Importance of white representation in fiction

We've got our racial issues here as well, but it's not the same as in your country. The point is that Shakespeare didn't make it a division between races.
I know. I forgot to respond to this point in your earlier post. I'm aware that in Shakespeare's version, the original, seminal version, there wasn't necessarily any racial/ethnic differentiation between the Capulets and the Montagues, mentioned. But on that note, there wasn't necessarily any mention of one side wearing orange and the other gray. My point is that in some subsequent versions, West Side Story, Romeo + Juliet, Romeo Must Die, etc., the distinction between the factions is displayed in terms of race/ethnicity, and I enjoyed that method of showing the division. I'm aware that in terms of personal taste, you tend to dislike these kind of deviations from the source material, but for me they worked very well. However, I'm not so sure about this claim:
He made it a division between classes of people of the same ethnicity.
I'm not so sure about this. The opening line of the play is literally,
Two households, both alike in dignity, In fair Verona, where we lay our scene
So Shakespeare is setting the stage right from the start that the houses are basically the same in terms of class/ standing/ wealth etc., and their feud is about something else. In Romeo + Juliet this is demonstrated very nicely by showing basically identical twin skyscrapers next to each other, with only the family name and logo to distinguish them. I don't think the play actually ever addresses what the feud is really about, and I think that is the point. That the hatred between them is so old that nobody even really remembers why or who "started it", they all just have their own anecdotal, vicious-cycle reasons for disliking the other house. Essentially, they're enemies, because they've always been enemies.

I don't think the original play contains any support for the notion that the Capulets were somehow higher class. Shakespeare states explicitly that they are the same class. So its even more the case that using their race/ethnicity to distinguish them is just as beleivable an interpretation as having them wear different color clothes. In some ways its more believable, at least to me. I'll read the rest of your post now, but this bit jumped out at me.
 
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In some ways its more believable, at least to me.
But not in 16th C Verona. The use of skin color, though, is just as reasonable as clothing color for a modern adaptation since in all other ways the two houses are equal.
 
Sorry, guns aren't something about which I notice much detail. I remember the ones we used as props when I worked in the theatre, and am very thankful that someone who actually knew what they were doing regarding safety, etc. was in charge of the gun we used in West Side Story. As for the switchblades, those are illegal in Canada so it's not like we could buy or borrow any. The ones we used were hand-made by one of the tech guys, and he was constantly telling the actors not to play with them between scenes, because they weren't easy to fix if they broke. Again, I was glad not to have to deal with those.
I'm pretty sure they are illegal here too, those and butterfly knives, and nunchaku. They were still pretty common where I grew up and I've had some myself when I was younger, although I haven't seen any of them in decades, so I guess they're lost. Not that I have any use for such things nowadays. I've spray-painted water-guns to use as props for plays. At a distance they look just fine onstage. I've done a lot of stage acting, but I can't remember ever having to actually wield a sword onstage.
Simmer down... our opinions differ as to his physical attractiveness. That's allowed.
No ITS NOT!:mad:... :p :lol: ;)
I never said he's not good-looking. I just said he doesn't meet my criteria for male beauty. I also never said I didn't care for him as an actor. I just don't like him in specific roles - for more than one reason. He's either too young, too modern, not able to bring all the nuances the role calls for, I prefer the older version of the movie, and quite honestly there are historical-era movies where American accents just grate on my ears.
OK, If you are at least admitting he is good-looking I can go back down to DEFCON 4 :p. For my part I think he just nails it every time, in every role, but of course that's a taste thing. FWIW, I like Canadian accents. We have a regional accent in the US that you hear mostly in people from Minnesota and Wisconsin that to my ears sounds similar to some Canadian accents, but I guess that makes sense.
I've seen Man in the Iron Mask. I've seen Titanic. I've given my reasons for not liking him in the first one. Titanic is historical in the sense that it's an attempt to show what happened. But the fact is that Jack Dawson was not a real historical figure.
So now I'm confused again. When you say "historical figures", you're strictly limiting that to actual real life people, then am I understanding that correctly now? If that is correct then you have the technically real life King Louis and man in the iron mask prisoner, both played in an absolutely fictional way. There's also the absolutely real Howard Hughes portrayed in a semi-biographical, true-to-life'ish way. Then there's Jordan Belfort in Wolf of Wall Street and Frank Abagnale in Catch Me if You Can. Offhand, I can't think of any other times he's played real life people. Now as I've said, his Phillipe was good but not his best role, while his King Louis was better, but neither role was as good as so many of the others he's had. But his Howard Hughes was inspired and those last two roles he absolutely should have gotten Oscars for.
I've seen it a few times, and yes, I've sniffled and cried when Rose realizes that Jack has frozen to death in the water. But I'm not someone who saw the movie dozens of times in the theatre (I've seen it on TV maybe about 3 times? Possibly 4?).
I saw it in the theatre a few times when it came out. I thought it was a fantastic film. Like you I admired the epic scale of it and it was certainly an emotionally touching film. The theme song is stirring, even without Celine Dione.
 
