Institutional racism in policing and how to rectify it.

[Zelig]

@Zelig: I really don't think that would accomplish anything. What happens after those temporary contracts are expired and we revert back to our normal police forces?

New contracts with new Indians. There are a lot of Indians.

 

[Bootstoots]

Hire more non-Americans into American police forces.

If you bring Indians over on temporary contracts you can probably get away with paying them not much more than minimum wage.

I doubt that would be a good idea - I don't think Indian police have the best reputations overall (especially for corruption). But all of the other developed countries have police homicide rates far lower than the US. Maybe some small number of them could be hired to be temporarily embedded into US police departments and encouraged to write reports on what they experience and suggest different tactics? I doubt our police would like that, but it might at least shed some light on why our police homicide rate is so high.

Of course requiring cameras to be worn and turned on while police are on-duty would also be a good idea. Studies done on that suggest it dramatically lowers both real and baseless complaints about the police.

 

[JohnRM]

First, we have to determine what 'institutional' really means. It means something that is organized and structured in such as way as to be intentional. Law enforcement agencies, banks, and other institutions are NOT structured in such a way as to be racist, nor are they racist as a matter of policy. So, what we have is certainly NOT institutional racism.

What we are dealing with are individuals who choose to assume that all blacks (and others) are criminals and treat them with a heightened degree of distrust. This occurs, in part, because blacks do (as an indisputable fact) commit a disproportionate amount of the crimes. This is the case, because they also account for a disproportionate amount of those people living in high density, poor neighborhoods. This can be directly linked the (actual) institution of slavery. Blacks simply have not escaped having being cut loose of their bondage with just the clothes on their backs.

The approach to solving the problem is not going to be as simple as sensitivity training on the part of the police. It will not help blacks living in poor neighborhoods one iota. Blacks (and all children everywhere) need better public schools, or other equivalent opportunities; free or cheap access to higher education, depending on merit; and government investment in turning these poor neighborhoods to clean them up, revitalize them, and give poor city folk something to be proud of. We're talking about repairing buildings, street lighting, and much more.

In addition to all of that, the police need to be held to account for mistreatment of citizens, not just reprimanded or moved to another precinct. Officers who commit crimes need to be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law. It would also do wonders if there were community events where officers and people from the communities they police came together to do neighborhood watch, safety training, neighborhood beautification, and other such things to get these people working together. A police officer should be sent to EVERY address to talk to each citizen (if practical) at least once per year to have at least a twenty minute conversation with locals.

Do these things and I guarantee you'd see dramatic improvement.

 

[Kaitzilla]

If you want to deal with institutional racism in policing, the first thing that needs to happen is for people to accept it actually exists.

Also, black lives need to be seen as being of equal worth as white lives.

This sounds right to me.
I have no idea where to even start on the issue. (I'm white)


If I had to point at any one cause based on my personal experience, it would be my theory that dark faces are just plain harder to read than lighter ones.

Is that guy over there happy, sad, or angry?
At night it's hard to tell, so you feel unsecure around all guys when you can't judge their mood cause you can't see. (you means me )

During the daylight with brown/black faces, it takes up to a second to be able to judge their mood, so there is a slight feeling of unease like you get at night for a brief moment. (up to 1 second)

Then it kinds of feeds on itself with the harder than normal looks that the other person with darker skin experiences along with the slight release of tension that makes little sense to them.


Most cops I've interacted with didn't seem to relax until they got a good look at my face.

I'll point towards pets to support my theory that the entire thing is an eyesight problem.
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ome_are_people_racist_against_black_pets.html
http://www.cattell.net/devon/BlackCats/bc.html

Just when you were hoping there were no new ways to be racist, it turns out people may be racist against dogs. Black Dog Syndrome is the name shelter workers have given to the tendency of dark-furred pups to languish in kennels while their lighter-furred brethren get adopted. “The effect is very real,” says Mirah Horowitz, executive director and founder of Lucky Dog Animal Rescue. “We recently had a litter of five very cute, very fluffy puppies, two yellow and three black. And the yellow ones all went immediately, but for the black ones it took weeks.”

Black dogs get euthanized at higher rates. They linger at pounds and adoption agencies for longer than light-colored dogs, and they are less likely to find a home. Marika Bell, director of behavior and rehoming for the Humane Society of Washington, D.C., says the organization has been tracking animals that have stayed at their shelters the longest since March 2013. They found that three characteristics put a pet at risk of becoming one of these so-called “hidden gems”: medium size, an age of 2-3 years, and an ebony coat.

