How to get a job (or not)

[Lohrenswald]

If you're say 1 year not in education or employment, how much does it screw you over in terms of getting a job later?

 

[Silurian]

It depends what you do with your time and how much they want you.

If you have to wait to repeat a year ask if you can attend some related classes. Or maybe get a low paid job in your field if you are not qualified enough.

If not get a job fliping burgers or travel to Spain or Greece and get a job for the summer before you go back to college.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I mean your advice is good, but it doesn't really answer the hypothetical

 

[really]

How competitive is the market?
It all depends.

 

[Silurian]

The longer you unemployed the harder it is to get a job.

Employers think there is something wrong with you.
So if you do not have an explanation you will be marked down.
Flipping burgers whilst applying for a long term job would be better than sitting at home as you are demonstrating you can hold down a job.

If you are sat at home with nothing but rejection letter you also get depressed and can lose skills.

How much a year not working would affect getting a job would depend on the job. The better the job the more negatively it would be. If the job was in sales and you were depressed from not having a job it would be harder to get the job.

 

[rah]

Always state that you need the interview to verify/validate the actual job responsibilities/required skills. before you could assign a value to it.

Or you can do the other favorite and ask what the salary range for the position is?

 

[Hygro]

@hobbsyoyo Can you glassdoor your position and put the median down?

 

[ls612]

Man getting a job can be harder than you would think. I'm graduating with a CS degree this spring and I had an internship last summer with glowing performance reviews, and I still haven't gotten more than one really bad offer.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

@hobbsyoyo Can you glassdoor your position and put the median down?

Yeah I can but that really handicaps my bargaining position as it effectively puts a roof on what I can ask for. I can always go back and fight for more but they can just as easily say, 'this is what you want and we gave it to you' or even 'we gave you a little bit more than you asked for' and it's hard to negotiate from that position.

In the end they let me punt again. I guess I'm wondering if anyone thinks that in a similar situation in the future if the company absolutely requires me to put my expected salary up front if it would cost me a potential job if I don't play ball? Because honestly, even if they didn't relent I still probably wouldn't have put a number down. I just don't know how risky that is.

Always state that you need the interview to verify/validate the actual job responsibilities/required skills. before you could assign a value to it.

Or you can do the other favorite and ask what the salary range for the position is?

To your first part, that's essentially what I did. Different verbage, same net effect. I think I wrote I expect salary in-line with industry standard for someone of my experience in that role.

I didn't think to ask that but I did consult the almighty Googs and got the answer to that but I didn't mention this to them. The numbers were a bit low to be honest and I didn't want to open that door just yet. I think saying 'in line with industry' gives me wiggle room to negotiate later. Does anyone think they would volunteer salary info like that if I had asked?


______________________________

For the record, I am convinced that I have priced myself out of a different job in the past so I'm not eager to repeat that mistake. It's bloody stupid of them to ask this question upfront, they just count on the candidates to be gullible enough to answer (and I was once) and either cross them off the list right away or use the number the candidate offers to strengthen their own negotiating position.

The instance I think I priced myself out of a job was for a company based in New Zealand. I disclosed a lot of details I don't normally in an interview (like the fact that I'm married, etc) solely because both sides needed to know those kinds of things due to immigration logistics. They asked for my salary and I told them what I was looking for based on US West Coast salary ranges. I made it clear that 1) I have no idea the USD/NZD exchange rate or cost of living** and 2) that I was highly motivated to work for less than my target number for the right company and that their company is the right company.

So I stupidly told them both how much I wanted and that I would also happily take less. I think though they passed because my number, on reflection, is probably a lot more than they were willing to pay in addition to the cost of getting me and wife a visa. The interview went great and they said they would send me a test to do to move forward but never did. I even contacted them and they said the test was still coming but it never did. The only thing I can think of that went wrong is they looked at my salary number (absent the caveats I put in there) and said, "hahaha nope, pass".

** To be fair, I've had lots of interviews and even a few that led to job offers but salary has never come up until the offer was made. And this was a preliminary interview so I really wasn't expecting it and didn't think to research the exchange rate and cost of living. Still it was a goof up on my part and I won't make that mistake again.

 

[rah]

I've hired over a hundred people so I have a bit of experience here.

While I like having the number when negotiating (because it gives me an edge) I have never REQUIRED IT. Actually I always held it against the person if they caved right away and gave me a number. (it tells me that they will suck as a negotiator which is important in any but the lowest positions. ) And it tells me that they don't have the confidence to stand up for themselves.

And As you stated, it's a lose lose when you give it.
Even if you high ball it and they accept it, it means you probably could have gotten more.

Money negotiations are best done face to face when you can judge body language and get a sense of the desperation of the person hiring.

And I'd be willing to bet that any job you lose because you refused to state a number probably is not the best one you could get. Unless you have such a low opinion of yourself that you would settle for the first offer.

Always refuse until you're face to face.
And then always start the conversation with I was looking to get xxxxx but would accept yyy (based on quickly reading their reaction to your first number) You have to judge it quickly to make it sound sincere. After that, it's just negotiation.

Remember, almost every position requires some skill in negotiating and by successfully doing it over your salary demonstrates that you have that skill.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks for the inputs. I was hoping that they would respect me for refusing to give a number and pointing out to them it would be a dumb move on my part to do that. But I had no evidence to support that hope.

I didn't negotiate my previous internship offers because those are non-negotiable (they say as much up front) and I've only had one full time offer. I did negotiate that one and got them to come up by $3k but even then they were well below my minimum to accept so instead of wasting time trying to squeeze more blood from the stone, I thanked them and walked. There was just no way they were going to pay me what I required to be paid to work that job (because I didn't want it very much to begin with). I tried to get them there but the gulf was too wide.

