Islam and fascism (split from IS thread)

[brennan]

The well known study from before Jihadism increased the amount of worldwide terrorism by an order of magnitude. Yes I remember that utterly unconvincing argument too.

 

[Funky]

If we want to have true alternative to Islam, we may want to look to Confucianism and/or Taoism for inspiration instead of banging our heads on 'Liberal values' because those tolerate the very things that are dangerous to it and in fact have a common origin with Islam that could make it self-destruct.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Liberal principles, like equal rights, freedom of religion, women's rights etc by definition do not tolerate ideas which are opposed to these principles.

Basically, I'm saying our own civilisation currently offers no alternative to Islam in the same way the philosophical traditions of the Far east do. Just as China, Korea and Japan adopted Western ideas to survive, we may have to borrow from them to accomplish the same.

While I agree that Eastern religions are far more inspiring and less conducive of violence than the Abrahamic ones, the solution to our problems will hardly be to all convert to Taoism.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Liberal principles, like equal rights, freedom of religion, women's rights etc by definition do not tolerate ideas which are opposed to these principles.

On the contrary - a liberal democracy guarantees the right to hold and express beliefs opposed to liberal democracy. Most modern ones don't allow you to express those beliefs in public if doing so is likely to harm others, but they absolutely tolerate your holding them.

 

[Borachio]

I don't suppose the Nazi party was opposed to a person holding any view about anything at all... as long as they didn't express it. Or the view conformed with the party line.

Still, maybe I'm being unfair. But the thought did occur to me. So I typed it out, as is my wont. And my right under a liberal democracy. Unless I'm guilty of corrupting young minds, I guess.

 

[brennan]

I'd say a Totalitariam regime is exactly the sort that really would want to police your thoughts.

 

[Borachio]

I don't see how they could. They can police what you say and do, to a greater or lesser extent. But I don't see how they can control what you think.

But of course, they may WANT to do so, I'll admit.

And by controlling the information you have access to, I guess to a very limited degree maybe they can succeed. The truth will out, though, one way or another.

 

[Funky]

On the contrary - a liberal democracy guarantees the right to hold and express beliefs opposed to liberal democracy. Most modern ones don't allow you to express those beliefs in public if doing so is likely to harm others, but they absolutely tolerate your holding them.

Free speech itself is perhaps the most important liberal principle. I am actually opposed to the protective democracy we have in Germany which disallows certain views. Have limitless free speech and put the ideas out there. The populace is smart enough to distinguish good ideas from bad ones (sometimes better than their government).
But other principles, like civil rights or women's rights make it clear where the border is drawn. You are free to say anything you like in public, like that women are worth less than men and should cover up. And everyone is free to publicly shame you for that. But when you start forcing girls to wear hijabs, you have crossed the line.

 

[tetley]

Speaking of policing people's thoughts: his about the opening of a thread titled "Islam and fascism" and making it an RD thread. Nope, no suggestion there.

 

[Funky]

It got split off from the IS thread. Neither did I name it, nor make it RD. It's in the title man. Jesus Christ.

 

[Borachio]

What's Jesus Christ got to do with it? I'm very confused. I thought the topic was Islam and Fascism.

 

[Tigranes]

^^ He meant it as a "Geee" sound. Which I personally very upset about based on the 3rd Commandment.

Returning back to the topic I want to ask what is the main difference in Islamic interpretation on beheading between the IS version and the one practiced by Saudi state?

A young man facing beheading and crucifixion was tortured and sentenced for political reasons, according to rights groups and a source close to his family calling for a halt to his execution.

Ali Mohammed al-Nimr was arrested in 2012 when he was 17 years old for participating in a protest. He was later sentenced to death for joining a criminal group and attacking police forces in proceedings which a United Nations body said "fell short of international standards."

The conviction was upheld this week by Saudi Arabia's highest court, and the execution could take place at any time. Al-Nimr's family has appealed for Saudi King Salman bin Abdulaziz to issue a pardon during the current Muslim holiday period of Eid.

 

[Tigranes]

While I agree that Eastern religions are far more inspiring and less conducive of violence than the Abrahamic ones, the solution to our problems will hardly be to all convert to Taoism.

In 845, Taoist Emperor Wuzong of the Tang Dynasty initiated the "Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution" in an effort to appropriate war funds by stripping Buddhism of its financial wealth and to drive "foreign" influences from China. Wuzong forced all Buddhist clergy into lay life or into hiding and confiscated their property. During this time, followers of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Manichaeanism and Zoroastrianism were persecuted as well. The persecution lasted for twenty months before Emperor Xuanzong ascended the throne and put forth a policy of tolerance in 846

 

[tetley]

What's Jesus Christ got to do with it? I'm very confused. I thought the topic was Islam and Fascism.

And aren't those TWO topics?

 

[Funky]

^^ He meant it as a "Geee" sound. Which I personally very upset about based on the 3rd Commandment.

I actually meant it more as a "Why do I have to deal with this pathetic distraction attempt by a white guilt riddled kid in his early 20s who knows nothing at all about the topic and thinks 9/11 was conducted by America?" sound.
And it speaks for the power and versatility of Jesus that his name can serve as an abbreviation for that.

