Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[innonimatu]

Absolutely, but that would be difficult since all that regional funding (as part of the legendary £350m) was promised to be paid into the NHS each week.

You should consider the possibility that people voted for their own reasons and not because one repellent dude made a statement. Can't you understand that you are demeaning a majority of your own countrymen, depicting them as "puppets" who must have been manipulated by one guy whom you're promoted to the position of bogeyman?

People have agency, they think by themselves, and deceitful promises, threats, etc were made by both sides involved in this campaign. You don't see the Leave voters complaining still about how people voted remain because they were lied to, do you? Be a man, dammit! You don't have to change your own opinion of the EU, or of the UK's future, but you should accept that a majority has voted in a different way and make the best of it, rather than waste your time in denial. Other political battles lie ahead, this one was done.

Perhaps you could post in good faith and actually mention a European product?

This is an example of fallacious argument just for the sake of serving your denial. You know that there are both products made in the UK, and products not made in the UK, and that the EU regulations situation applied to both, and now will one have to apply to those made for export to the EU. You know what I mean, and that the example, and joke, I made was meant to show that there is a group of products (not just imported products) for which the change is real. For a simple simple, the UK might decide to import american cars that don't conform to EU regulations, rather than French or German cars. If you must have "european" products for your example, it can import russian products and not care about selective embargoes decreed in Brussels, deciding instead by itself what to enbargo or not. Mind you, I'm using that example because for the time being the EU still has its tentacles spread over most of western and central Europe - but Europe is not the world and the EU is not looking likely to last for a thousand years.

 

[Arakhor]

What has any of that got to do with the fact that the Government cannot possibly continue regional funding and pay the promised sum into the NHS with the same EU treasure-pot? If you think people are angry now, there's more than enough occasions hovering in the future for both sides to get angry all over again.

 

[Takhisis]

You could buy Icelandic bananas.

 

[Dachs]

Apropos of nothing in particular, Channel 4 recently showed a letter purporting to be written by a master about Nigel Farage from 1981, when he was at Dulwich College.

You will recall that at the recent, and lengthy, meeting about the selection of prefects, the remark by a colleague that Farage was "a fascist, but that was no reason why he would not make a good prefect" invoked considerable reaction from members of the Common Room. Another colleague, who teaches the boy, described his publicly professed racist and neo-fascist views; and he cited a particular incident in which Farage was so offensive to a boy in his set, that he had to be removed from the lesson. This master stated his view that that behaviour was precisely why the boy should not be made a prefect. Yet another colleague described how, at a CCF camp organized by the College, Farage and others had marched through a quiet Sussex village very late at night shouting Hitler-youth songs; and when it was suggested by a master that boys who expressed such views "don't really mean them", the College Chaplain himself commented that, on the contrary, in his experience views of that kind expressed by boys of that age are deep-seated, and are meant.

Food for thought!

When I watched Boris Johnson's speech he seemed disappointed. Is it possible that his objective was to wear out Cameron's support so as to take over the Consrvative Party and become PM without having to wait for 2020, but thinking all the time that he wouldn't have to deal with the exit from the European Union? I just have the feeling that Cameron might have taken him somewhere out of the limelight and told him ‘You broke it, you fix it, Boris old chap, it's me off for a tot of whisky and an early night, ta-ta!’. Just a feeling, mind you.

Considering the amount of politicians and even regular voters who were pro-Leave but who appeared surprised and dismayed by the Leave victory, I'd say the whole affair seems to have been thought as some yet another contest in hypocrisy and rhetorical populism, with lots of claims to appear as a champion of the people, but made only because thinking it would fail and they could continue to blame the EU without changing the status quo. Basically, the same thing that Cameron did.

Well, it blew up in their faces, now they have to actually take responsability, and it's obvious none of them had any kind of actual plan about it.

I think both of these are more or less right. Johnson and Gove didn't really want the vote to succeed, because that would end their ability to posture about the issue. They were columnists before they were politicians. They liked to make a big stink about an issue and ride that to popularity, but never once had to deal with the fallout. ("Not having a plan" also adequately describes Gove's omnishambles of an education policy.) So they didn't have a plan in the eventuality of Brexit winning. That's the thing about pundits: they can get away with criticism and no plan.

