Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[metalhead]

But the result of racists being more outright with their hate is more of an collateral damage. If Scotland voted for it's independence, I don't think it a good reason to vote for "stay" that the nazi-Scotts would vote "leave".

I'm not so sure about that. It depends on what kind of country you want to have. For me, defeating Donald Trump is as much about not wanting xenophobia, racism, and ignorance to be the new model for American society, as it is about ensuring an unqualified man doesn't gain the presidency.

At some level, who (or what) you vote for reflects the values you believe are important, and society will react to that according to what values are reflected in election results. It's surely not the only consideration when voting, but I think it's something that people need to own as a natural extension of their votes.

 

[AdrienIer]

Are Tories Tea party conservative or just conservative? I assume that European conservatives do not have any of the religious overtones we see here.

The right wing in France and England is (to my knowledge) only slightly religious. In Spain and Italy it's very different. Picture religious nuts but instead of being evangelical fanatics they're just "normal" Catholics (it doesn't change the policies, just the tone). Being right wing in Europe is usually more about being for less worker protection and more entrepreneurial spirit.

Many high ranking members of the Spanish PP are members of the Opus Dei. That's pretty scary actually.

So Labour would align with Obama?

I guess so, maybe even a little to his right (except for Corbyn of course). Same is true with the current governments in France and Italy, and with the Spanish PSOE and German social democrats. But unlike Obama they've made a mess of their time in power recently. There are residual "real" socialist strongholds but even here in France it's unlikely that they'll regain power soon. Unless Corbyn pulls a miracle in the UK.

Is there a European equivalent to our Libertarian?

No. Even the anarchist movement (which has the same roots) has vastly different ideals. Libertarianism in the American sense IMO stems from the great plains myth/era where settlers could live in almost total isolation from a governmental body (or so the myth goes, those railroads didn't build themselves).

 

[Kyriakos]

Doesn't he say "Chers collègues".

That totally ruined it. William Wallace would not say that in this tone (although he does speak some french in the movie ).
This sounded more like a battle cry.

Tories are the regular conservatives.

Farage = Trump.

I don't think there's any significant libertarian party in Europe.

Boris looks hugely more like Trump. Farage is more of a brit sitcom character

 

[Dachs]

On fiscal matters more or less. On immigration, the UKIP are more like the Tea Party.

Kind of. UKIP is more open about it, but the Tories still have a sizable wing of frothing xenophobes and racists themselves. As Johnson's efforts to enlist supporters in the Commons show, many of those racists are MPs.

The FDP in Germany has been voted out of the Reichsstag, so maybe they go loony and embrace anarcho-capitalism to get attention (or something like that ).

As much as AfD would like it to be the Reichstag, it is still actually the Bundestag.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ian Duncan Smith is likely even worse than Boris/Gove.

 

[dutchfire]

Are Tories Tea party conservative or just conservative? I assume that European conservatives do not have any of the religious overtones we see here.

So Labour would align with Obama?

Is there a European equivalent to our Libertarian?

I am not sure we're supposed to talk about Europe in a thread about the UK anymore

Anyway, there is actually quite a lot of variety in Europe. Obviously, gun rights are less of an issue here. Some of the right-wing populists are pretty anti-Israel (with anti-Semitic undertones, see Front National in France) whereas others are very pro-Israel, with anti-Muslim undertones (PVV in the Netherlands). Their dislike for Europe and nativist sentiment unites them.

The level of Christian influence varies a lot. The PVV was founded only recently in the very secular Netherlands, it is pro-gay and not anti-abortion (as far as I know) and even uses these as examples of our enlightened culture wrt Islam. On the other hand, many countries have parties in the Christian right. The Netherlands has two small, conservative, Christian parties, Tovergieter mentioned them. The Dutch parliamentary system is quite friendly to small parties. Germany, on the other hand, has a system that benefits big parties, and their Christian party CDU/CSU is very main stream but is also the biggest party in the country. The new German AfD is not explicitly religious, but they do seem to have some very anti-abortion people, along with any other kind of right wing nut you'd expect to see in the USA.
France and the UK [excluding Northern Ireland] don't have big explicitly Christian parties, their system is also designed to be a 2/2.5 party system.

