How to get a job (or not)

[Kennigit]

The market advantage for the applicant is 0 for people 0-20 years in their career

That's the way life is

 

[BvBPL]

They asked for my salary and I told them what I was looking for based on US West Coast salary ranges. I made it clear that 1) I have no idea the USD/NZD exchange rate or cost of living** and 2) that I was highly motivated to work for less than my target number for the right company and that their company is the right company.

This is exactly the sort of research that you, as an applicant, needs to do before it comes to the salary negotiation phase. $100k US might be $150k NZ, but that doesn't take into account the average wage for the same job in NZ, the differences in the cost of living, and the like. Determining what you can take in compensation in your responsibility, passing off the burden to the employer isn't a good idea. Even if you are not asked about your expected compensation, it is a good idea to spend some time researching and examining your compensation needs.

Because you may be asked to justify your salary demand, the difference in relative value of the dollars is still helpful. If you are interview with a company in another nation than you know that they are very interested in your skills because they can't find a local employee that fits their needs. That means they should likely be willing to pay a premium for your labor. When they say "why do you need $150k?" you can explain your determination based on the relative value of the currencies. Of course if you are asking for $150k based on what you could attract in California and they are paying an average of $75k in New Zealand then you probably can't overcome that issue.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This is exactly the sort of research that you, as an applicant, needs to do before it comes to the salary negotiation phase. $100k US might be $150k NZ, but that doesn't take into account the average wage for the same job in NZ, the differences in the cost of living, and the like. Determining what you can take in compensation in your responsibility, passing off the burden to the employer isn't a good idea. Even if you are not asked about your expected compensation, it is a good idea to spend some time researching and examining your compensation needs.

Because you may be asked to justify your salary demand, the difference in relative value of the dollars is still helpful. If you are interview with a company in another nation than you know that they are very interested in your skills because they can't find a local employee that fits their needs. That means they should likely be willing to pay a premium for your labor. When they say "why do you need $150k?" you can explain your determination based on the relative value of the currencies. Of course if you are asking for $150k based on what you could attract in California and they are paying an average of $75k in New Zealand then you probably can't overcome that issue.

Yeah I learned my lesson with that one. Few things to note in my favor though -

This was a preliminary interview and based on previous interviews, I did not expect this to come up at all.

There are no other rocket companies in NZ and this one is very new so there simply isn't data to compare it to. All I had to go on was US salaries. Hell, there isn't even an aerospace industry there to make broad comparisons with, much less rocketry.

This start up company is having a hard time recruiting people because there are no aero degree programs in NZ so I guess they do expect to pay a premium. However, I heavily suspect that they are taking a page from another famous rocket company startup and paying lower salaries and giving out company stock as a way to offset that. If my suspicion is correct, this makes estimating a fair wage even harder than it should be (which is already hard given the above).

But like I said, I learned from the experience and won't make the mistake of being unprepared again.

 

[BvBPL]

I'm curious if they offered or discussed an ownership interest in the company (stock) during the compensation discussion.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

They didn't, it was totally one-sided. They wanted me to give them a number but didn't offer up any information of their own. I could have (and should have) asked more questions but we got sidetracked in a longish discussion about exchange rate and cost of living. They did say that they would send me a packet they have explaining exchange rates and COL in NZ along with the test they wanted me to take but it never came.

Everything about stock compensation is pure speculation on my part but it's not wild/uneducated speculation either.

 

[BvBPL]

Attached are general compensation negotiation tips from a graduate school's career office.

Spoiler :

Requests for Salary Requirements in Your Cover Letter Some prospective employers require job applicants to include salary requirements in their cover letters. This can be troublesome because you are, in effect, being put in a position to negotiate against yourself. However, if you do not include this information in your correspondence you will likely be eliminated from the applicant pool, especially if there are many other similarly qualified applicants as is often the case. Accordingly, if you choose to apply to an employer that requests your salary requirements up front, be sure that the figure at least covers your reasonable cost of living expenses. Furthermore, it is often difficult to know what the specific benefits will be at any given job. As a result, I strongly suggest giving a salary range as opposed to just one number. This provides you some flexibility and signals to the employer that you are willing to negotiate. A suggestion is to state: Based on the current market, my prior work experience, and educational background, I believe that a compensation package that includes a base salary in the range of $____ to $____, as well as standard healthcare and retirement benefits, is reasonable; I am open to discussing this further with you and am eager to learn more about the position. Salary Considerations Although you do not want to appear that you are only concerned about money, you nevertheless need to be savvy about salary negotiations. For example, benefits can vary among employers and should be factored in when considering a salary offer. Benefits ought to be considered as “hidden” salary, and as such you should attempt to calculate the cost of benefits offered as if you had to pay for them out of pocket. As a result, in determining what a reasonable salary is, you need to consider several factors including: ● type of job