What kind of nefarious psychological quirk would prevent someone from adopting a dog based on fur color?




...Bell has her own pet theory: “I think it comes down to facial expressions,” she tells me. “People attach to dogs when they can read their facial expressions, and on black dogs those are harder to make out. You can barely see their eyebrows, and it becomes harder to humanize them and connect on an emotional level.”

Now I'm not saying this explains everything about 1000's of years of horrible race relations / slavery / police abuse, but I think this is where it started/starts.

 

[Farm Boy]

Why 'un'American? You are always using force on other countries, by invading them, by blockading them, by using trade sanctions against them, etc. It's portrayed as legitimate for the US as a whole to use violence that way.

Actually, I need to revisit this as my first response didn't contain nearly enough ''screw you Tak'' in it.

How dare I think we should do better? How dare I believe we are called to do better? We're just belligerent thugs, eh? Can't expect better from life in the evil empire, right? We get what we deserve. It's practically our national identity.

How dare you. Go take your practical jingoism and dunk your head in a bucket of cat piss.

Moderator Action: Flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[JohnRM]

This sounds right to me.
I have no idea where to even start on the issue. (I'm white)


If I had to point at any one cause based on my personal experience, it would be my theory that dark faces are just plain harder to read than lighter ones.

Is that guy over there happy, sad, or angry?
At night it's hard to tell, so you feel unsecure around all guys when you can't judge their mood cause you can't see. (you means me )

During the daylight with brown/black faces, it takes up to a second to be able to judge their mood, so there is a slight feeling of unease like you get at night for a brief moment. (up to 1 second)

Then it kinds of feeds on itself with the harder than normal looks that the other person with darker skin experiences along with the slight release of tension that makes little sense to them.


Most cops I've interacted with didn't seem to relax until they get a good look at my face.

I'll point towards pets to support my theory that the entire thing is an eyesight problem.
http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ome_are_people_racist_against_black_pets.html
http://www.cattell.net/devon/BlackCats/bc.html

A lot of this also has to do with differences in facial structure among certain members of the "races". For example, my uncle's father in law has a face when "idle" makes him look angry. He isn't, clearly. There are similarities across the races.

 

[caketastydelish]

The fact that drug arrests are far more black than proportional alone should prove that discrimination against blacks exist within the police force. As to how to solve it, that's something I don't know.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The fact that drug arrests are far more black than proportional alone should prove that discrimination against blacks exist within the police force. As to how to solve it, that's something I don't know.

By and large, the only people who don't already know it will reject any proof they are presented with anyway.

 

[JohnRM]

The fact that drug arrests are far more black than proportional alone should prove that discrimination against blacks exist within the police force. As to how to solve it, that's something I don't know.

By and large, the only people who don't already know it will reject any proof they are presented with anyway.

Are you honestly trying to claim that the rate of drug use is the same from one group to the next? So if there are 1000 whites and 100 blacks in a town and the cops arrest a black person for possession, they have to find 10 whites to arrest? Surely, I must have misunderstood you.

 

[Farm Boy]

Are you honestly trying to claim that the rate of drug use is the same from one group to the next? So if there are 1000 whites and 100 blacks in a town and the cops arrest a black person for possession, they have to find 10 whites to arrest? Surely, I must have misunderstood you.

Given that most drug arrests are for marijuana and that whites are consistently more likely to consume marijuana than the black population I think you understood him just fine.

 

[caketastydelish]

Are you honestly trying to claim that the rate of drug use is the same from one group to the next? So if there are 1000 whites and 100 blacks in a town and the cops arrest a black person for possession, they have to find 10 whites to arrest? Surely, I must have misunderstood you.

Whites use drugs just as much on a per-capita basis, if not more.

 

[JohnRM]

Given that most drug arrests are for marijuana and that whites are consistently more likely to consume marijuana than the black population I think you understood him just fine.

Where do most whites live who consume these drugs? They live in the rural areas and the suburbs, where police presence is greatly decreased. Where do most blacks live? They live in the cities where crime is rampant and police presence is at its highest. This has nothing to do with racism. Even so, you just admitted that whites use marijuana at a higher rate, which means that it is indeed possible that blacks commit other crimes at a higher rate, which would account for their being arrested more often.