Belgium is an entirely different can of worms, since Flanders, Wallonia (and the German part) all have their own left, right and Christian parties, and no-one can keep track. I don't enough about the other countries to really say a lot. When you get to Eastern Europe, you can find conservative nationalist communists

 

[W|M]

Iain Duncan Smith is likely even worse than Boris/Gove.

And conveniently enough, IDS reminds me of IBS

 

[Takhisis]

I wonder how they're planning to make one. Most of the experts in EU law who could contribute will likely politely decline to participate in such an endeavour.

There's always someone who can lie back and think of England, right? I am certain that key figures in the current Cabinet have read politics, economics and/or law at some rather prestigious universities.

just heard Farage's speech in the EU, he called them all a bunch of lazy B's who have never worked, to paraphrase him then said he hoped they would come to a fair outcome for the UK

interesting times, must call for an interesting negotiating technique

Spoiler :

Link to video.

I like how Mr. Faradge says that most of the MEPs have never had a real job… ‘or worked in business’. He admits he's never had a real job either.

I mean if I sell a breakfast cereal that is called "Candy-coated sugar-bombs" and I find that people will buy it as long as I keep the actual sugar content low or at least comparable to all the other cereals, why would I pump up the sugar content just to stay true to the name of the brand?So like how the "Democratic People's Republic" is anything but?

How can something coated in candy not be a sugar bomb?

For the ignorant of us in the western hemisphere, please place Tories and labour (and Cameron et al for that matter) on a L/R scale that shows how they align with the L/R we see in US politics. I'm at a bit of a loss to know who the good guys actually are.

Thanks.

Cameron's a Mitt Romney/Bush type. Born rich, doesn't understand why the poor disagree with trickle-down economics.

Boris looks hugely more like Trump. Farage is more of a brit sitcom character

That explains it. Clowns are unfunny.

 

[classical_hero]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36643891

No good dirty racists.

 

[Dachs]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36643891

No good dirty racists.

I'm gonna guess you only read the headline and ignored the last third of the article.

 

[Atticus]

I think Hero has got point there. The article proves without a doubt that no "leave" voter had any racist motivation.

 

[Takhisis]

I thought black people couldn't be racist…?

 

[Atticus]

They're the worst kind of racists: racists against the white man. The only true minority in the modern pc-world.

 

[classical_hero]

I'm gonna guess you only read the headline and ignored the last third of the article.

They were pretty much split on the issue, but the point is that some Africans votes to leave, but according to the logic of some, they are racists for doing that and xenophobic.

 

[Bootstoots]

This is an emotive way of looking at it, but given two bad options, choosing the one that is worse for you isn't what the working class should be doing.

As a leftist who is not residing in Britain, I don't have particularly strong opinions about Brexit, though I think it's not a good idea. Yes, Remain falls in line with the interests of the global political and economic elites, but as opposed to what? The interests of local political and economic elites who support Leave (the self-serving likes of BoJo, Farage and businessmen who want volatility and less regulation)?

If the working class is not organised or, worse, is being attracted by would-be fascists, then the choice of abandoning the existing order at a larger cost to themselves is probably a bad one. I think the EU is more-or-less a neoliberal order that is antithetical to the collective power of the working class, but to then go over and further the cause of hitlerites and libertarian cowboys, for lack of other options, is the opposite of helping themselves. I can be pretty radical, but I really cannot get behind purely self-destructive choices no matter what the motivations maybe. No leftist would rather have the far right take over, unless they don't care about the human cost of such a misadventure.

It's one thing if these working class voters vote for the likes of Corbyn as well (some do, but I suspect not that many) - I see that there are traditional leftists still, but to whom are the working class voters looking? UKIP or the Leave Tories? Eh. If you want proper representation, then look to those who would do that, not lash out blindly at foreigners and supra-national institutions. Blairites are not the entirety of the British Left, but people have chosen to be blind to that fact.

I'm not arguing that the disillusioned working class types are making a particularly rational decision when they vote for the far right. Of course it depends on which populist or far right party we're talking about - a party that is big on welfare chauvinism, like say the Danish People's Party, may be a reasonable choice purely from the self-interest of a native working-class voter. In the case of UKIP and UKIP-like Tories, probably not - they're influenced by libertarianism to some extent, and the claim about funding the NHS with money that would have gone to the EU was a lie not just because of the inflated numbers, but because they didn't seem to have any real intention of reversing Cameron's policy of damaging it with unnecessary austerity. Trump is the same way - if elected, it's highly unlikely he'll deliver any real benefits to his working-class voters, although at least he won't attempt to privatize Social Security like mainstream Republicans.