But, in the event that Brexit did succeed, I think that they assumed Cameron would be actually implementing the decision. Before the referendum, he seemed to have indicated that he'd have tried to invoke Article 50 the day after the vote, if it came up Leave. But instead Cameron stalled on Article 50 and resigned, meaning that Boris especially might be screwed. Either he avoids the leadership contest, which would arguably be political suicide and would certainly be against his own instinct to seek out attention wherever and whenever he can find it. Or he throws his hat into the ring and campaigns for the premiership, and wins, meaning that he's the one who's stuck implementing the Brexit, and the one stuck with most of the blame if it goes pear-shaped. His best shot is somebody beating him in the leadership contest, I think, which is hard to imagine since he's made himself the Chosen One for the Euroskeptic wing of the Tories and just won a major referendum.

When did Corbyn last say he supported Chavez and his policies? A quick google search turned up an article from the Telegraph that managed to avoid quoting Corbyn once in an article in theory about Corbyn's policies.

As somebody who genuinely doesn't know anything about either side of this argument, and who is not predisposed to like or dislike Corbyn, I would also like to know about this.

 

[innonimatu]

Race to the bottom : lowering of taxes to attract corporation headquarters leading to your neighbors lowering theres to be even more attractive leading to a huge loss for everyone.

Corporate tax rates in Western Europe were way higher before there was an EU that now with the EU. That alone shows that the EU is not an answer to the "race to the bottom": it failed to prevent it. And raises the reasonable question of whether it may be an enabler of that race.

Tobin tax : small (0.001% or something) tax on all financial transactions to slow down the constant automated microtransactions that are plaguing our economy. Essentially a way to restrain the financial sector, except the UK refused it categorically and the EU ended up not doing it

There is no intrinsic barrier to a country applying a financial transaction tax on its own. Sweden did it for a decade or so. An EU would thus be unnecessary for that, and in fact it is currently the EU that is blocking (because of the financial regulatory powers it already claimed and the whole "free market inside the EU issue) the ability of individual member states to pass such a tax on their own initiative. That the EU must become involved for Tobin tax to be passed is a consequence of an EU existing as a free trade area for services.

I think both of these are more or less right. Johnson and Gove didn't really want the vote to succeed, because that would end their ability to posture about the issue. They were columnists before they were politicians. They liked to make a big stink about an issue and ride that to popularity, but never once had to deal with the fallout. ("Not having a plan" also adequately describes Gove's omnishambles of an education policy.) So they didn't have a plan in the eventuality of Brexit winning. That's the thing about pundits: they can get away with criticism and no plan.

Johnson and Gove and a disaster in the making for a future government. It's not surprising that some of the more level-headed conservatives writing on the media, like Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, were calling for a government of national unity led by a Labour figure. Not Corbyn, he wouldn't go that far but given the options now I believe that even the most serious conservatives would rather have a PM Corbyn handling the issue than the Johnson & Gove team.
It's up to the Parliament now. I do believe that they'll end up picking someone competent - not those two - and getting through this whole situation quite well. They know the stakes are unusually high. Forcing an early election is a likely solution.

I get the feeling that the terminology isn't the same on both sides of the Atlantic. I understand "right-wing" as being nationalistic.

There is nationalism, and then there is exercise of power. The left, though internationalist in its aims, must face the fact that the exercise of power is done through national politics, and currently under democratic rules that accept nations (countries) as the political unit.
Thus those groups in the left that accept these rules must fight in that arena, before fighting on an international one. their constituencies in the democratic game of politics are national ones.

There are leftist groups in Europe that do not accept the nation as a political unit. Lately that disgraced former greek finance minister has been trying to build a new one for the EU. HE made some interesting proposals but, predictably, no one seems to care about him or the movement he's trying to create. I won't give my take in it here and now, but we could do a thread about it - if someone here cares!
There are also some groups that neither accept the nation as a political unit, nor democratic politics as a rule for the exercise of power. Those too produce (or rather, mostly recycle) some theories but have no real support anywhere.

The effective left that remains is national in scope, and in the past when the left in Europe changed people's life, it did it on a national level. It still seems the most viable path to do it. But that too could be arguer in other threads, we have at least one here about socialism, I believe.

Am I reading the reports correctly that Labour MPs are calling for Corbyn's position because he was not pro-EU enough? A majority of Labour voters supported Leave and Leave was hugely popular among the working class Labour is supposed to represent. I'm not sure why they think that embracing Remain more will magically lead them back to electoral success.

You are reading correctly, but the reports are not correct. Those MP want to oust him before he can oust them. The results of this referendum provide the necessary argument for the party leadership to back different candidates in the next election. Which is likely to come sooner that previously expected.

The blairite wing could tolerate Corbyn as an opposition leader for a couple of years, waiting for him to suffer some setback and them getting rid of him. With the resignation of the government and the conflict among the Tories the likelihood of a general election is now high - meaning that Corbyn suddenly became a threat to these MP. The knives are out.

