Indonesian man jailed for public skepticism

[CELTICEMPIRE]

What extreme is that? Religious freedom for everybody, including those who have no religion?

That's what I'd like our country to be.

The other extreme is freedom of religion being taken away from religious people.

 

[kramerfan86]

The only "religious freedom" being taken away from religious people in the west these days is the "right" to force religious morals on non-believers.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Indonesia does not recognize agnosticism or atheism, and blasphemy is illegal.

Why should it? Atheism is not a religion. I suppose if I had to, I'd hold my nose and choose the least offensive one that didn't require any stupid public rituals, and go on believing as I really do. But in a country where I have complete freedom of belief, I do have the right to refuse to swear on a bible when promising to fulfill my duties as an election officer - and to not care if the one taking the oaths got impatient and annoyed at the 2 minutes' extra work I caused him to find the right piece of paper.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

The only "religious freedom" being taken away from religious people in the west these days is the "right" to force religious morals on non-believers.

They've outlawed circumcision, criticism of homosexuality, and much more in the west. I just love how some people think America is in danger of becoming a theocracy when there is a growing number of Atheists/agnostics, and more Christians are starting to care less about religion.

 

[Old Hippy]

They've outlawed circumcision, .

to be correct it still perfectly legal to get yourself circumcised... what they are outlawing is people chopping of other peoples forskiins... if you want to chop off some of yours... I'm sure you can still do it...

 

[kramerfan86]

They've outlawed circumcision, criticism of homosexuality, and much more in the west. I just love how some people think America is in danger of becoming a theocracy when there is a growing number of Atheists/agnostics, and more Christians are starting to care less about religion.

Once again, you are only losing your ability to force morals on others, not the right to follow your own morals. Circumcisions are forcing a religious act on someone who hasnt chosen it. Dictating what homosexuals can do is dictating your morals on someone else. What is an example of a western government dictating something you cant do in YOUR life?

 

[AlpsStranger]

They've outlawed circumcision, criticism of homosexuality, and much more in the west. I just love how some people think America is in danger of becoming a theocracy when there is a growing number of Atheists/agnostics, and more Christians are starting to care less about religion.

So why can an atheist/agnostic still not reasonably expect to hold office in America?

I'm sorry, but you can still basically say that the irreligious are scum and get a whole stadium full of Americans to cheer.

I don't want to ban Christianity, and I don't want to ban their ability to be honest about how they feel about things. I just don't want them to automatically have the high ground in public.

 

[Lord Gay]

Several state Cons have text prohibiting atheists from holding public office. Such text has since been rendered null by the Feds, but it's still there.

EDIT

They've outlawed circumcision, criticism of homosexuality, and much more in the west. I just love how some people think America is in danger of becoming a theocracy when there is a growing number of Atheists/agnostics, and more Christians are starting to care less about religion.

Could you elaborate on the bold?

People are concerned about the theocratic bent of the US due to the vast number of Christian politicians, the fact that many of them wear their religion on their sleeve, how not being Christian enough is a slur against other politicians, how much of a role it plays in political debates, election campaigns and sundry aspects of daily life, and the large number of legal proposals and existing laws that favor or promote Chrisitianity.

 

[MobBoss]

Earlier this year, Indonesian civil servant Alexander Aan posted on Facebook that he doubted the existence of God. He was then attacked and beaten by an angry mob, and arrested for blasphemy.

On June 14, Aan was convicted of “disseminating information aimed at inciting religious hatred or hostility,” sentenced to 30 months in prison, and saddled with a large fine. Now many Indonesians are calling for his death.

By punishing Aan, Indonesia is violating its obligations to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which guarantees every person the rights to freedom of belief and expression. We petition the Obama administration to call upon the Indonesian government to immediately release Alexander Aan and improve its protections for religious dissidents and nonbelievers.

linksys for White House petition

I didn't know Indonesia was as backwards as Saudi. This is just sad.

So now that Romney's been outed by the Boston Globe as having lied to either the SEC or the American body politic about his tenure with Bain Capital concurrent with certain goings-on there, what are the ramifications? If he's found to have lied to the SEC, which I think is more likely, then he's a felon. Does that void his presidential bid? What happens if that is the case? Is it an open RNC convention? What are the likely ramifications of Santorum or Paul winning the nomination? Or, with the shoe on the other foot, what if he's found to be lying to The Rest of Us, and is in fact responsible for all that outsourcing and "vulture capitalism" that destroyed so many jobs? Plus the obvious fact that he lied to us twice.