A big part of the motivation for voting for the far right is to hit back at the political, academic, and business elites that have led to the stagnation or slow decline of working and lower middle class fortunes. The anti-intellectualism we see isn't just because the voters are stupid, it's because those intellectuals and experts have put together a program that is making their lives worse. Upper and upper-middle class liberal culture openly disdains the white working class, and the parties that used to fight for labor rights are now controlled by smug technocrats and urban liberal types who actively encourage continued globalization and automation. It would be better if a moderately left-wing populist party could appear (and I do mean moderate populist, not Chavismo), but that doesn't seem to be happening to anything like the same degree as the rise of the far right.

The bigotry is very real and increasing, of course. This is in large part because the demographics of Western nations have changed dramatically since c. 1970, with very liberal immigration policies. I'm personally mostly in favor of high immigration, but it's not hard to see how this will create serious tensions and divisions within real communities. But simmering resentment turned into a full boil after the economic crash (which always increases nativism), the EU's subsequent self-inflicted double-dip recession, and the disastrous handling of the migrant crisis combined with an increase in Islamist attacks. Nobody except the populist-to-far right have been willing to say that immigration should be significantly reduced and people who say this are called bigots, even though this now appears to be the majority opinion across Europe and the US. The result is an increase in support for the far right and an increase in bigotry now that they've found a group where their opinions are encouraged.

 

[Akka]

They're the worst kind of racists: racists against the white man. The only true minority in the modern pc-world.

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or not here.

 

[Lexicus]

Well, it's a simple fact that bigotry is the source of the belief that curbing immigration, rather than organizing with immigrants against the capitalists, is going to solve the working class' problems.

I generally don't accept uncritically the assertions of orthodox Marxism, but they've got racism getting in the way of class politics almost exactly right. The bosses are quick to pit one group of workers against another (bonus points if the groups speak different languages), and the only way to fight it is with solidarity.

 

[Takhisis]

They were pretty much split on the issue, but the point is that some Africans votes to leave, but according to the logic of some, they are racists for doing that and xenophobic.

I was under the impression that those who are allowed to vote are British citizens.

 

[FriendlyFire]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36643891

No good dirty racists.

Did you read your own article

It was also feared that with Albania, Turkey, Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro waiting to join the EU, the African worker could tumble to the bottom of the working pile.
And this argument was put across persistently.

Yet the Africans awoke to a post-Brexit Britain that was as full of prejudice to the non-EU citizen as to the EU citizen.

They were pretty much split on the issue, but the point is that some Africans votes to leave, but according to the logic of some, they are racists for doing that and xenophobic.

Iam sure they are in for a rude awakening right now

 

[luiz]

Well, it's a simple fact that bigotry is the source of the belief that curbing immigration, rather than organizing with immigrants against the capitalists, is going to solve the working class' problems.

I generally don't accept uncritically the assertions of orthodox Marxism, but they've got racism getting in the way of class politics almost exactly right. The bosses are quick to pit one group of workers against another (bonus points if the groups speak different languages), and the only way to fight it is with solidarity.

Oh God, Marxists.

Look, pal, bosses are all for open immigration and for that matter strongly supported remaining in the EU, specially the big bosses and those of the financial sector.

The people feeling the pain of unrestricted immigration, and inflating the ranks of the far-right, are from your beloved "working class".

I assume you haven't the slightest clue what is going on in Europe, but the evil capitalists are actually fighting pretty hard against the rise of the far right. Last year in France, when it seemed certain Marine Le Pen would take the North and Marion Le Pen would take PACA, businessmen of both regions ran a massive campaign against them, pretty much threatening people to quit their regions if the far-right won. And they managed to beat the polls and defeat what seemed like a certain FN victory in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais.

The capitalists you hate so much do much more to fight the far-right than useless Marxists who only serve to irritate people.

We're in 2016, not 1886. Try updating yourself a bit.