Is Britain about to leave the EU?
- Thread starter Mega Tsunami
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JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Corporations are the people, you see. They are citizens of the world and it would be unfair to burden them with the consequences of someone's actions.
Snerk
Smeghead
Finally someone sticking up for the corporations! They have feelings too you know.
EnglishEdward
Deity
If you are referring to me and about Theresa May giving Nissan reassurances,
I can only report that I was driving my wife to work, cooking breakfast for my
children and buying a copy of the Saturday edition of the "1" newspaper to read.
I was not at Theresa May's meeting with Nissan and can only guess what was said.
I know what I would have said, but people might consider me disingenuous if I was
to simply reply on the basis of my best guestimate of the line of that conversation.
Corporations have fillings, called people.
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
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- 8,653
Yes Edward. This is truly a golden moment in your life to be blessed in such a way.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
This was too good not to post.
Cheetah
Deity
Yeah, saw that one. It's a good trolling. 
EnglishEdward
Deity
I like that graphic too.
In Civ2 terminology, by failing to send the letter applying to leave under Article 50
in June 2016 the United Kingdom now has four, instead of one, months of disorder.
In Civ2 terminology, by failing to send the letter applying to leave under Article 50
in June 2016 the United Kingdom now has four, instead of one, months of disorder.
Cheetah
Deity
Personally, I'm getting really impatient with May. The end of March can't come soon enough!
aelf
Ashen One
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...kdown-on-overseas-students-and-new-work-visas
Well, it's pretty telling that you're not aware of what the UK government is doing. I'd reckon the average Brexit voter is even less informed of the goings-on in the government.
Aside from that, you also have a habit of jumping into conversations without knowing how it started. Someone commented that "The UK workforce just isn't big enough or skilled enough to sustain the tech sector." The topic of foreign students is naturally a corollary to that issue.
The experts (typically professionals dealing with higher education - as compared to someone with no credentials like yourself) certainly agree that foreign students are a good source of income for UK universities. As to whether the universities really need that income, even if what you allege is true, do you imagine that the universities are going to simply take a loss on the income and everything simply will continue as it is? In all probability, if fees are not raised, there will be more cost-cutting.
Who's going to make sure that British students will not suffer the consequences, whether in the form of higher costs or lower quality of education? The pro-Brexit Tory government?
EnglishEdward
Deity
Three comments on this:
First of all it is an appeal to authority and I am old enough to ask where that authoritative person earns their living i.e. gets their money.
Secondly, I have never claimed that foreign students are not a good source of income for UK universities, so that is a bit of a strawman.
Thirdly, under the labour government a large number of spurious colleges were set up offering spurious courses as a method of enabling immigration.
There has been some clamp down of this, but concern remains that wealthy foreigners are simply buying admission to the UK for their children.
My guesstimate is that the higher fee element for foreign students, when indeed there is a higher fee element, simply goes to higher salaries for the academics.
There may be some cross subsidy towards their academic research, but I have been shown no evidence that there is a significant cross subsidy to UK students.
I can see that if there is a course with 20 students (10 UK and 10 foreign) the university can legitimately say that it would not be economically viable to offer that course
to just the 10 UK students, but the solution to that is for universities with significantly undersubscribed courses to collaborate with others or close them and let the
UK students study elsewhere in the UK. They have to do this anyway when total students for the course drop below its break even point, so nothing new in principle.
It is therefore difficult for me to see why a review of current arrangements will adversely impact UK students unless it is applied too quickly. That is indeed a danger.
It happened in the 1970s. If a legitimate foreign student has just started a legitimate three year course having been quoted costs for the three years, the government ought not
to break that arrangement. But if the student fails to show for lectures and is taking paid employment instead, then in my opinion that student should be re-categorised as a migrant.
As profit seeking entities, universities will resist any curbs on their revenue sources so it is quite understandable that they will deliberately confuse in the various arguments about
whether foreign students are immigrants or not, with economic viability of university courses, freedom to recruit best in world without filling in a visa, rights of ex students to
remain in the UK (some seem to think that payment of fees should give long term residence rights) as dubious softening up activity and justifications for threats of putting fees up.
For what it is worth my view is that a foreign student is not an immigrant if they are not in paid employment in the UK and have a home abroad to live in; so I am not in accord
with that particular faction of the conservative party that thinks that all foreign students studying in the UK should be counted as immigrants.
It is very reasonable for universities to be alert to the unintended consequents of changes in government policy; but to me their line that if you do this fees for UK students
must go up, seems sadly reminescent of the Remain campaign's project fear.
The pro-Brexit Tory government?
In my opinion this government is rather divided and not particularly pro-Brexit.
It is merely responding to what the majority of the UK electorate (that actually voted) voted for on 23 June 2016, and frankly it is taking its time.
aelf
Ashen One
Yes, of course. The Brexit line is you've had enough of experts. They're all in the pay of someone or other, like climate scientists in the eyes of AGW sceptics.
Nope.
The original point of contention is your scepticism towards the idea that this lucrative source of income is cross-subsidising local students. Your allegation seems to be that universities are simply raking in the cash every which way, both from foreign and local students. My experience, having been through UK higher education within the last ten years, suggests to me that this is not the case for most universities, taking into account the need for universities to invest in their facilities and infrastructure, especially as existing ones age. So clearly, your idea of a good source of income is different from mine: You think foreign students are a good source of income because they simply allow universities to boost their profits; I think they're a good source of income because the money gives universities more capability to spend on what they need. The experts quoted in the news reports also subscribe to the latter view.
Well, there's no point debating someone who is determined to deny reality and the risks that Brexit and the Tory government's anti-immigration stance pose, as posters in this thread have probably gathered. I only responded to you to point out the facts as they have been reported. You remain sceptical, obviously, so all that remains is to wait and see what happens.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
From the article,
So, a Labour MP who deals with higher education, a representative from a trade union representing workers in higher education, a representative of an advocacy group for higher education bodies, and a representative of business organisation whose remit covers higher education.
It's some conspiracy you've unearthed here, right enough.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
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- 15,377
Shame on the first three to be advocating the case for education as a business. Because the idea of importing students as a source of funding is exactly that.
Once this principle is allowed, why not change "as much as the market can bear" from the local students? Why not sell academic studies favorable to the buyers wishes? Funding is good and should be the priority, right? Or wrong?
The time has come when all things, including science, are to fall withing the realm of commerce. We have our time of general corruption and universal venality, and what passes itself as "left" defending it!
EnglishEdward may not be an expert on education, but his instincts are right when he distrusts the experts who speak about their own interests. And I take satisfaction in seeing that kind of attitude more and more now. We have had too many years of "experts" busy with defending their own privileged positions under cover of sanctimonious platitudes that everybody is supposed to agree with. They became a plague across the world. Are people supposed to be able to think for themselves, or not? Is not the whole rationale behind democracy that the common citied is allowed to vote, recognized as capable of voting, to influence policy?
Experts are welcome to present their opinions. And are valuable and should be informative. But exercising peer pressure to force people to just accept technocratic rule by experts has no place in a democracy.
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Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Can't blame people for making the best of a bad situation. Principle can be a fine rope to hang yourself by, but most prefer to keep breathing.
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