I choose you, CFC! Use "speculate" attack!

If you have the UN behind you, what do you need the USA for?

Why should it? Atheism is not a religion.

At its base its still just a belief system.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It is actually a lack of belief system. But I wouldn't expect you to appreciate that given how you admit to discriminating against atheists yourself.

 

[civ_king]

What extreme is that? Religious freedom for everybody, including those who have no religion?

I imagine he is talking about mandatory freedom from religion Soviet style

 

[MobBoss]

It is actually a lack of belief system. But I wouldn't expect you to appreciate that given how you admit to discriminating against atheists yourself.

Actually, I do appreciate it enough to simply state fact about it. Its not a 'lack of belief' unless one (incorrectly) defines 'belief' being solely religious in nature. Its not. Athiests 'believe' they are right, many times to the point of arrogance. And i'm honest enough that many religious people do this as well, but all that means is that humans are more than apt to be arrogant and rude in defense of their own particular belief systems. While atheists might like to consider themselves above all that, they really arent, and in the end arent any different than anyone else where a belief system is concerned.

As to being discriminatory - well, we all do that as well Form, including you.

 

[kramerfan86]

I imagine he is talking about mandatory freedom from religion Soviet style

I imagine so, but he is failing to provide any reasonable signs that anything even close to that is occurring. Thus far all he has been able to provide is the decreasing ability to enforce morality on others not one's ability to live one's life as they want for themselves.

 

[Save_Ferris]

So why can an atheist/agnostic still not reasonably expect to hold office in America?

I'm sorry, but you can still basically say that the irreligious are scum and get a whole stadium full of Americans to cheer.

I don't want to ban Christianity, and I don't want to ban their ability to be honest about how they feel about things. I just don't want them to automatically have the high ground in public.

Easier said than done. Keep in mind that this happens on both sides. When a minority is attacked, they fight back as much as they can, making it true that some atheists are fighting Christians. Both sides need to respect each other.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I imagine he is talking about mandatory freedom from religion Soviet style

Only that is largely a myth, never mind the supposed discrimination of Christians in the US.

As to being discriminatory - well, we all do that as well Form, including you.

I vote for Christians all the time. So don't try to accuse me of being anything like you in that regard. While there are clearly some atheists who are just as obnoxious as some Christians are, most of both groups aren't so in the least. It is just more blatant hatemongering.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I think it's shorthand for western social progression. Obviously, and tragically, things can become quite fanatical and deadly in the present as well as the future.

To be honest I still think there's ~2% 100% shot that America will be like this in fifty years months.

Fixed.

 

[Ailedhoo]

They've outlawed circumcision, criticism of homosexuality, and much more in the west. I just love how some people think America is in danger of becoming a theocracy when there is a growing number of Atheists/agnostics, and more Christians are starting to care less about religion.

The case in Germany? Illegallising circumcision had not been enforced the last I heard. The Chancellor did not support the purposed law...

Discriminating those whose sexuality is homosexuality is bigotry. Anyone who tries to defend homophobia via "religius freedom" is not doing it for good of all but for spite and "a love of symbols." This may be taken in consideration to the matters around this.

The notion of "attack on religion" is not the secularisation that we follow. Want to see actual attack on religion? North Korea might be a good case. What a place that strictly follows religion? Iran. Secularism is of ballance and liberty. I speak as a Britian, from a country that is seculare and seen the benefits from it. Intrestingly the Church of England is not overhold and our head of state is the head of the church... the debates are argumentive on that at times but it would be a mistake to force religius views, including athiest views if be, for it is one of the most personal of choices to follow a religion. In that comes the path towards democratic society.

 

[AlpsStranger]

MobBoss can dislike me all he wants all day long so long as the government doesn't enforce it.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Fixed.

Nah, it's not that likely that the outright Theocrats will get the upper hand. It's just possible enough to be on guard, but I'm not overly concerned yet.

 

[Arwon]

His case has stoked a debate in the world's most populous Muslim nation, whose 240 million citizens are technically guaranteed freedom of religion but protected by law only if they believe in one of six credos: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism.

Hang on. Does Confucianism have gods?