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If you don’t think it’s important to have white people in fiction...
Then non white content creators better step up their game. They have some catching up to do. Replacing white stories with non white actors will only get you so far. But with the millennials, we are seeing just that. It will take a while though.
 
Literally all I did was point out that one poster said "X" & a subsequent poster responded as if the original poster had implied he said "not X". You appear to be either reading waaay too much into my posts or confusing me with another poster.

The problem with vague, critical generalisations that don't actually engage with the topic constructively is that more people than you perhaps would like will respond to them. This is why being clear, and actually responding to specific arguments specific posters made, is generally a good way to go. I'm not reading into anything too much, no. I'm specifically objecting to the way you chose to insert yourself, and how you made a complete non-argument whilst doing so.
I literally responded to a post which mischaracterized another person's words right above my post. I'm not sure how that was vague. It's not a non-argument when "Person A explicitly said X" to point out "Person B responded as if Person A said not-X". I responded to a specific argument made, as you would have me do, by pointing out that the reply to Person A mischaracterized Person A's point.

Person A: "X"
Person B: You just said "not-X"
Me: "Did you not see Person A literally say "X", right above you?"
You: "You're being vague, with critical generalizations."

This conversation is just... bizarre to me. I'll drop it now though. This exchange is just so, so weird, I figured I'd make one last attempt to clarify for you what I intended.
 
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I literally responded to a post which mischaracterized another person's words right above my post. I'm not sure how that was vague.
Because in not quoting the person, you could've actually been referring to one of at least three posters in the thread, who were active around the same time. For clarity, myself included. Even if you were just replying to Senethro, it felt way too reductive and snarky, and since then you've seemed genuinely oblivious as to why making such a veiled comment on another poster's arguments would lead others to presume you're actually including them in the same criticism. But that's what happens when you're vague about something and refuse to spell out names. It's helpful for some of us, because this forum at times is a daft merry-go-round of not-saying-names-when-meaning-names.

I hope that clears it up. I agree this is a bit bizarre, so if you still are confused, do reach out for a PM if you have the time.
 
By white I assume we are talking about the Anglo-centric term referring northern Europeans? If the cast were all Mediterranean types, Greeks and Italians and Basque people some old white guy might still say there's not enough white representation?
 
By white I assume we are talking about the Anglo-centric term referring northern Europeans? If the cast were all Mediterranean types, Greeks and Italians and Basque people some old white guy might still say there's not enough white representation?

Yes, he might.
 
Over the summer I had the chance to see a local production of “Julius Caesar” where Marc Anthony was played by a woman and Calpurnia, Caesar’s spouse, was played by a man. In both cases the characters were referred to by the gender of their actors so Anthony was a woman and Caesar had a husband. This changed the play not at all because neither of their roles have essentially anything to do with the sex nor gender of the characters.

However, Portia, Brutus’s wife, was played by a woman. Portia has a number of critical lines within the play that directly address her history as a woman within a male-dominated society. Contrast this with Calpurnia whose roll has little directly to do with the character being a woman but instead focuses on the character’s relationship with Caesar.

I also saw “A Midsummer Night's Dream” where Ariel was played by a man, but that change is a little different because the character is a spirit, not a person.

I have no doubt that a skilled company could easily adopt Portia’s role to be man’s role, but it would require significant reworking of the character. Totally possible but a much more significant change than Anthony or Calpurnia changing gender.