● location of the job ● type of employer





●size of the organization ● retirement plan contributions



● year-end and performance bonuses
● weekly hours required and flexibility of schedule
● payment of annual bar dues and seminars ● commuting expenses (or savings if you can work
●medical and dental benefits
from home)

Salary Calculators Online salary calculators also provide an estimate of the salary for a given job, taking into account location. Although these estimates provide a general sense of the market, they do not account for different types and sizes of employers, and other factors. Nevertheless, you can use these figures along with other information you gather to make an informed ‘guestimate’ of a reasonable salary for the specific position that you are considering. ● http://www.salary.com/





●http://www.glassdoor.com ●http://www.payscale.com





●http://www.cbsalary.com/
●http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl
●http://www.vault.com

Starting Salary Negotiations As a recent graduate, you may want to consider starting off at a lower salary than you would otherwise in order to get your career off the ground. Accepting a lower salary might be worthwhile if the experience gained will catapult you toward the job and pay scale you really want. This is especially true if your employer will act as a mentor to you or otherwise take an active role in your career development. In this situation, it may be wise to negotiate a six-month performance
review at which point your employer would reevaluate you and, assuming you have performed exceptionally well, give you a merit-based raise. This is a good incentive for you to work hard and also reduces the risk that your employer must assume in hiring you. Small and midsize firms are more likely to offer flexibility in terms of starting salaries, raises and advancement. Ask about the employer’s compensation progression over time. Discussing Salary in the Interview and Offer Stages Prior to your interview, research salaries for the type of position and the geographic location in which you are located. Be prepared to explain the basis for the salary range you are seeking, using your market research and being prepared to provide specific examples. Take every chance to demonstrate to the employer what skills you would bring to the organization. The ideal time to negotiate a salary is after you have received the offer but before you have accepted it.

Sorry for any poor formatting of the above. I just uct and pasted it.

Incidentally, requesting a six month review during the interview seems like a pretty smart idea.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks, that's a great article, I appreciate it.

haha I have to point out that with a lot of job application websites, you literally cannot enter in a salary range or anything but a straight up number. All non-numeric text entries in the field will return an error as will leaving the field blank. I've had that happen a few times and finally started entering a big fat 0 to pass the error-checks but not tip my hand.

 

[rah]

Starting Salary Negotiations As a recent graduate, you may want to consider starting off at a lower salary than you would otherwise in order to get your career off the ground.

Unless you plan leaving the company, NEVER accept a lower salary offer just to get in the door.
(unless you have no qualifications and no experience)
You will pay for it your entire time there.

 

[BvBPL]

The school in question services a profession w/ generally more mobility between jobs than most industries, particularly for those w/ fewer years in the industry. The profession was also much more affected by the economic down turn then most, and it is hard for new professionals in the industry to find jobs. So I don't think it is invalid for the profession being serviced by the school.

Your complaint is well stated for the general population though.

 

[rah]

Yeah, you're correct. Most of my hires were IT hires. 20 years ago there was 1 applicant for every 5 jobs, right after the tech crash it was 20 applicants for every job. And now it's swinging back in the other direction where there are fewer applicants. As a result I have to offer more and take more time to find the right people. IT goes in cycles.

 

[Birdjaguar]

When you ask about benefits, don't forget to ask what portion the company pays. A rich health care plan is very nice, but it is less nice if the company only pays 25% of the premium.

 

[Zelig]

When you ask about benefits, don't forget to ask what portion the company pays. A rich health care plan is very nice, but it is less nice if the company only pays 25% of the premium.

For any company of substantial size, I wouldn't take a position where the company was paying actual insurance premiums. If they want to use an insurance company as an administrator, that's fine, but I expect the company to pay out all of the health benefits directly to me.

