRYING / PUSHING / PULLING DUE TO MY HEALTH CONDITION, AND IM ONLY STACKING SHELVES BECAUSE OTHERWISE I HAVE NO CHANCE OF GETTING A JOB I CAN DO SAT DOWN.

I don't get it. Recruitment agency working as part of a government scheme to get disabled people back into work. All that ever comes up with them is stacking shelves or warehouse work. If people are capable of doing that full time (which I cant, I was dead after two times), they shouldn't have been put on benefits in the first place.

It's important to remember that although disability is a blanket term in the government, it's split into three categories: physical, mental, and a combination of the two.

I'd hazard a guess that this recruitment agency leans towards servicing the second category and only helps those in the first category if they have specialized skills (and thus fit into a narrow range of occupations through skill rather than restriction).

 

[brennan]

Under the Work Programme 'Hardest to help' groups of the unemployed were those whose eventual employment was highest paid under the DWP contract. Hardest to help groups still got sidelined. Results of the project after 5 years: 30% of people who had been on the programme (2 years each) had gained sustained employment (6 months off JSA).

I was delivering courses under the 'Gateway to Work' scheme back in 2009-2010, we beat a 30% job entry rate with a 2 week course and a 3 month follow up period. The new government decided that sort of intervention was too expensive.

Jobseekers with various disabilities are getting absolutely shafted in the UK.

 

[BvBPL]

So I've completed round one of application for my dream job and been invited to round two. This round involves me submitting essays detailing my personal managerial and leadership experiences.

Now I have been in managerial roles in the past, but not lately in my current industry. That said, there are examples of managerial and leadership tasks from my work in other industries that I can draw from for these essays.

In writing these essays, am I likely better served by detailing things that have happened recently that may not showcase my full mamagerial experience; or should I draw from events that are directly applicable to management, but occurred ten or so years in the past?

For what it is worth, this is something of a change in industry, although it and my current profession are closely linked.

I am leaning towards using examples from my past managerial experience. However. Because my current work is seen as a significant benefit for the job I am applying, I am concerned that by not emphasizing my current work I may be doing myself a disservice.

Basically in my managerial role I supervised a small customer service office. That was really a sort of introduction to management. However, in my present role, I am a skilled professional, but not a manager. For the job I am applying, would be a professional manager (amount other tasks). I'm uncertain which experience to emphasize.

 

[sophie]

Maybe start your essay with your older experience and then describe how those experiences helped/informed/(changed? improved?) in your newer less formally managerial positions?

 

[BvBPL]

The essays seem to want me to focus on one specific event and are limited in the number of words I can write. I'm not sure I have the space to enact that excellent suggestion, Owen.

 

[Zelig]

I usually emphasize that managers are not above the professionals in the hierarchy, they're just there to manage away distractions and to provide the best tools available to the professionals doing their jobs - like professional athletes and their team managers.

Some "managers" aren't fans, but I wouldn't want to work with them anyway.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The essays seem to want me to focus on one specific event and are limited in the number of words I can write. I'm not sure I have the space to enact that excellent suggestion, Owen.

I think firms that are looking to hire managers are looking for experience managing, period, rather than looking specifically for someone who has managed projects in their field. Sure it's a bonus when a candidate has actually managed in the field, but in general I think that firms just want 'managerial' people (for lack of a better word) that are proven leaders rather than having a specific set of experiences.

So any essay you come up with about your management background will give you a solid boost.


As for actually writing your essays, take multiple draft-passes over your essays and keep hacking away at them (word count) until you can't take away anything else without losing the whole point of the story you are trying to tell.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So I've completed round one of application for my dream job and been invited to round two. This round involves me submitting essays detailing my personal managerial and leadership experiences.

Now I have been in managerial roles in the past, but not lately in my current industry. That said, there are examples of managerial and leadership tasks from my work in other industries that I can draw from for these essays.

In writing these essays, am I likely better served by detailing things that have happened recently that may not showcase my full mamagerial experience; or should I draw from events that are directly applicable to management, but occurred ten or so years in the past?

For what it is worth, this is something of a change in industry, although it and my current profession are closely linked.

I am leaning towards using examples from my past managerial experience. However. Because my current work is seen as a significant benefit for the job I am applying, I am concerned that by not emphasizing my current work I may be doing myself a disservice.

