Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[innonimatu]

Now that the voting is over I'll just point out to those who voter remain one more example of the treacherous nature of EU politics: the EU is set to approve CETA, a trade treaty with provisions to allow investors to sue states for "lost profits" due to state regulations, by simple majority in the Commission. Is is enough that a single country volunteers to support the Commission's ability to pass the treaty without consultation with each country's parliaments by declaring the treaty an "Eu only" affair. And Italy's government has just given them that support. This, btw, will set precedent to pass the TTIP later.

I hope you enjoy subsidizing your corporate masters.

Notice also the timing. The vote in the Commission was left for after this referendum. Wouldn't do to expose the EU's methods in a controversial matter just before the plebes got one of their rare chances at voting.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Business as usual.
Disappointed that the british publish was swayed by false tautology between Leave and MURDER. Cause really that is the campaign
Cameron - being the piglover he is- would have very likely felt happy with that gift from (let's say) Charon.

 

[Arakhor]

<double post>

 

[Arakhor]

I hope you enjoy subsidizing your corporate masters.

Have you forgotten that the Conservatives are in favour of this too or can you simply not resist digging at the EU?

Disappointed that the british publish was swayed by false tautology between Leave and MURDER. Cause really that is the campaign

I know you're pro-Leave, Kyriakos, but have you paid attention to anything the Leavers have been saying? It's not a vote to Remain, it's a vote for immigrants, rape gangs, immigrants, EU subjugation and immigration. Did I mention immigration?

 

[Kyriakos]

Have you forgotten that the Conservatives are in favour of this too or can you simply not resist digging at the EU?



I know you're pro-Leave, Kyriakos, but have you paid attention to anything the Leavers have been saying? It's not a vote to Remain, it's a vote for immigrants, rape gangs, immigrants, EU subjugation and immigration. Did I mention immigration?

I don't doubt the leaders of Leave are clowns and crooks. Yet the same is mostly true for the analogous leaders of Remain. (Corbyn might want to change the Eu for the better, but i do not see that happening. Cameron and his crew are just scum imo).

That doesn't need to include the bulk of voters for each side, though. (among which are not very well informed or intelligent, in both sides, as always, which isn't my issue. My issue was that the referendum was massively tainted.).

Anyway, let's see what happens in the future!

 

[Mise]

Pound has surged since the polls closed, presumably because the markets expect Remain to win.

 

[innonimatu]

Have you forgotten that the Conservatives are in favour of this too or can you simply not resist digging at the EU?

The point is that if you expect any protection whatsoever against them from the EU, you will be sorely disappointed.

What is being bypassed in this treaty is the ability of national parliaments to evaluate and reject it. That is being done because many of those parliaments were expected to refuse it. Now thanks to the EU's rules that possibility is off the table.
Trusting the EU to protect you - if you are a little eu citizen - is like trusting the mob. You will pay for protection, kiss the pinky ring, and still be abused at will by those who get to write the rules (laws and treaties) you're bound to. And they will be sheltered by a bureaucratic process sufficiently complicated to put them outside effective democratic control.

 

[Dachs]

The point is that if you expect any protection whatsoever against them from the EU, you will be sorely disappointed.

Did people expect that?

 

[hoplitejoe]

ggwp.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rage-remain-edge-it-brexit-ukip-a7098526.html

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Farage is hoping for remain to win. UKIP is nothing if the uk is out of the EU.

I imagine a lot of people in vote leave will feel like they could have won without Farage.

 

[Lexicus]

Cameron and his crew are just scum imo

There are degrees of scum, though.

 

[AlmostCivilized]

I disagree, I think it's sensible to judge political stuff (like referendum issues or candidates) based on their supporters. None of this stuff exists in a vacuum - 'the merits' of something can definitely include the, like, process of it. One of the major reasons I started out strongly supporting Bernie Sanders but became much more half-hearted about him over time, is that I realized lots of his supporters are about as odious as a lot of Trump supporters.

I can't quite put into words why I thought that mattered, but it did matter to me. An English guy I know recently said that he inclines toward Remain, but even had he inclined toward Leave he would not have been able to bring himself to vote for it due to how horrible he thought the Leave campaign was, with all the lies, racism, xenophobia and so forth.

You were sub-consciously thinking turns ahead when you left the Sanders camp.

It is generally safest to support crowds that are similar to yourself because the largest sub-group normally takes control after each gradual change in the political climate. If one left-wing movement is adopted, a subset of its supporters press on for further change, while other subsets will draw the line and support other changes. In this way the composition of a crowd can indicate where a certain movement is heading.

The referendum scenario is different because both outcomes require the entire super-set of the population to re-position themselves.