As for al-Nimr, for those who followed my contributions to this thread it should not come as a surprise that the reason this young man will most likely be executed is his participation in a protest. A central aspect of fascist ideologies is that dissenters receive harsh punishment. This is the case for al-Nimr in Saudi Arabia, as well as for the Islamic ideology in general, where there is no major school which rejects the tenet that apostates should be killed.
What is noteworthy in al-Nimr's case is that his decapitated corpse will be tied to a cross and set up for public display. This is indeed the same kind of punishment that ISIS employs.

Moderator Action: The first line is flaming in an RD thread. Discuss the post, not the poster.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[tetley]

I could retaliate and point out the folly in the next candidate for a nursing home who takes the Lord's name in vain and thinks he knows the topic more than he does and has no guilt at all for ad hominem attacks on entire groups of people different from him and likes fries and Geritol with his spoon-fed "information" from the mainstream media, but good thing I don't have to retaliate. I'm a grown adult. Who are you?

It's supposed to be an RD thread. Nice.

Moderator Action: Flaming in an RD thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[tetley]

So anyway, back on topic: I take issue with the topic.

This thread could go off and discuss rugby or cricket as far as I'm concerned, and the subject line is still suggestive. In some parts of Europe, it's not even legal to call someone a fascist. What if we just compare Islam and fascism to the Judeofascist regime supplanting Palestine? We're calling everyone fascists, but keep it civil, folks. We're all intellectuals here.

 

[Tigranes]

We're calling everyone fascists, but keep it civil, folks. We're all intellectuals here.

I know it's a joke and off-topic but how intellectual can pole dancing possibly be ? Also most commercially farmed chicken eggs intended for human consumption are unfertilized, since the laying hens are kept without roosters. Therefore comparing eggs with fetuses is like comparing menstruation with abortion.

Returning to the topic -- Fascism (/fæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism. Islam obviously transcends narrow definition of the nationalism, even though, unlike virtually any other faith, it does introduce the idea of the political kingdom of Islam on earth with political leader -- caliph.

 

[Bootstoots]

So anyway, back on topic: I take issue with the topic.

This thread could go off and discuss rugby or cricket as far as I'm concerned, and the subject line is still suggestive. In some parts of Europe, it's not even legal to call someone a fascist. What if we just compare Islam and fascism to the Judeofascist regime supplanting Palestine? We're calling everyone fascists, but keep it civil, folks. We're all intellectuals here.

The definition of fascism is certainly debatable, but it's not just a snarl word used to insult beliefs that the snarler doesn't like. As Tigranes said, it's generally defined as a type of authoritarian nationalism. There was a long digression in the IS thread about connections between Islam and (historical) fascism, and to what extent current Islamists can be called fascists, so the subject makes sense. I made it an RD thread because it's split off an RD thread, and I figured I'd leave it with the same prefix as its parent.

Maybe I should have titled it "Islamism and Fascism" instead, though. I can change it -would people here prefer that?

 

[Formaldehyde]

it would certainly be far more accurate. But Funky has maintained all along that this is endemic with Islam in general, despite his source apparently saying otherwise.

 

[abradley]

ISLAMO-FASCISM
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guideDesc.asp?catid=183&type=issue

....

This section of DiscoverTheNetworks takes the position that "Islamo-fascism" is both a valid term and a legitimate topic for intellectual discussion. In the post-9/11 era, the West has been forced to confront the undeniably widespread existence of a radical Islamic movement that seeks to expand its dominion over all the nations, and ultimately to establish on a worldwide scale a caliphate governed by strict adherence to Islamic law. The means by which this brand of Islam aims to achieve its expansionist goals is jihad, or holy war, a longstanding Muslim tradition rooted in violence and the subjugation or murder of nonbelievers.

The term “Islamo-fascism” made its first entry into the English language in September 1990, when the Scottish historian Malise Ruthven, writing in Britain’s Independent newspaper, described how traditional Arab dictatorships used religious appeals in order to maintain their iron grip on political power.

More recently, Christopher Hitchens has pointed out numerous parallels between Islamo-fascism and the brand of fascism that was introduced to the world by the likes of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis:

"Both movements are based on a cult of murderous violence that exalts death and destruction and despises the life of the mind. … Both are hostile to modernity (except when it comes to the pursuit of weapons), and both are bitterly nostalgic for past empires and lost glories. Both are obsessed with real and imagined "humiliations" and thirsty for revenge. Both are chronically infected with the toxin of anti-Jewish paranoia … Both are inclined to leader worship and to the exclusive stress on the power of one great book. Both have a strong commitment to sexual repression—especially to the repression of any sexual 'deviance'—and to its counterparts, the subordination of the female and contempt for the feminine. Both despise art and literature as symptoms of degeneracy and decadence; both burn books and destroy museums and treasures."

A basic tenet of German fascism was the notion of a master race and its superiority to all others. The Islamo-fascist variant of this is what Hitchens calls the concept of “the ‘pure’ and the ‘exclusive’ over the unclean and the kufar or profane.”

......

Much more at Discover the Networks http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/default.asp