Basically in my managerial role I supervised a small customer service office. That was really a sort of introduction to management. However, in my present role, I am a skilled professional, but not a manager. For the job I am applying, would be a professional manager (amount other tasks). I'm uncertain which experience to emphasize.

A good way to demonstrate expertise is to build from the various details of a situation and then extrapolate important concepts and principles to the general. That is, show that your specific experiences as a customer service manager in the past are the foundation of your new more generalized skill set that will enable you to apply those principles to your new job. Talk briefly about the how you handled leadership, morale, team building, cooperation, poor work ethic, conflicts etc. in your customer service job and then go into how what you learned there will apply to your new role. You want your essay to convey that you are smart enough to solve specific leadership problems in Job A and apply those learned principles in ways that will fit Job B which is distinctly different than Job A.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[BvBPL]

Cover letters.

One page, 12pt font, double spaced, pdf format.

Right?

 

[Zkribbler]

[oh wait, I'm not sure of something I originally said...so, never mind]

 

[Zelig]

Cover letters.

One page, 12pt font, double spaced, pdf format.

Right?

I don't like doublespacing, I find it's too much whitespace with most fonts, and I prefer to style my paragraphs with doublespaces rather than indentations. My current cover letter is 11pt Palatino Linotype, 1.15 spacing.

I think more space is fine, but I'd look at 1.15 or 1.5 depending on font and size, rather than a full 2.0.

I'm a bit of a typography weenie though, I've also made sure to use correct em or en dashes in my resume.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Cover letters.

One page, 12pt font, double spaced, pdf format.

Right?

Single spaced, in standard business format. The font size can depend upon the font used. Just make it simple and easy to read. .pdf is fine. If you use a word doc, then it might be possible for the recipient to open it and hit the undo button and see things you don't want them to see.

Calibiri or Footlight MT light are nice simple fonts.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Any advice on the content of a cover letter? How much should I talk about myself/personal story versus my qualifications for the job?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Use the cover letter to match your skills and experience to those advertised. Do it line by line.

Your recent posting calls for:
A degree in biology. I graduated from Harvard with a BS degree in Biology.
Four years of laboratory experience. I have 2 years lab experience at Big Pharma developing drugs with dangerous side effects and another 5 years at Glaxo working on testing bacteria for their resistance to antibiotics.

Short sweet and direct.

Other items can be included, but the letter's primary job is to get you interview based on fit with the ad requirements.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Oh ok. I thought it was more about introducing yourself as a person. I have an interesting personal story/background that gets attention with recruiters so I used that for 2/3 of the cover letter and the last 1/3 was me matching my skills to job requirements.

I'll have to re-write it. Ugh, I've never had to make one of these before but one (and only one) company requires it.

Thanks!

 

[Birdjaguar]

Such personal stories could be included, if they are relevant to the position you are applying for. Mostly, they should be a minor section of the letter and after they are already sold on you because of the excellent matching of requirements.

Cover letters are a pain, but they are the key to getting an interview. Your resume is just history; the letter is your sales pitch. It makes all of your history relevant to the job. If you can show a strong match on 80% of the job requirements, it is difficult for anyone not to interview you.

I learned the technique back in the 1990s from a book whose name I do not remember. The author called this method "drag them face down through the cactus". "You say this is what you want, well I'm your guy."

 

[Camikaze]

At my work, we have been hiring recently. It's only a small firm, with two full-timers and a rotation of casuals (such as me), and we were filling another casual position for a student. We received a sufficient number of applications before Christmas, and had asked a number of people to come in for interviews. Some of them we asked back again, and then we culled it down to two.

My boss can be a bit disorganised, though, and wanted to meet these last two candidates personally; he'd been out of the office or with a client the other times. By this stage is was the second last day before the Christmas holiday. So we called up the two candidates and asked them to come in for a third time. One of them couldn't make it in before the Christmas holiday, so we told them that we'd have to delay making a decision until the office re-opened three weeks later. We had let all the other interviewed applicants know that they weren't getting the job. We didn't respond to the applications of those who didn't get an interview (e.g. people who couldn't spell or who had clearly copied & pasted into a cover letter template and not bothered to align the formatting).

When we did get back, one of the candidates told us they were no longer interested. Over the holiday we'd received more applications, so we interviewed a couple more people. Right before we were going to make a decision, the second pre-Christmas candidate called us up and said they were dropping out of contention. The successful candidate ended up being a post-Christmas applicant who was only interviewed once, and whose references we didn't check.

