Is it bad to be patriotic?

[Carras Dad]

 

[MobBoss]

...Wait, what? Are we reading the same thread here?

Mise suggested that patriotism was incompatible with Christianity.

Actually he said 'being proud of ones nation is spitting in the face of God'. I merely pointed out the various definitions of pride that the Hebrews actually used, and continued to point out that there is a big difference in pride of ones nation (like in the example I gave) and being arrogant or intolerant about it.

You want to take exception to that? /oh well.

You said that this was not merely false, but "silly". I contended that many Christian thinkers would not regard it as "silly", but would take it very seriously indeed.

And that is an appeal to authority. You know...a logical fallacy in countering my factual point.

Well MobBoss, I'm sure Peter will let you off on the technicality.

Actually, Mise, I think there is value in actually knowing and studying what words actually mean biblically as opposed to simply thinking the English translation is simply that.

No technicality. Pride in our language has a much more broad meaning that it did to ancient hebrews. That's simply a fact. You can either accept that or not. /shrug.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Judge not!

You mean as you do in nearly every thread in here?

But thats not anything more than I would expect you of all people to say. Hell, Form, anyone a step to the right of you is an extremist in your eyes so no suprise there.

Again, you show you don't pay attention at all to my posts while continuing to deliberately mischaracterize my opinions.

Actually, Mise, I think there is value in actually knowing and studying what words actually mean biblically as opposed to simply thinking the English translation is simply that.

No technicality. Pride in our language has a much more broad meaning that it did to ancient hebrews. That's simply a fact. You can either accept that or not. /shrug.

Yet many religious scholars obviously disagree with your own personal opinions regarding your own interpretations of the Bible, which you continue to claim are "facts".

 

[MobBoss]

You mean as you do in virtually every thread in here?

See? That's judging.

Again, you show you don't pay attention at all to my posts while continuing to falsely mischaracterize my opinions.

My comment there was neither of those - I was paying attention, and my comment was my opinion, not a mischaracterization of yours. But dont let that stop the waaambulance from driving on down the road.

Yet many religious scholars obviously disagree with your own personal opinions regarding your own interpretations of the Bible which you continue to claim are "facts".

This isnt a personal intrepretation. Its straight out of Strong's Concordance. Again, do you want the links? Be more than happy to provide them if you think i'm just making this up. I do love proving you wrong you know. Please ask.

 

[Domen]

Pride is a deadly sin. Jesus taught us to love thy neighbour. Being proud of one's nation is spitting in the face of God.

[[ Suddenly patriotism becomes very popular among atheists ]]

that belonging to a group by the accident of their birth makes them somehow more worthy.

I do not belong to a group by the accident of my birth - I could change my affiliation any moment if only I wanted.

But belonging to a group by your own choice - does make you worthy - whether you stay or change it:

(sometimes even very w$o$r$t$h$y):

 

[Mise]

Actually, Mise, I think there is value in actually knowing and studying what words actually mean biblically as opposed to simply thinking the English translation is simply that.

No technicality. Pride in our language has a much more broad meaning that it did to ancient hebrews. That's simply a fact. You can either accept that or not. /shrug.

Hey there's no need to argue with me, I'm just telling you what the bible says. If you want to quibble over definitions when you get to the pearly gates, that's your choice. Take it up with the big man, MB.

Personally, I wouldn't like there to be any asterisks on my permanent record. I don't want anyone going down the list and seeing "Lust, nope. Envy, nope. Greed, nope. Pride, nope* (*-well he is really rather patriotic, but to be fair, we didn't explicitly say that you weren't allowed to be proud of your country, so maybe we should let him off?)."

 

[Leoreth]

[[ Suddenly patriotism becomes very popular among atheists ]]

How can you spit in the face of something that doesn't exist?

 

[Formaldehyde]

This isnt a personal intrepretation. Its straight out of Strong's Concordance. Again, do you want the links? Be more than happy to provide them if you think i'm just making this up. I do love proving you wrong you know. Please ask.

Again, you show you don't really have any sort of grasp at all regarding the difference between opinion and fact:

Strong's Concordance

Since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context. The use of Strong's numbers does not consider figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, common phrases, cultural references, references to historical events, or alternate meanings used by those of the time period to express their thoughts in their own language at the time. As such, professionals and amateurs alike must consult a number of contextual tools to reconstruct these cultural backgrounds. Many scholarly Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (e.g., Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Dictionary, and Vine's Bible Dictionary) also use Strong's numbers for cross-referencing, encouraging hermeneutical approaches to study.

Strong's Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong's numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written.

It obviously comes down to your own interpretation and personal opinion, which is clearly different from many religious scholars based on the opinions you continue to post in this forum. You don't have the proper credentials to even pretend to be able to properly translate the passages yourself. That is unless you have advanced degrees in ancient languages and literature you haven't yet divulged.

And good luck "proving" anybody else's opinions "wrong", much less my own which you typically misinterpret despite them being in English.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

I love how every big deal war/action movie has their last battle turn from organized combat to a general brawl just so the main two peeps can have a be all end all punch out

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I love how every big deal war/action movie has their last battle turn from organized combat to a general brawl just so the main two peeps can have a be all end all punch out

I thought the final battle in Batman 3 sucked too.

 

[aronnax]

I consider myself a cultural patriot.

Although I hold a Singaporean passport, both my parents are Singaporean and I was born and raised in Singapore, I am still Han Chinese.
Despite the Chinese government being an oppressive, restrictive and abusive government, the country that it rules over still has a strong cultural attachment to me.