From this, I hazard swapping gender or race or whatever in characters is dependent on how relevant that attribute is to the character. Staying with the Bard, changing Othello to a white man would dramatically change the play, assuming the rest of the characters are white. Changing Othello to be Asian would require change, but less significant. Whereas changing Iago to be a woman probably doesn’t matter at all because the character of Othello is defined by his race but Iago is not defined by his gender.

So let’s say there’s a swap of Crispus Atticus from “To Kill a Mockingbird.” Making Atticus black, while again retaining the race for most other characters, dramatically changes the story. If you made Atticus Asian, it would still change the story significantly. Make Atticus a woman and the core of the story would not change.

In other words, it’s all contextual. Which means there’s a lot of room for people to disagree on this. Someone can probably say that it’s critical that Calpurnia be a woman. Sure. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but you have to say why Calpurnia must be a woman to have some cred there. Some arguments are likely better considered than others in that regard; someone who says Calpurnia must be a woman because of traditional gender roles in society generally is making a different argument than someone who pulls Calpurnia’s lines and discusses why these lines only make sense coming from a woman.

A notable pop culture occurrence swap of gender and race from the original occurs in the 2021 “Dune” movie. In the book, Liet Kynes is a male from the majority culture of imperial society (presumably white) but in the recent movie, Kynes is a woman and is Freman. The change to Kynes’s gender is irrelevant to the story because Kynes as a character is not defined by gender. However, Kynes becoming a Freman is a significant change. In both the book and the movie, Kynes has feet in two world, being welcomed both by the city-dwelling imperials and by the native Freman. In the book, Kynes is a character who became enamored of the Freman cause after coming to the planet Dune. In the movie, where Kynes is a Freman, she is instead a Freman who rose into imperial society. For Kynes, the material change was to the character’s race because that’s part of the character’s story; the change to Kynes’s gender is irrelevant.

Just because there are meaningful changes from the original doesn’t mean those changes should be avoided. The character of Kynes in the movie works just fine as a Freman versus as an off-world imperial. Yes, the essence of the character is changed by the race swap, but that change isn’t relevant to the whole of the narrative. It’s not to say that Kynes’s race is irrelevant, but that the character works either way.

The point being that changes that are materially important to the character or the story must be taken with more care than changes that are less relevant.
 
I thought Marc Antony had children with Cleopatra. If this is not referenced in the play I suppose it doesn’t matter.
 
You are correct both in that Antony had a relationship with Cleopatra and that the relationship is not relevant to "Julius Caesar." However, it might be relevant to the other Shakespeare play "Antony and Cleopatra." I am much, much less familiar with the latter play, but it would not surprise me if Antony's gender is much more relevant to that play. It may well be totally fine (and it was) to gender swap the character in "Julius Caesar" but much more difficult to do the same in "Antony and Cleopatra." It's all contextual.
 
Because in not quoting the person...
Ugh, I'll try to let this go after this, I really will, but. Come. On. Here's Senethro's post (not @'ing him b/c I like him as a poster & don't wish to drag him into this just by using his post as an example), which I replied to, where he also *did not quote* the poster he was replying to because it was a post right above his:
"You can't political here, this is the Art Room!"

I notice you didn't offer him the same Pro-Tip: How To, Posting 101 advice shown below, even though everything you criticized me for could apply to him as well.
Because in not quoting the person, you could've actually been referring to one of at least three posters in the thread, who were active around the same time. For clarity, myself included. Even if you were just replying to Senethro, it felt way too reductive and snarky,... I hope that clears it up. I agree this is a bit bizarre, so if you still are confused, do reach out for a PM if you have the time.
If you're not sure why that's a condescending response that doesn't lend itself to legitimate discussions, & also does not apply the same criticism equally to all posters, then I guess PM me & I'll explain how to better communicate to people, if you have time [I did not really mean any of that, just wrote it to illustrate a point, so I immediately apologize for the above paragraph, but didn't it feel insulting while you were reading it?]
 
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Over the summer I had the chance to see a local production of “Julius Caesar” where Marc Anthony was played by a woman and Calpurnia, Caesar’s spouse, was played by a man. In both cases the characters were referred to by the gender of their actors so Anthony was a woman and Caesar had a husband. This changed the play not at all because neither of their roles have essentially anything to do with the sex nor gender of the characters.