In the event of change, entirely new policy ideas that were not previously discussed would likely emerge along with new political champions. I suspect many mainstream party politicians would probably emerge as pro-immigration and pro-EEA candidates if there were a Leave win. The referendum is not a revolution.

Now I need to disclose and confess something important to me. Somewhere I have a diety account, and it exists because I once found this forum dangerously addictive. When I said goodbye earlier today I fully intended to be gone. Please report my posts. Please help me by asking moderators to ban me! Thank you

 

[Arakhor]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Farage is hoping for remain to win. UKIP is nothing if the uk is out of the EU.

Unsurprisingly, Farage couldn't resist talking about how great UKIP/he was.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

The point is that if you expect any protection whatsoever against them from the EU, you will be sorely disappointed.

What is being bypassed in this treaty is the ability of national parliaments to evaluate and reject it. That is being done because many of those parliaments were expected to refuse it. Now thanks to the EU's rules that possibility is off the table.
Trusting the EU to protect you - if you are a little eu citizen - is like trusting the mob. You will pay for protection, kiss the pinky ring, and still be abused at will by those who get to write the rules (laws and treaties) you're bound to. And they will be sheltered by a bureaucratic process sufficiently complicated to put them outside effective democratic control.

Why all this pathos? Isn't being at the very least somewhat neutral something desirable in a political discussion? Kissing the pinky ring and being abused? Really? Do you expect people to take you seriously with this kind of rhetoric?

 

[innonimatu]

I suspect many mainstream party politicians would probably emerge as pro-immigration and pro-EEA candidates if there were a Leave win. The referendum is not a revolution.

And we still have to wait for the results - though remain seems likely.

Now I need to disclose and confess something important to me. Somewhere I have a diety account, and it exists because I once found this forum dangerously addictive. When I said goodbye earlier today I fully intended to be gone. Please report my posts. Please help me by asking moderators to ban me! Thank you

Addictive like... civ? Just ration your comings and goings It is nice to have an old style internet forum still going strong, isn't it?

Did people expect that?

Some here mentioned that as their main (sole?) motive to back remain. Edit: that, the fear of having a conservative government even more neo-libreal than Cameron's.

Why all this pathos? Isn't being at the very least somewhat neutral something desirable in a political discussion?

If you have a political opinion, should you disguise it in order to seem neutral? I don't think so. Lack of clarity in politics, strategic voting and other such stuff causes political systems to stagnate: how can you hold a productive political discussion if you are misrepresenting your own position by trying to appear neutral? Only if your goal is to maintain the status quo and use political discussion as a distraction to keep those who would change anything busy just talking. And the problem with causing politics to stagnate is problems will start to accumulate and some day the barrier blocking discussion will break - with a huge pressure of unresolved issues suddenly being released.

I may be too sarcastic, true - someone should be.

 

[Arakhor]

You're probably referring to me and I can guarantee you that I never once mentioned TTIP as a reason to remain.

 

[Dachs]

Some here mentioned that as their main (sole?) motive to back remain. Edit: that, the fear of having a conservative government even more neo-libreal than Cameron's.

Did they? The only thing close to that that I can remember seeing in the referendum threads was that the EU and the Conservatives were really no worse than each other, so picking Leave as a way to avoid something that the Conservatives would do anyway wouldn't make sense.

 

[innonimatu]

Did they? The only thing close to that that I can remember seeing in the referendum threads was that the EU and the Conservatives were really no worse than each other, so picking Leave as a way to avoid something that the Conservatives would do anyway wouldn't make sense.

That was not the impression I got from statements such as "I also don't trust the Tories not to instantly try to mess everything up if they suddenly weren't bound by EU laws" or "granting Westminster sole control over British human rights would be a terrible idea". The idea,it seemed to me, was that the EU would be a restraint on the UK's government. I'm completely skeptical about that.

Anyway, let's wait for the results. Whether this EU will get a chance to keep plodding along zombie-like for a few more years, or be put to rest before this year is past. History won't end either way.

 

[Arakhor]

That was not the impression I got from statements such as "I also don't trust the Tories not to instantly try to mess everything up if they suddenly weren't bound by EU laws" or "granting Westminster sole control over British human rights would be a terrible idea". The idea,it seemed to me, was that the EU would be a restraint on the UK's government. I'm completely skeptical about that.

You're definitely talking about me. Good to see that I've made an impression, at least.

 

[HAND]

Newcastle and Sunderland have come in... It's looking very uncertain now... Very high score for Leave in Sunderland and Remain winning by only 1% in Newcastle.

Edit:

Still too early to draw conclusions though

 

[Arakhor]

Farage is already claiming that if Leave loses, it's because of the extension for electronic registrations. He simply does not know when to shut up.