[RD] How would you define a democracy?

I agree that in practice you never really have an independent judiciary, it's nearly impossible. Separation of power is mostly a fantasy, in reality it's blurry lines. It's simply what I was taught made the modern democracy, as opposed to the greek idea of democracy for example. We've come a long way and have described vastly different systems under this umbrella term.

I've been curious whether the system where judges are elected among a qualified candidates pool might be better. The dysfunctions in the US where that system exists (in some states only?) leave me reluctant to consider it seriously. But I do like the idea of jury trials, for some kind of democratic participation on judicial decisions. It's impractical for, say, constitutional matters, but those can be handled democratically with a referendum once in a while. By the way, why is Germany still so averse to referendums? I mean, the real reason, not some tale of historical fear. Are they considered dangerous given the federal nature of the state?
 
By the way, why is Germany still so averse to referendums? I mean, the real reason, not some tale of historical fear. Are they considered dangerous given the federal nature of the state?

no idea, honestly :D
 
I like Popper's definition: democracy is where your leaders can be removed without violence and tyranny is where they can't. That's even useful for defining oligarchic/rent-seeking regimes in which the elected officials are figureheads, since the real leadership are the private-sector plutocrats.
 
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I would rank political systems on the sliding scale of democracy based on these criteria:
1. Free voting - how freely people can vote without being influenced and what fraction of the people are allowed to vote in the first place
2. Freedom of proposals: How much ability people have to influence who or what is on the ballot
3. Fair counting: Every vote should count the same towards the intent of the voter
4. Transparent counting: How well people can verify the results
5. Implementation: How well the result of votes are adhered to.
6. Freedom to change their minds: Whether results are challenged enough with subsequent votes

Of course no democracy fulfills all of these perfectly, but a complete failure regarding any of these points would disqualify a political system from being a democracy.
 
I like Popper's definition: democracy is where your leaders can be removed without violence and tyranny is where they can't. That's even useful for defining oligarchic/rent-seeking regimes in which the elected officials are figureheads, since the real leadership are the private-sector plutocrats.

great definition except for the further need to define who constitute the leadership
 
I believe the point is that you don't need to do that.
 
how oligarchic does a regime has to be to not count as a democracy

Why do you assume that some kind of strict demarcation between democracies and non-democracies has to exist?

'cause leftists would argue no capitalistic society can ever be democratic

The general common understanding of democracy is that it refers to the regime, which is separate from the market. If you want to define democracy in more local or personal terms, I'd say that you could define capitalist societies as mixed regimes but what we would call democracy by those standards would be psychotic mob rule (even if, let us say, a genie magically made it impossible to remove leaders through violence, it still wouldn't be an ideal place to live).
 
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Why do you assume that some kind of strict demarcation between democracies and non-democracies has to exist?

the assumption is kinda baked into the definition, isn't it? "democracy is where your leaders can be removed without violence" versus (say) "a more democratic society tends to remove leaders without violence"

The general common understanding of democracy is that it refers to the regime, which is separate from the market.

see, that is expressedly not the understanding of democracy on the left. I'll grant that it's not a common viewpoint among the lay public, but then again, very arguably neither is Popper's.
 
It's a worst definition, except all the others that have been offered.

No, it’s just the lowest common denominator and that is why it is useful. It’s the yes\no-question that allows us to start. Every other factor that has been named in this thread depicts the “Quality of Democracy” and these can be contradictory. There can be different types of democracy focusing on different things. A lot of elections gives more powers to the voters, but means perpetual campaigning and can lead to volatility. The ability to implement changes fast runs counter to checks and balances of any kind. Deliberations allow more influence to those who have time (retirees versus young mums).

No, there is no best democracy, so all the stuff about free and fair elections and freedom of speech is nice, but situational. I wouldn’t pull of points from Germany as their freedom of speech-law doesn’t allow “Nazi-Stuff”. But any comparison inevitably runs into this problem. What is the “best” Democracy? I don’t know. But I know many democracies right now lack inclusive elements as has been mentioned so far as the “understanding of Democracy on the left”. More fairness is the way to go, but it doesn’t mean such uninclusive regimes are undemocratic.

