Is it bad to be patriotic?

[hobbsyoyo]

No I would like to hear your Rises reasons. Batman is my favorite comic hero and I've actually had many debates over Rises and even though I'm not that big of a Nolan fan I always come off as a big defender of him for some reason lol. If you want we could make another thread to talk and keep this on OT.

I will try and get back to you after homework. I meant to put something on it in the movies thread after I read Oruc's post but forgot. So i'll put something there later.

Apologies if I don't get to it tonight, I have to do mechanics of materials so I can accurately describe the correct alloy to use as both a flag topper and people/horse spearer in a pinch.

I thought Batman 2 rocked fyi, so it's not just my disdain of superhero movies that made me hate 3. In fact my love of 2 got me to watch 3 in the first place.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Comrades! Comrade Stalin had already given you the answer to the question. In his unfortunately not released at the time resolution regarding the Pankratova affair, Comrade Stalin already had given all the definitions.

Patriotism means realizing that your nation can only prosper when other nations do. That means that Patriotism is compatible with Internationalism. In fact, Internationalism itself springs from the patriotic desire to liberate your nation from the capitalistic oppression. A patriot feels shame and hatred for the bourgeoisie of his nation, that exploits most of that nation's populace. When the bourgeoisie waves flags, it's only trying to deceive the masses by presenting themselves as "patriotic", whereas they are nothing but! In reality, they oppress the nation.

Nationalism is the opposite of internationalism, and thus, of patriotism. Nationalism promotes destructive feelings of national supremacy, which results in pride for your own bourgeois rulers. In reality, such nationalism is rejected by the true patriots as damaging his nation.

National-nihilism is a trend that seeks to bash and paint the nation's history black. National-nihilism demeans and mocks the heroes of the people though the ages. Like Nationalism, National-nihilism is nothing but another weapon of the bourgeoisie against the patriotism of the people.

 

[Dachs]

I am just highly allergic to people who think that belonging to a group by the accident of their birth makes them somehow more worthy.

However, you're perfectly fine with people who think that other people belonging to a group - the Third World poor - by accident of their birth makes them somehow less worthy.

 

[warpus]

Every human is part of communities... Families, marriages, extended families, friendships, cities, provinces, nations..

Makes sense to feel proud when your community accomplishes something worthy enough. In that sense nationalism can be very positive and helpful.

It's blind nationalism.. the "rah rah we're #1, just cause" bs that's the bad kind of nationalism. Being proud of the accomplishments of your community is something all of us have felt at some point.

 

[Mise]

Tend to the plank in your eye ther Mise

I am, that's why I am not patriotic. Pride is a sin.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Pff, you're not even Christian. That by default makes you unfit to comment on anything Bible. Just Ask a Theologian IV.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think that racism and nationalism is an integral part of God's plan.

I mean, did we learn nothing from the Tower of Babel?

 

[Akka]

You make a good point with regard to jingoism/chauvinism, but isn't that also a possible outcome of the sentiment of patriotism?

Of course it's a possible outcome (I even specifically described bad things which could come from patriotism in my post).
But the fact is, we have several words precisely to describe several undertones. "patriotism" is the love of the country, it doesn't have any particular undertone beyond that.
The negative view, where you are ignorant/arrogant/partisan in your beliefs of national superiority, are precisely described as jingoism/chauvinism for a reason.

If not, what word would you use to define the love/dedication to your country, without negative undertones ?

 

[Carras Dad]

yeah, the third batman kind of sucked. but then, the second was only rescued by ledger's performance as well.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Ledger was fantastic and his character was truly fascinating. Bane was just lame. Oh and he could break Batman's back without breaking a sweat but after Bruce spent malnourished months in a cave, he came back stronger than EVAH and took it to Bane.

 

[MobBoss]

I am, that's why I am not patriotic. Pride is a sin.

Oh please.

I would say that your pride (i.e. sin) in yourself renders you unable to simply acknowledge what the original root words in hebrew mean here (one of the definitions of pride is the refusal to acknolwedge truth), and how our single word of 'pride' doesnt exactly do the translation justice. If anything, that kind of self-pride would be just as big a sin as you deem patriotism if not more so.

So /meh at your flaccid attempt at self-righteousness. You're about as accurate on this as you were on how long Al-Megrahi would stay alive. That is...not very.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

one of the definitions of pride is the refusal to acknowledge truth

What are the others?

 

[Berzerker]

standing over some guy you just knocked out raising your fist to the Heavens and thanking Jesus

eh, maybe thats just ironic

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Ledger was fantastic and his character was truly fascinating. Bane was just lame. Oh and he could break Batman's back without breaking a sweat but after Bruce spent malnourished months in a cave, he came back stronger than EVAH and took it to Bane.

1) Ledger's Joker was far more Riddler than Joker in how he went about his crimes. And come on, the Joker's plans were so ridiculously contrived it defied all logic, and not in a good way. A great performance, but not a great written character.

2) Obviously you weren't paying attention to the movie or you would have understood the two Bane/Batman faceoffs. In the first fight, Bane himself says that Batman is too used to being the strongest guy in a fight making him unprepared when the tables are turned. In the second fight, Bane actually still gets some monster hits on Batman, but Batman relearned to fight smart i.e. go for weak points, move fast, stuff like that.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Oh yeah those are some persuasive 'finer points' in that fight!

Why do you think I care about how Riddler-esque the Joker is?

Nothing tops 20k cops trapped underground for months but still ready to street battle upon release for contrivence.

I owe you a PM on Batman 3 though, I haven't forgotten to post on it or PM you.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Oh yeah those are some persuasive 'finer points' in that fight!

Why do you think I care about how Riddler-esque the Joker is?

Nothing tops 20k cops trapped underground for months but still ready to street battle upon release for contrivence.

I owe you a PM on Batman 3 though, I haven't forgotten to post on it or PM you.

I do admit that I love how all he cops come out of there clean shaven and ready to go.

 

[Leoreth]

Why are you looking for logic in a superhero movie? The narrative is traditionally more important than strict realism in that genre.

 

[Mise]

(one of the definitions of pride is the refusal to acknolwedge truth)

The bible is the ultimate source of truth and it says that pride is a sin.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Some internet guy on Bible-pride:

Why is pride so sinful? Pride is giving ourselves the credit for something that God has accomplished. Pride is taking the glory that belongs to God alone and keeping it for ourselves. Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” (1 Corinthians 4:7). That is why we give God the glory—He alone deserves it.

I guess the country-wide translation is that being proud of the achievements of a country is sinful when these achievements can be directly related to for instance the presence of natural resources or geographic location, which were put there by God.

But the Bible also speaks of a 'good' sort of pride. Which is

The Bible also speaks of a good form of pride, but there is a difference - it's based on a pride for others who are living in obedience to God.

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. Open your hearts to us; we have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one. I do not say this to condemn you, for I said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together. I have great confidence in you; I have great pride in you" (2 Corinthians 7:1-4 RSV)

Being proud of others who display themselves in a humble way.

Now I'm having problems seeing how the American sort of patriotism is anywhere close to being humble, and not including themselves in the scope.

USA #1
Numbers, 1. 1

 

[Traitorfish]

Why are you looking for logic in a superhero movie? The narrative is traditionally more important than strict realism in that genre.

The Dark Knight trilogy puts so much emphasis on its purported-realism, though, that something like this looks less like a mild suspension of reality and more like plain old silliness.

Mind, if there's one thing that DKR made clear, it's that Nolan's "realism" was always a visual aesthetic rather than anything really substantial, we'd just been willing to pretend otherwise, so...