However, Portia, Brutus’s wife, was played by a woman. Portia has a number of critical lines within the play that directly address her history as a woman within a male-dominated society. Contrast this with Calpurnia whose roll has little directly to do with the character being a woman but instead focuses on the character’s relationship with Caesar.

I also saw “A Midsummer Night's Dream” where Ariel was played by a man, but that change is a little different because the character is a spirit, not a person.

I have no doubt that a skilled company could easily adopt Portia’s role to be man’s role, but it would require significant reworking of the character. Totally possible but a much more significant change than Anthony or Calpurnia changing gender.

From this, I hazard swapping gender or race or whatever in characters is dependent on how relevant that attribute is to the character. Staying with the Bard, changing Othello to a white man would dramatically change the play, assuming the rest of the characters are white. Changing Othello to be Asian would require change, but less significant. Whereas changing Iago to be a woman probably doesn’t matter at all because the character of Othello is defined by his race but Iago is not defined by his gender.

So let’s say there’s a swap of Crispus Atticus from “To Kill a Mockingbird.” Making Atticus black, while again retaining the race for most other characters, dramatically changes the story. If you made Atticus Asian, it would still change the story significantly. Make Atticus a woman and the core of the story would not change.

In other words, it’s all contextual. Which means there’s a lot of room for people to disagree on this. Someone can probably say that it’s critical that Calpurnia be a woman. Sure. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but you have to say why Calpurnia must be a woman to have some cred there. Some arguments are likely better considered than others in that regard; someone who says Calpurnia must be a woman because of traditional gender roles in society generally is making a different argument than someone who pulls Calpurnia’s lines and discusses why these lines only make sense coming from a woman.
If you're going to genderswap historical figures, you'd better have a DAMN good reason. Same-sex marriage was not accepted in the Roman aristocracy, so that in itself elicits an eyeroll reaction from me. And if you're going to show Marc Antony as a woman, my mind is going to extrapolate to the rest of the Julio-Claudian family tree and I'd probably get exasperated enough to get up and leave ('cause if Marc Antony was female, how did Antonia Major and Minor get born - they were Original Antony's daughters by Octavia, so is Octavia supposed to be a man now?)

A notable pop culture occurrence swap of gender and race from the original occurs in the 2021 “Dune” movie. In the book, Liet Kynes is a male from the majority culture of imperial society (presumably white) but in the recent movie, Kynes is a woman and is Freman. The change to Kynes’s gender is irrelevant to the story because Kynes as a character is not defined by gender. However, Kynes becoming a Freman is a significant change. In both the book and the movie, Kynes has feet in two world, being welcomed both by the city-dwelling imperials and by the native Freman. In the book, Kynes is a character who became enamored of the Freman cause after coming to the planet Dune. In the movie, where Kynes is a Freman, she is instead a Freman who rose into imperial society. For Kynes, the material change was to the character’s race because that’s part of the character’s story; the change to Kynes’s gender is irrelevant.
In the book, Kynes is the SON of Pardot Kynes, the Imperial Planetologist. Pardot marries a Fremen woman in order to attain a position of belonging among the people of Sietch Tabr, so that makes his SON - Liet - half-Fremen and half-notFremen. Liet, in HIS turn, marries a Fremen woman named Faroula, and they have a daughter named Chani. Faroula dies when Chani is a child, and since Liet is busy most of the time, Chani is basically raised in Stilgar's yali (his household). Stilgar and Liet have a relationship akin to blood-brotherhood, so Stilgar is considered a kind of uncle to Chani.

This is in the book. It's in the Encyclopedia. It's partly in the Lynch movie. Yet there are so many people ranting that there's no proof of any relationship at all between Liet-Kynes and Chani, so who cares if Kynes is genderswapped?

I guess the line (in both novel and Lynch movie): "I am Chani, daughter of Liet" somehow isn't proof enough. There's a sadly-deleted scene in the Lynch movie in which it's plainly stated that Chani's FATHER, Liet, was killed. Later on, when Paul and Chani are alone, they observe that one thing they have in common is that they've both lost a father to the Harkonnens.

So no, this pointless genderswap doesn't work for me.