 

[Mouthwash]

There is nationalism, and then there is exercise of power. The left, though internationalist in its aims, must face the fact that the exercise of power is done through national politics, and currently under democratic rules that accept nations (countries) as the political unit.
Thus those groups in the left that accept these rules must fight in that arena, before fighting on an international one. their constituencies in the democratic game of politics are national ones.

There are leftist groups in Europe that do not accept the nation as a political unit. Lately that disgraced former greek finance minister has been trying to build a new one for the EU. HE made some interesting proposals but, predictably, no one seems to care about him or the movement he's trying to create. I won't give my take in it here and now, but we could do a thread about it - if someone here cares!
There are also some groups that neither accept the nation as a political unit, nor democratic politics as a rule for the exercise of power. Those too produce (or rather, mostly recycle) some theories but have no real support anywhere.

The effective left that remains is national in scope, and in the past when the left in Europe changed people's life, it did it on a national level. It still seems the most viable path to do it. But that too could be arguer in other threads, we have at least one here about socialism, I believe.

Yes, I'm aware that nationalism can be left-wing. It's just that the Labor Party (and pretty much all of the left-wingers I know who aren't communists) seem to be fanatically committed to Remain. Hence, I found the comment about the British youth being right-wing odd.

Also, did that figure come from the actual results, or independent polling? If it's the former than it's entirely useless, since like 30% of young people didn't vote at all.

 

[Takhisis]

a) British youth being right-wing is odd? You have the traditional hooligans who follow Millwall England around, you also have a certain example in this very forum.

b) Thirty percent overall didn't vote.

 

[Mouthwash]

a) British youth being right-wing is odd? You have the traditional hooligans who follow Millwall England around,

I don't know what that is.

b) Thirty percent overall didn't vote.

My understanding is that the youth turnout was way lower than the rest.

 

[Dachs]

a) British youth being right-wing is odd? You have the traditional hooligans who follow Millwall England around, you also have a certain example in this very forum.

From what I understand, Lohrenswald called the British youth "right-wing" because they mostly voted Remain, which is a fairly idiosyncratic concept of "right-wing".

 

[sophie]

I don't know what that is.

Link to video.

These guys, only imagine them supporting the San Diego Chargers instead of the English equivalent of the New York Yankees.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree that there must be a unity gov in Britain currently. Not humans of the type BorisGovan

Seriously. A unity gov is needed. With serious people.

 

[luiz]

I'm struggling to see how a leftist revolutionary who took power in a military coup/mass demonstration is equitable to an elderly politician who is standard Old Labour, before Blair decided that saying whatever you want to win an election is an adequate replacement for a clear ideological position.

When did Corbyn last say he supported Chavez and his policies? A quick google search turned up an article from the Telegraph that managed to avoid quoting Corbyn once in an article in theory about Corbyn's policies.

Corbyn said he supported Chavez and his policies when Chavez died. He tweeted it. That's pretty late, isn't it?

Corbyn is associated with pretty much all unsavory leftist types in the world. He is the equivalent of those far-right politicians that have dinner parties with Holocaust deniers and mingle with dictators.

 

[Arwon]

This is a long and very bleak series of snapshots of things experienced in the UK since the Brexit vote

 

[Old Hippy]

Corbyn said he supported Chavez and his policies when Chavez died. He tweeted it. That's pretty late, isn't it?

Corbyn is associated with pretty much all unsavory leftist types in the world. He is the equivalent of those far-right politicians that have dinner parties with Holocaust deniers and mingle with dictators.

seriously?

when a leader of a country dies everyone tries to find something nice to say about who died, regardless of what they thought. Its bad manners to speak ill of the dead, and a tweet proves nothing about what he thought. after all he's politician and could be expected to lie anyway

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I am not that much in UK politics. But it seems obvious to me that this Farage guy is the typical fascist racist neo-nazi similar to Lepen, Trump and so many others, not a very interesting character. Boris Jhonson on the other hand looks like a phlegmatic British intelectual, like Churchill. He would make a nice substitute for Jeremy Clarckson in the new Top Gear instead of that pale guy with glasses.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I am not that much in UK politics. But it seems obvious to me that this Farage guy is the typical fascist racist neo-nazi similar to Lepen, Trump and so many others, not a very interesting character. Boris Jhonson on the other hand looks like a flematic British intelectual, like Churchill. He would make a nice substitute for Jeremy Clarckson in the new Top Gear instead of that guy with glasses.