If you want something to complain about, complain that white collar criminals get away with far more egregious crimes and suffer far less punishment than rather mundane crimes committed by blacks and poorer whites. Complain that penalties for drugs predominately used by whites have penalties far tamer than those predominately used by blacks. There is no need to imagine things or to make them up as you go along.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

By and large, the only people who don't already know it will reject any proof they are presented with anyway.

This has nothing to do with racism.

I rest my case.

 

[JohnRM]

I rest my case.

Except for that whole second paragraph I just wrote detailing real examples of racism, but yeah.

 

[Farm Boy]

Where do most whites live who consume these drugs? They live in the rural areas and the suburbs, where police presence is greatly decreased. Where do most blacks live? They live in the cities where crime is rampant and police presence is at its highest. This has nothing to do with racism. Even so, you just admitted that whites use marijuana at a higher rate, which means that it is indeed possible that blacks commit other crimes at a higher rate, which would account for their being arrested more often.

If you want something to complain about, complain that white collar criminals get away with far more egregious crimes and suffer far less punishment than rather mundane crimes committed by blacks and poorer whites. Complain that penalties for drugs predominately used by whites have penalties far tamer than those predominately used by blacks. There is no need to imagine things or to make them up as you go along.

Look at the arrest rates for the big bag of crimes in this country. Add in the fact that whites commit the crime of marijuana possession at greater rates per capita, account for over half the population, and live quite heavily in urban areas. Even if I take everything you say at full credit, and hell, lets say I'm inclined to: the result we wind up with the rate of black people being arrested for possession of drugs is smack on exactly the definition of institutional racism.

 

[Bootstoots]

Where do most whites live who consume these drugs? They live in the rural areas and the suburbs, where police presence is greatly decreased. Where do most blacks live? They live in the cities where crime is rampant and police presence is at its highest. This has nothing to do with racism. Even so, you just admitted that whites use marijuana at a higher rate, which means that it is indeed possible that blacks commit other crimes at a higher rate, which would account for their being arrested more often.

The different levels of police coverage in poor black urban areas compared to mostly-white suburbs and rural areas certainly do explain some of the discrepancy between white and black arrest rates for marijuana, and drugs in general. Is it enough to cover the whole gap? IIRC this is something like a factor of 4 for marijuana arrests and a higher factor for crack cocaine. Whites make up something like half of all crack users but a tiny proportion of crack arrests; while the black use rate here is higher than white, their arrest rate for crack is far higher than their somewhat higher use of crack can explain. Overall, I suspect that there would still be a significant racial difference in arrest rates for minor offenses (drug use and small-time dealing, petty theft, etc) left over even after adjusting for living patterns, income, and racial differences in crime rates. I'm less sure whether this holds for violent crimes.

I don't think anybody was claiming that crime rates by race were identical, which is obviously false. The point is that arrests of blacks for offenses like drug use occur at proportions far higher than their proportion of the overall number of those kinds of offenses.

If you want something to complain about, complain that white collar criminals get away with far more egregious crimes and suffer far less punishment than rather mundane crimes committed by blacks and poorer whites. Complain that penalties for drugs predominately used by whites have penalties far tamer than those predominately used by blacks. There is no need to imagine things or to make them up as you go along.

No argument here, other than that I don't see any evidence anyone's imagining things or making them up as they go along.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Where do most whites live who consume these drugs? They live in the rural areas and the suburbs, where police presence is greatly decreased. Where do most blacks live? They live in the cities where crime is rampant and police presence is at its highest. This has nothing to do with racism. Even so, you just admitted that whites use marijuana at a higher rate, which means that it is indeed possible that blacks commit other crimes at a higher rate, which would account for their being arrested more often.

If you want something to complain about, complain that white collar criminals get away with far more egregious crimes and suffer far less punishment than rather mundane crimes committed by blacks and poorer whites. Complain that penalties for drugs predominately used by whites have penalties far tamer than those predominately used by blacks. There is no need to imagine things or to make them up as you go along.

Except for that whole second paragraph I just wrote detailing real examples of racism, but yeah.

Didn't need the second paragraph. You detailed the institutional racism under discussion quite well in the first paragraph...while trying to deny it.

Police presence is high in the cities. Is this because 'crime is rampant'? Or do high arrest rates due to the high police presence present the image that crime is occurring at a higher rate?

Well, we've already determined that whites are just as likely to be marijuana users but far less likely to be arrested. Whether this is because cops actively target blacks for arrest, or because cops are just assigned to where the black people are in greater numbers doesn't really make a difference. The effect is that blacks are more likely to get arrested while not being any more likely to commit the crime.