Although my countrymen may disagree, I consider China's history my history and China's struggles, my struggles as well. People seem to think that the anthem of the People's Republic of China is a Communist song and that people who sing it are ardent communist or supporters of the CCP. But it isn't. The writer may had be a member of the Chinese Communist Party but the lyrics are something that is politically neutral but culturally expressive of one's affection for the cultural homeland.

There is one line that goes: "中华民族到了最危险的时候" or "The Chinese people are now at a most perilous time". This line always swells me up with cultural patriotism because it refers to the threat of an aggressive Japan against a weak and fractionated China, abused and exploited by European powers in the 1930s. And the song goes on to tell the Chinese people to rise up and fight against those who threaten their country, their culture, their history and their people. And despite being Singaporean, at least three of those things apply to me.

It's no different from "Aux armes, citoyens, Formez vos bataillons, Marchons, marchons!" or "Stringiamci a coorte, siam pronti alla morte. Siam pronti alla morte, l'Italia chiamò!"

The song makes me proud to be (culturally) Chinese. It makes me a Chinese Patriot. It makes me proud of the Chinese people and of China. And I see nothing bad or wrong about it.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

I thought the final battle in Batman 3 sucked too.

WHOOOOAAAA, lets not get ahead of ourselves here. That's a comic book film, which almost by definition must end in a punch'em up. As opposed to say The Patriot, the Hobbit, Troy and the like.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The final fight still sucked and was contrived in exactly the way you described. Kind of like the rest of the movie.

I hate LotR, so let's not go there. But the Patriot was genius front to back.

Troy, meh.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

The final fight still sucked and was contrived in exactly the way you described. Kind of like the rest of the movie.

I hate LotR, so let's not go there. But the Patriot was genius front to back.

Troy, meh.

!?!?!?!?!?!?!WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!??!

Rises' "sucked and was contrived"? Are you mistaking those words with epic and in-depth?

The Patriot perfect? You do realize that the movie is a blatant ripoff of Shenandoah and we replaced Confederate Stewart with Revolutionary Gibson, right? Cornwallis turns into a buffoon and not the competent military leader he actually was and the way that movie occurs makes no sense in terms of combat in that era. And evidently 24 travel rules apply to 18th century South Carolina as well. I like the movie but come on!

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I didn't say patriot was perfect, but now that you have I can agree with that sentiment.

Rises was marginally better than most comic book movies, which isn't saying much. I have no idea where you think it deserves being call 'epic', but to each his own I guess.
Truthfully it was terribad

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

I didn't say patriot was perfect, but now that you have I can agree with that sentiment.

Rises was marginally better than most comic book movies, which isn't saying much. I have no idea where you think it deserves being call 'epic', but to each his own I guess.
Truthfully it was terribad

Ok correction, I mistook "genius" for "perfect". Why do you think the Patriot is perfect then?

"Marginally better than most comic book movies", you do realize that at least half, if not more, comic book movies are duds right. Batman Forever is a marginally good movie. I know you're just trolling now, but why do you think its terribad?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Dude I am not trolling, just having fun. I really don't think the Patriot is perfect, I just played along with you. It has obvious flaws but worked brilliantly as a stirring tribute to patriotism that riled up the public and sold tickets. That counts for a lot for me. I thought that Rises is terribad (and as bad as other comic book movies) because

Spoiler :

on second thought it doesn't matter. I don't feel like having an extended argument over what amounts to a difference of opinion unless you're actually curious to hear my opinion instead of simply trying to lock me into mortal post combat over batman.

 

[MobBoss]

Hey there's no need to argue with me, I'm just telling you what the bible says.

No. You're telling me what you think it says completely without regard to how many words are used for it in ancient Hebrew or how broad the word is in our language.

That's what you are doing.

If you want to quibble over definitions when you get to the pearly gates, that's your choice. Take it up with the big man, MB.

There is no 'quibbling' here. You may not think so, but words actually have meaning, Mise. And you make the same error that anyone else does that has no desire to dig deeper into the actual meaning of the words of the bible. Our language translates about 4 or 5 different Hebrew words, each with specific meaning into one lump word we understand as 'pride'. We do the same thing with 'love', and a whole bunch of other words as well.

Simply, you are the one in error here, not me.

Personally, I wouldn't like there to be any asterisks on my permanent record. I don't want anyone going down the list and seeing "Lust, nope. Envy, nope. Greed, nope. Pride, nope* (*-well he is really rather patriotic, but to be fair, we didn't explicitly say that you weren't allowed to be proud of your country, so maybe we should let him off?)."

Tend to the plank in your eye ther Mise rather than the splinter in mine. I mean, you're not even a Christian arent you?

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

No I would like to hear your Rises reasons. Batman is my favorite comic hero and I've actually had many debates over Rises and even though I'm not that big of a Nolan fan I always come off as a big defender of him for some reason lol. If you want we could make another thread to talk and keep this on OT.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Is that in the dictionary somewhere?

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

edit: I don't see any real difference between nationalism and patriotism, other than that nationalism has a more political undertone.

editedit: It might be slightly different for people like Catalans and Scots who don't have their own country.

That is nationalism, not patriotism. And even then, usually a form of ethnic nationalism.

I don't really have a problem with civic nationalism. A people ought to be proud of the society they have built, if it deserves it. I don't think any of that is inherent, either by birth or by design, though.