Their first offer was below market rate to begin with, which was almost insulting and when they raised it by $3k, they were only going up to barely market rate and not what I thought I deserved given my experience.


I don't think I'll get to do face to face negotiations in my field. The jobs are very widely space apart geographically so they almost always have to fly in a person to do a final interview but they never make offers until well after the interview when they've consulted with the team that you will be working in. So the offer comes in over the phone/online which kind of sucks but that's the way it is done.

Or you just don't hear anything back from them, which is almost standard in my industry when a company passes on you.

 

[Zelig]

Money negotiations are best done face to face when you can judge body language and get a sense of the desperation of the person hiring.

Agreed with your post otherwise, but I much prefer salary negotiations via email - it means every one of my points is well-researched and factually supported, and gives me time to properly price out the value of every part of my compensation package.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Agreed with your post otherwise, but I much prefer salary negotiations via email - it means every one of my points is well-researched and factually supported, and gives me time to properly price out the value of every part of my compensation package.

I take this point and that's exactly what I did for my full-time job negotiation. I put in links and facts and statistics in a really well-thought out email.

It didn't help me much, but that's why I didn't accept the offer. I spelled it out to them and they dicked me around so I walked.

 

[BvBPL]

Question on using head hunters / recruiting firms. I'm considering using a recruiting firm to find my next job.

Should I contact multiple recruiting firms or limit my contact w/ a few firms? I've been told by recruiters that working with multiple firms can work against you b/c potential employers are likely to throw out resumes that have been received by multiple recruiters.

Any additional general tips on working with recruiters would be welcome as well.

...how should I handle this if they require me to put down a $ amount before I even interview?

If you don't have any other ideas, the average compensation for workers with a comparative level of skill in your industry and in your region plus ten percent is a decent starting place. Be prepared to negotiate. The US Dept. of Labor has good information on regional salaries. I'm sure similar resources exist in most nations as well.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So you're saying I should put down a number and not risk being passed on the job? I have in the past (and still do)** research compensation for the jobs I apply for. But I'm not cool with tipping my hand in any way until an offer has actually been made. Do you think a company would likely pass on me if I flatly refuse after they insist?

**Except that one time

 

[BvBPL]

If you're say 1 year not in education or employment, how much does it screw you over in terms of getting a job later?

It can be a significant problem. As others have said, many employers will assume there is a problem w/ you if you have been out of work for an extended period of time.

If there is a reasonable reason why you have been out of work, due to health or family issues for example, then cite that when asked about it. I wouldn't put it on the resume.

If you just can't find work, you can fill out the resume by doing a bit of volunteer or gig work. Saying you've been volunteering for a year is much more compelling than saying you've been looking for a job for a year.

 

[Kennigit]

If you say your answer depends on benefits available and list any comparable figure you have no one will bat an eye

Tbh once you clear HR you should be able to at 1 year with a company get whatever compensation you think you ought to be getting

Any competent manager who appreciates your results will be able to get whatever formalities in the system, eg go from "engineer I" to "engineer II" or whatever bins things get set in

Most companies do have bins anyways so there actually isnt much negotiation possible in the first place, HR is just using this stuff to filter out candidates asking for too much when they already know that it doesnt matter who gets the job, the pay is predetermined +/- a few thousand. For an engineer looking for 1-2 years of meaningful employment then like 3k is chump change to the company, only the HR applicant filter cares for made up reasons

Payed time off accrual, 401k match, hsa match, relocation are generally all unknown when you apply


Inflate O1 officer pay and the cost of living house allowance using military pay calculator if you care, that is reasonable for BS aero engineering

If you are flatly dropping 70k HR might be scared

 

[BvBPL]

So you're saying I should put down a number and not risk being passed on the job? I have in the past (and still do)** research compensation for the jobs I apply for. But I'm not cool with tipping my hand in any way until an offer has actually been made. Do you think a company would likely pass on me if I flatly refuse after they insist?

**Except that one time

Probably. Many employers need to ensure that all of the is are doted and the ts are crossed before reviewing an application. Placing a non-conforming datum in a field is an easy way to give the potential employer an excuse to put your resume in the no pile early on.

That said, it will depend on the employer. If you can't tell how important it is to specify your salary then I would err on the side of caution and include it.

 

[rah]

Negotiating is a skill and quite desirable. While I prefer face to face (mainly because I'm quite experienced so I tend to do better), others may prefer the safety of reviewing everything over and over. Whatever makes you more comfortable. And of course as some have stated, it is sometimes not an option.

And always remember, the starting salary is ALWAYS important (to those that think it's best to take any offer figuring that once they're in they can improve it from there). Almost every future increase(annual merit) or promotional raise will be calculated as a percentage of your salary. Any increase in the starting salary will snowball down the road. Smaller companies may deal with this in dollars but most large companies deal in percentages.

The old adage of 10% of nothing is nothing while 5% of something is something has always been one of my favorites.

In one company that I worked for HR handled all the negotiating based on their strict rules. They informed me that a candidate that I approved (and was my top candidate) had turned down the low ball offer they had made. I went over their heads and was authorized to make a higher offer that was accepted after I personally called the person and made the offer. I eventually decided that I would prefer to work for a company that treated applicants more fairly.
But of course it depends on the market. In good times the applicants have leverage and in bad times I always had the advantage. One must read all the signs.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks guys for all the inputs.

Yeah, I'm very cognizant of how important starting salary is, which is why I'm sweating the little details like this.