Several questions arising out of this:

• How long is too long to ask applicants to wait following an interview before a decision is made, particularly considering that we're only talking about a casual position for a student here, and the wait was over the Christmas/summer holiday period?
• Is it unreasonable or rude to ask someone to come in to the office for a third interview, when the purpose of that interview could've easily been covered in the other two visits? At what point does it become unreasonable?
• What reply or message, if any, do you think should be sent to a) people who didn't secure an interview, and b) people who were interviewed, but were unsuccessful?
• The reasoning for not calling on the successful applicant's references was that it seemed highly unlikely that they'd be telling us anything useful. What value do you think referees have for the employer?

 

[Birdjaguar]

At my work, we have been hiring recently. It's only a small firm, with two full-timers and a rotation of casuals (such as me), and we were filling another casual position for a student. We received a sufficient number of applications before Christmas, and had asked a number of people to come in for interviews. Some of them we asked back again, and then we culled it down to two.

My boss can be a bit disorganised, though, and wanted to meet these last two candidates personally; he'd been out of the office or with a client the other times. By this stage is was the second last day before the Christmas holiday. So we called up the two candidates and asked them to come in for a third time. One of them couldn't make it in before the Christmas holiday, so we told them that we'd have to delay making a decision until the office re-opened three weeks later. We had let all the other interviewed applicants know that they weren't getting the job. We didn't respond to the applications of those who didn't get an interview (e.g. people who couldn't spell or who had clearly copied & pasted into a cover letter template and not bothered to align the formatting).

When we did get back, one of the candidates told us they were no longer interested. Over the holiday we'd received more applications, so we interviewed a couple more people. Right before we were going to make a decision, the second pre-Christmas candidate called us up and said they were dropping out of contention. The successful candidate ended up being a post-Christmas applicant who was only interviewed once, and whose references we didn't check.

Several questions arising out of this:

• How long is too long to ask applicants to wait following an interview before a decision is made, particularly considering that we're only talking about a casual position for a student here, and the wait was over the Christmas/summer holiday period?
• Is it unreasonable or rude to ask someone to come in to the office for a third interview, when the purpose of that interview could've easily been covered in the other two visits? At what point does it become unreasonable?
  
• What reply or message, if any, do you think should be sent to a) people who didn't secure an interview, and b) people who were interviewed, but were unsuccessful?
  
• The reasoning for not calling on the successful applicant's references was that it seemed highly unlikely that they'd be telling us anything useful. What value do you think referees have for the employer?

• How long is too long to ask applicants to wait following an interview before a decision is made, particularly considering that we're only talking about a casual position for a student here, and the wait was over the Christmas/summer holiday period?
  
  That depends upon how organized and serious you want your company to appear. WE always try to group our interviews at the end of the process and try to schedule them within a day or two of each other. That way we usually can tell candidates that we will let them know within a week. Casual or not you shouldn't come across as uncaring or disorganized. I would say either finish before the holiday or wait until after to begin the process.
  
• Is it unreasonable or rude to ask someone to come in to the office for a third interview, when the purpose of that interview could've easily been covered in the other two visits? At what point does it become unreasonable?
  
  This depend upon the position. For high level, well paid positions three interviews are fine as long as they are not all with the same people. For a low wage casual job, it seems too much. Long processes for low positions make you look unorganized.
  
• What reply or message, if any, do you think should be sent to a) people who didn't secure an interview, and b) people who were interviewed, but were unsuccessful?
  
  I always tell every applicant that they didn't get the job. I email that message. If I interviewed someone, they get a phone call. For those not interviewed, say that the position has been filled. Thank them for their interest and wish them luck in their job search. For the interviewees you say the same thing, but you can tell them neutral things about why the "winner" got the job. They had more experience. They had a skill set that better matched the job. You don't say negatives about the candidate you are talking to.
  
• The reasoning for not calling on the successful applicant's references was that it seemed highly unlikely that they'd be telling us anything useful. What value do you think referees have for the employer?

References should be called after interviews and prior to making an offer. They are the chance to see if any red flags go up from past employers. this is the time for careful questions, probing questions and listening for ambivalent answers. They also provide CYA if the candidate down't work out. Not having called references makes you appear to be lacking in proper due diligence. Calling them protects you from not calling them and getting blamed for a bad hire.