 

[rah]

Be happy that you have the option to consider all the details. It wasn't so long ago that anything that wasn't flipping burgers was a great job and grabbed at whatever cost.

 

[ls612]

Be happy that you have the option to consider all the details. It wasn't so long ago that anything that wasn't flipping burgers was a great job and grabbed at whatever cost.

Hah! I get the hyperbole there but that is sort of how I'm feeling looking for a software engineering position. After almost 5 months of applying and interviewing with no good offer desperation starts to set in. I have to wonder just how bad the market has become since I got my software engineering internship.

 

[BvBPL]

Question on using head hunters / recruiting firms. I'm considering using a recruiting firm to find my next job.

Should I contact multiple recruiting firms or limit my contact w/ a few firms? I've been told by recruiters that working with multiple firms can work against you b/c potential employers are likely to throw out resumes that have been received by multiple recruiters.

Any additional general tips on working with recruiters would be welcome as well.

Reposting the inquiry above so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle

 

[rah]

I've been told by recruiters that working with multiple firms can work against you b/c potential employers are likely to throw out resumes that have been received by multiple recruiters.

Of course recruiters will tell you that because they don't want you going to other recruiters. I'd look at it the other way, it gives the employer twice the chance to see it. (I have never tossed out both if I found a duplicate).

There is good and bad.
Pro. they may have existing contracts with companies and be the first option for them when they are hiring.
IF they are specialty recruiters, some employers may seek them out.

Cons. They don't care if the job is an exact fit for you. They don't have to go to interviews that you don't have a chance at. THey'll send you to everything and hope eventually you'll get an offer. They can waste your time because it doesn't cost them anything.
Also some companies don't like paying the fee so they won't use them. Especially now with the growth of on-line sites where their costs are minimal.

When I was younger and in between jobs I used one once. The only offer they ever got me was to work for them as a head hunter. They sent me on many interviews that were a waste of my time and I finally said screw them.

But I have never been looking when the market was really bad so if you have exhausted every other means, trying one isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I spoke briefly at today's ASCE meeting to the man who had referred me for the position for which I interviewed 3 weeks ago. He said that he believes their company has already decided to offer the job to a different applicant, but that their offer has not yet been accepted. If their first choice guy declines the position, there is still some chance they might extend the offer to me.

What is my next step? Do I just move on to applying elsewhere, or do I need to follow up with the manager somehow? If so, what should I say?

 

[BvBPL]

@MC Have you already sent a thank you note for the prior interview? If not, this is a good time. If you have, a phone call to the hiring manager is okay after two weeks of not hearing anything official. I wouldn't tip your hand that they may be looking at another candidate, instead present it as a follow up on your interview.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Reposting the inquiry above so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle

Question on using head hunters / recruiting firms. I'm considering using a recruiting firm to find my next job.

Should I contact multiple recruiting firms or limit my contact w/ a few firms? I've been told by recruiters that working with multiple firms can work against you b/c potential employers are likely to throw out resumes that have been received by multiple recruiters.

Any additional general tips on working with recruiters would be welcome as well.

I think it depends on the level o job you are seeking. If you are seeking a senior management position in high profile regional or national firm stick to a single firm. If you are looking for a high level position in more localized firms, then you might use regional head hunters and have different ones in different regions. I think you want your name to only be brought forth at a company by a single firm. It makes you perhaps more special and seems less like spamming your resume about.

The higher the position you are seeking the exclusive you want your availability to be.

 

[nc-1701]

To weigh in on the salary figure question... Isn't it, psychologically speaking, advantageous to put the first number out? And shouldn't you have a solid idea of what salary you want? So giving desired salary+5-10% seems reasonable to me...

Anecdote time:
After I graduated a year and a half ago I was pretty careless and got flown out for an interview with a company did basically no research on. It was far away and I didn't really want to live there so I just went for the experience.
So anyway at the end they asked me what I was expecting salary wise, I did my best to refuse but they said they at least needed some idea of my minimum. So I said that I wouldn't consider anything less than 50k. The HR lady kind of laughed and said "we pay more than that."
About a month later I got a call and they offered me the job with a 68k starting salary I accepted... Then about 10 minutes later she called back and said she had mixed my offer up with somebody else's and the offer was actually for 73k and hopefully I would be okay with that one instead?
I still work there, but I guess negotiating doesn't always matter?