Both seem like utter scum. Johnson even more so because he doesn't actually care, he just used the referendum as a weapon against Cameron.

 

[Kyriakos]

Boris is decidedly clownish, though. I don't think he can run a country. He barely can run his own self...

Also, he doesn't come across as an intellectual - at least not from his tv appearances i had seen. Maybe he is just a horrible public speaker, but i have to doubt he is privately some mastermind.
Gove is even worse.
And Farage belongs in some sitcom, not a government.
Edit:

Not that it matters, given Farage was just automatically placed as the new PM of Britain:


Link to video.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Well not a real intelectual like Noan Chomsky or Jurgen Habernas obviously, but a clever guy with some culture. He seems unable to take things too seriously, hardly a fanatic, and looks funny with that nonexistent hairstyle.

 

[FriendlyFire]

LOL ?
Like I said Voters decided to vote on EU immigration policy or lack of border controls over other concerns such as economics

View from Wales: town showered with EU cash votes to leave EU

In Ebbw Vale, with little immigration and perhaps more EU investment than any other UK small town, the sense of injustice is greater than the sum of the facts

“What’s the EU ever done for us?” Zak Kelly, 21, asks me this standing next to a brand new complex of buildings and facilities that wouldn’t look out of place in Canary Wharf. It’s not Canary Wharf, though, it’s Ebbw Vale, a former steel town of 18,000 people in the heart of the Welsh valleys, where 62% of the population – the highest proportion in Wales – voted Leave.

Even Kelly, who has just finished a training session on a brand new football pitch, backtracks slightly after asking that question. “Well, I know … they built all this,” he says, and motions his head at the impressive facilities that are all around us. “But we put in more money than we get out, don’t we?”

We’re standing on the site of the old steelworks, a toxic industrial wasteland left rotting when the plant, once the biggest in Europe, finally closed in 2002. It’s now “The Works” – a flagship £350m regeneration project funded by the EU redevelopment fund and home to the £33.5m Coleg Gwent, where some of the 29,000 Welsh apprenticeships the European Social Fund pays for help young people learn a trade. Add in a new £30m railway line and £80m improvement to the Heads of the Valley road from other pots of EU money, and the town centre has just received £12.2m for various upgrades and improvements.

Ebbw Vale, left devastated when the steelworks closed, has had more European money poured into it than perhaps any other small town in Britain. But according to the figures Kelly heard, “we get out £7m a year from the EU and we put in £19m”. Anyway, he says, “it was time for a change”.

And change is now coming. But what it will mean for an area dependent on inward investment and with the highest unemployment in Wales – nearly 40% of people are either unemployed or not available for work – has yet to be seen

“There was only one word people had on their mind: immigration. They didn’t look at the facts at all.”

Are there any immigrants in Ebbw Vale? “No! Hardly any. And the ones there are are all working, all contributing. It’s just … illogical. I just don’t think people looked at the facts at all.”

It’s a town with almost no immigrants that voted to get the immigrants out. A town that has been showered with EU cash that no longer wants to be part of the EU. A town that holds some of the clues, perhaps, in understanding quite how spectacularly the Remain message failed to land. There’s a sense of injustice that is far greater than the sum of the facts, and the political landscape has fractured and split. Zak Kelly says that many of his friends, in what is Nye Bevan’s old constituency, voted Ukip.

All around town are signs marked with the EU flag for the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone. The website notes that as an EU tier 1 area, “companies can benefit from the highest level of grant aid in the UK”. Earlier this year the sports car company TVR announced it would build a factory and create 150 jobs there. Will it still come? Will the Circuit of Wales, a multimillion-pound motor racing circuit a private company has been proposing to build on the town’s outskirts creating 6,000 jobs? Will the £1.8bn of EU cash promised to Wales for projects until 2020 still arrive? And what happens after? Will central government really give more money to Ebbw Vale than the EU has?

Or as Michael Sheen, the Welsh-born actor from Port Talbot, tweeted: “Wales votes to trust a new and more rightwing Tory leadership to invest as much money into its poorer areas as EU has been doing.”

“It is what it is,” says Kelly. “We’ll see, won’t we?”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sh-votes-leave-ebbw-vale?CMP=soc_567#comments

 

[Akka]

In the meantime, it seems that the proud democratic UK who wanted to take back its destiny from the undemocratic EU, is dragging its feet and seems more and more trying to ignore the referendum results, while the EU is actually pressing for implementing it. Even the pro-Brexit leaders don't seem very interested in actually doing what they campaigned for.

The irony, as with everyhting related to the UK vs EU, is thick as concrete.