Democracy is also not confined to the political sphere and national politics. Think about your Family, your Workplace, School or your friends. You did have situations where you voted on stuff. That is democracy as well. The political sphere needs to dock onto this experiences and not just be a “ just tick these boxes every four years”-kind of thing.

And a little last point out of logical order: Separation of Powers as the core factor for Democracies doesn’t work: You can have a state with a king as the executive, Barons as the legislative and ecclestical law as the juidicative - that wouldn’t make it a Democracy. To be fair this is also true for my “peaceful transition of power” argument - they are all necessary, but not sufficient conditions.
 
No, it’s just the lowest common denominator and that is why it is useful. It’s the yes\no-question that allows us to start. Every other factor that has been named in this thread depicts the “Quality of Democracy” and these can be contradictory. There can be different types of democracy focusing on different things. A lot of elections gives more powers to the voters, but means perpetual campaigning and can lead to volatility. The ability to implement changes fast runs counter to checks and balances of any kind. Deliberations allow more influence to those who have time (retirees versus young mums).

No, there is no best democracy, so all the stuff about free and fair elections and freedom of speech is nice, but situational. I wouldn’t pull of points from Germany as their freedom of speech-law doesn’t allow “Nazi-Stuff”. But any comparison inevitably runs into this problem. What is the “best” Democracy? I don’t know. But I know many democracies right now lack inclusive elements as has been mentioned so far as the “understanding of Democracy on the left”. More fairness is the way to go, but it doesn’t mean such uninclusive regimes are undemocratic.

Democracy is also not confined to the political sphere and national politics. Think about your Family, your Workplace, School or your friends. You did have situations where you voted on stuff. That is democracy as well. The political sphere needs to dock onto this experiences and not just be a “ just tick these boxes every four years”-kind of thing.

And a little last point out of logical order: Separation of Powers as the core factor for Democracies doesn’t work: You can have a state with a king as the executive, Barons as the legislative and ecclestical law as the juidicative - that wouldn’t make it a Democracy. To be fair this is also true for my “peaceful transition of power” argument - they are all necessary, but not sufficient conditions.

yes


Democracy is also not confined to the political sphere and national politics. Think about your Family, your Workplace, School or your friends. You did have situations where you voted on stuff. That is democracy as well. The political sphere needs to dock onto this experiences and not just be a “ just tick these boxes every four years”-kind of thing.

This is what I feel is especially important
Just ticking every 4-5 year boxes is a consumerist interface with the politics part of democracy.

Ordinary simple volunteer activities are for me the base of participative democracy.
The amount of hours of volunteer activities in regions a measure of how much "total democracy" there is.

Starting with the humble road:

You can be member of a volleybalclub and train and play competition.
You can also take your turn of being a referee (each team on average needs after all to supply a referee to the club, to the competion)(and yes you need the courses and time to get schooled as qualified referee). And if being referee is not your thing, you can become the guy taking care the all volleyballs are pumped up all the time to the right pressure and all that stuff.

You can be a parent of children at a primary school.
You can also be one of the parents who goes to school between 12.00 and 13.00 to luncch together with those children who cannot go home for lunch because both parents work. And yes grandparents or people without a job or partially disabled can join in as well.
Nothing fancy. Not in the boards of clubs, the "management" and "politician" level. Just doing your bit.

etc, etc.
And yes... there is always influence attached to activities.
And if the general yearly member meeting decides with nose counting "democracy" crazy things... volunteers will vote with their feet.

"The strongest shoulders should bear the heaviest weights"
And talents you have, whatever they are... is there not some innerly urge to also grant them to the people around you ?

Democracy is a fabric.
 
Democracy, as is known, comes from Demos & Kratos.
In the original Greek, Demos sounds exactly the same as Deimos, the personification of terror.
Kratos... was always the personification of excessive use of force.
 