 

[JohnRM]

A cursory look yields the following results:

Nationwide: 64 percent white / 12 percent black
New York City: 33 percent / 26 percent
Los Angeles: 29 percent / 10 percent
Chicago: 32 percent / 33 percent
Houston: 51 percent / 24 percent
Philadelphia: 37 percent / 43 percent
Phoenix: 47 percent / 7 percent
San Antonio: 27 percent / 7 percent
San Diego: 45 percent / 7 percent
Dallas: 29 percent / 25 percent
San Jose: 29 percent / 3 percent


So, as you can see, in the top ten largest cities by population, blacks are generally over-represented, particularly in the eastern half of the country and whites are universally under-represented. This is where the bulk of the crime takes place in this country. The whites who live there are predominately wealthier. The blacks are predominately poorer. They don't get arrested more often because they're black. They get arrested more often because they're living in poor neighborhoods where the bulk of the crimes take place.

Do rich people commit crimes? Absolutely, but they won't get caught because a patrol car is driving down the street in Georgetown. They're gonna get caught by the SEC or FBI. You want institutional racism, look up the arrest statistics for the SEC. I bet it's better than 90 percent white. Do I cry about it? No, because whites commit the vast majority of "white collar" crimes and then they go to white collar resort prisons for a vacation or house arrest.

There are reasons for this that mimic racism. Some of it is real racism, but the bulk of the effect is a matter of where you live and the distant effects of slavery.

 

[JohnRM]

The different levels of police coverage in poor black urban areas compared to mostly-white suburbs and rural areas certainly do explain some of the discrepancy between white and black arrest rates for marijuana, and drugs in general. Is it enough to cover the whole gap? IIRC this is something like a factor of 4 for marijuana arrests and a higher factor for crack cocaine. Whites make up something like half of all crack users but a tiny proportion of crack arrests; while the black use rate here is higher than white, their arrest rate for crack is far higher than their somewhat higher use of crack can explain. Overall, I suspect that there would still be a significant racial difference in arrest rates for minor offenses (drug use and small-time dealing, petty theft, etc) left over even after adjusting for living patterns, income, and racial differences in crime rates. I'm less sure whether this holds for violent crimes.

The rates of use are infamously hard to calculate due to the fact that you are relying on typically paranoid individuals to come forward and admit it. For all you or I know, whites could account for even more of the users. We just can't be sure. What we do know is that the bulk of the police presence is in poor black inner city neighborhoods.

I don't think anybody was claiming that crime rates by race were identical, which is obviously false. The point is that arrests of blacks for offenses like drug use occur at proportions far higher than their proportion of the overall number of those kinds of offenses.

And of course, we go straight to a sort of post hoc ergo propter hoc. More blacks are arrested for this crime, therefore it must be racism. You have to look beyond that for the answers. Is racism a part of it? Without a doubt, but it is by far not the primary factor.

No argument here, other than that I don't see any evidence anyone's imagining things or making them up as they go along.

It depends upon your point of view. If I am correct and the arrest rates of blacks has more to do with location, income levels, and other non-racial factors, then those who disagree are indeed imagining and/or making things up as they go along. I don't mean this as a sly "you're dumb" kind of argument. I just hate to see people jump to conclusions because they sound good. You will never solve the problem that way.

 

[JohnRM]

Didn't need the second paragraph. You detailed the institutional racism under discussion quite well in the first paragraph...while trying to deny it.

So, you will contend that there are police commissioners, mayors, and other city officials in courthouses across this country plotting against blacks? Is that what you believe?

Police presence is high in the cities. Is this because 'crime is rampant'? Or do high arrest rates due to the high police presence present the image that crime is occurring at a higher rate?

If we can't even agree that crime rates are higher in poor, high-density urban areas, we really should not attempt to debate the issue. That is a fundamental fact that is easily discernible and without dispute by any reputable authority or expert on the matter.

Well, we've already determined that whites are just as likely to be marijuana users but far less likely to be arrested. Whether this is because cops actively target blacks for arrest, or because cops are just assigned to where the black people are in greater numbers doesn't really make a difference. The effect is that blacks are more likely to get arrested while not being any more likely to commit the crime.

This, in and of itself is not racism. It is, generally, an unintended consequence. The best solution to the problem is to decriminalize marijuana and to treat drug use as a health problem, not a legal problem.