Just because there are meaningful changes from the original doesn’t mean those changes should be avoided. The character of Kynes in the movie works just fine as a Freman versus as an off-world imperial. Yes, the essence of the character is changed by the race swap, but that change isn’t relevant to the whole of the narrative. It’s not to say that Kynes’s race is irrelevant, but that the character works either way.
I'm going to reiterate this point, because I've been called racist for being against this female Kynes. I honestly do not care what color this actress' skin is. My point is that Liet-Kynes not supposed to be female. He is supposed to be male, for reasons I have already stated MANY times.
 
Those reasons are all completely irrelevant to the story. Nothing of consequence changes because of it.

Herbert didn't write enough female characters into his story. This is partially corrected with the actress playing Dr Kynes.
 
Those reasons are all completely irrelevant to the story. Nothing of consequence changes because of it.

Herbert didn't write enough female characters into his story. This is partially corrected with the actress playing Dr Kynes.
Sorry, but that's just buying into Villeneuve's excuses. There are PLENTY of female characters in Dune, and the further along you get, you begin to notice that there are many more female characters than male characters.

If Villeneuve's movie hadn't been split into two parts and cut out one of the female characters, we'd have already encountered Princess Irulan (she, not Chani, is the actual narrator).

Here are the female roles in Dune I can think of, off the top of my head:

Jessica
Mohiam
Shadout Mapes
Alia
Irulan
Reverend Mother Ramallo
Margot, Lady Fenring
Chani
Harah
Various minor Fremen on Arrakis both in Arrakeen and in the sietch
Various minor Imperial women on Arrakis, especially in the banquet scene

Trust me, there are LOTS of female roles in Dune. Villeneuve just couldn't be bothered to count them because he wanted HIS FAVORITE to have a part, whether there was one available or not. So he "corrected" nothing.
 
He doesn't need "excuses". He is not making a documentary about the book. He can make whatever changes he wants.

Those female characters you listed don't have enough action time. Casting a woman to play Dr Kynes gives us a woman character who does something. There's nothing at all wrong with the change, and it doesn't impact the story whatsoever. It doesn't matter what was written in the book.

I liked the change. Dr Kynes was great.

"I serve only one master. His name is Shai Halud."
- best part of the 2021 movie

Villeneuve should've gotten someone like Cate Blanchet or Charlize Theron to play Gurney Halleck. That would've been awesome.
 
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He doesn't need "excuses". He is not making a documentary about the book. He can make whatever changes he wants.
I have no patience with the "this isn't a documentary" trot-out unless it's people screeching about the way the Handmaid's Tale characters are depicted. That show is about a dystopian theocracy's treatment of women. It's not a documentary about race relations in the U.S.

Sure, he can make whatever changes he wants, and I get to call him out on it.

Those female characters you listed don't have enough action time. Casting a woman to play Dr Kynes gives us a woman character who does something. There's nothing at all wrong with the change, and it doesn't impact the story whatsoever. It doesn't matter what was written in the book.
Actually, it does matter what was written in the book. Otherwise, it's not an adaptation. If he's going to make other changes, he might as well have just written his own story and left Dune out of it. There are quite a number of SF movies that piggyback on the name of the author or the title of the book and the actual content of it has little to do with the source material or twists it for no reason other than the director's whim.

Strong characters don't need to have "action." They need to have a reason to be in the story and affect it. Every character I listed has a reason to be in the story and their absence makes the story less-Dune.

I liked the change. Dr Kynes was great.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to disagree with you.

Villeneuve should've gotten someone like Cate Blanchet or Charlize Theron to play Gurney Halleck. That would've been awesome.
That would have been ridiculous. There are already women fighters in the Duniverse. Fremen women fight, and if the grandiose notions of carrying these movies forward to do the entire 6 novels ever happens, there will be more women fighters than ever - the only male fighter in God Emperor of Dune is Duncan Idaho. The rest are Leto II's Fish Speaker army.

But then I'm sure you'll love the TV project Villeneuve is doing with KJA/BH. Sisterhood of Dune is based on the nuDune crap, which doesn't even pretend to be faithful to the source material while KJA keeps lying and lying and lying about "the notes."
 
An adaptation is not an exact copy of the book. Things change between adaptations. If there's nothing new then there's no point in even making it.

I really don't understand the level of objection here. How does Dr Kynes being a woman change the story and ruin it? Why is this so important? (other than "that's the text of the book")
 
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