1. Free voting - how freely people can vote without being influenced

People are always influenced. Best protection against undue influence is freedom of press and a secret ballot.

By the way the latter is being undermined in the UK by the practice of people photographing
their ballot papers in the UK voting booths to prove to others that they have voted the correct way.
 
Democracy, as is known, comes from Demos & Kratos.
In the original Greek, Demos sounds exactly the same as Deimos, the personification of terror.
Kratos... was always the personification of excessive use of force.

So the definition of Democracy according to its etymological origin is:

"The Excessive Force of Terror"

Mmmm... elaborate maybe?
 
That would be the Tarkin Doctrine, but no, Kyriakos is pulling your leg. The demos were the common people of a district or region in ancient Greece, hence demotic meaning popular or common and demography being the scientific study of people or populations.
 
That would be the Tarkin Doctrine, but no, Kyriakos is pulling your leg. The demos were the common people of a district or region in ancient Greece, hence demotic meaning popular or common and demography being the scientific study of people or populations.

Yea the thing that I learned from elementary school the etymological origin of the word are Demos and Kratos, which the literal translation of the etymology means People's State. But I thought he want to make an allegory from his previous metaphor, which I think is interesting, in what perspective Democracy can be seen as "Excessive Use of Terror Force", a nice platform to start a horror story where something that we thought "For the People" is actually "Terrorized the People". :D
 
Democracy, as is known, comes from Demos & Kratos.
In the original Greek, Demos sounds exactly the same as Deimos, the personification of terror.
Kratos... was always the personification of excessive use of force.

Etymology is a nice science, it however does not really have anything to do with how a term is used in the present. It's an easy and overused entry into a discussion into definitions, but the next sentence then usually starts with "However...".

So you making an etymological quip here is especially unhelpful unless you just want to remind everyone that the term is of Greek origin. Sorry, I just despite that rhetoric strategy of etymology.

This is what I feel is especially important
Spoiler shortened :
Just ticking every 4-5 year boxes is a consumerist interface with the politics part of democracy.

Ordinary simple volunteer activities are for me the base of participative democracy.
The amount of hours of volunteer activities in regions a measure of how much "total democracy" there is.

Starting with the humble road:

You can be member of a volleybalclub and train and play competition.
You can also take your turn of being a referee (each team on average needs after all to supply a referee to the club, to the competion)(and yes you need the courses and time to get schooled as qualified referee). And if being referee is not your thing, you can become the guy taking care the all volleyballs are pumped up all the time to the right pressure and all that stuff.

You can be a parent of children at a primary school.
You can also be one of the parents who goes to school between 12.00 and 13.00 to luncch together with those children who cannot go home for lunch because both parents work. And yes grandparents or people without a job or partially disabled can join in as well.
Nothing fancy. Not in the boards of clubs, the "management" and "politician" level. Just doing your bit.

etc, etc.
And yes... there is always influence attached to activities.
And if the general yearly member meeting decides with nose counting "democracy" crazy things... volunteers will vote with their feet.

"The strongest shoulders should bear the heaviest weights"
And talents you have, whatever they are... is there not some innerly urge to also grant them to the people around you ?


Democracy is a fabric.

Thank you a lot. In essence I work in participative processes which is why I am as interested in the definition of Democracy.

To be fair though, even though people will vote with their feet (or in the political sphere, any extra-institutional activity such as economy or demonstrations), you do need the "yearly member meetings" with their formal procedures. They create reliability and predictability which are the scaffolding of Democracy. But only a scaffolding is empty without stage decorations and people on the stage which is where all of the above quoted comes in.

I fear my take is here not cynical enough for the other posters here :)
 
@mitsho , it was a joke. Obviously Deimos merely sounds like Demos; they mean two entirely different things. And Kratos mythologically did personify excessive force, but in the term Democracy just connotes where the power lies (with the public instead of oligarchs or aristocrats, a king or usurper).

Besides, what is your quip with being reminded of one's origins? Not all of us have to choose between the helveti and the germans, a rock and a granite :p
 
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